The General Wrestling Thread

[FedEx227]

Totally agreed. And I'm not with Larry, I think he's being elevated albeit by complete accident.

[LiquidLarry2GhostWF]

He is being elevated. A blind man should be able to see that. He's over more & more every week.

Like most WWE pushes that work, they are arriving there backwards & accidentally. But they are arriving there.

He shouldn't be champion yet. Way too soon for that. Chase hasn't gone on nearly long enough. They've played the Dusty card as many times as they can now, though. Can't keep pulling that shit moving forward. The next time he wins it, he needs to keep it. I'd wait till Rumble or Mania for maximum impact.

Based on what?

He was already massively over after he beat Cena...the buzz meter hasn't gone up any more since. The reaction to Night of Champions was quite telling...he won the belt, the show went off air, and no one thought he was going to keep it once RAW ended. And he didn't. In what way could they "elevate" Bryan more than having him win the title clean, TWICE...having him win it a third time, clean...you're running around on a circle track. You're running to get to the same place over and over again.

[Warner2BruceTD]

They are walking a fine line with the dusty finishes. No argument from me.

Historically dusty finishes work great...when spaced out and done sparingly. They work so great, Dusty kept doing them over & over...and we all know how that ended.

If they peak this at Rumble (or better yet, Mania), it's a god damn grand slam home run. But they better do something fresh in the interim, because weekly beatdowns & dusty finishes can't go on for another 3-6 months.

[LiquidLarry2GhostWF]

I think you and Fed confuse my point...or are underrating how over he was after he beat Cena.

You guys are making it seem like I think Bryan isn't being elevated...and to a point...he's not...and its not because of this storyline...its because I already think he's elevated as high as he'll go chasing the title. He's already at the top with no more glass ceilings. My problem is that having him run around the track chasing, over and over again (and winning the title over and over), doesn't answer the question of whether or not he's a legitimate big time draw. I happen to think he is, so I'd prefer to not keep the question lingering and give him the ball like Steve Austin.

[FedEx227]

For context though, Austin didn't have the ball very long.

He won at WrestleMania, defended against Dude Love at Over the Edge and Unforgiven. Lost at King of the Ring, won it back the next night, defended against Undertaker at SummerSlam, lost at Breakdown and didn't get it back until WrestleMania XV.

I get what you're trying to say though but I'd argue Austin never really had the ball for long.

I just enjoyed the fact that title or not he was the sole focal point. And Warner, go back and watch those Austin raws, he was on every fucking segment, it's actually really bad when you go back and watch it. Austin walking backstage, AUSTIN HAS ARRIVED, HES IN HIS LOCKER ROOM, INTERVIEW, AUSTIN IS BACKSTAGE AND ANGRY! But, shit, the rocket was strapped to him.

[Warner2BruceTD]

And Warner, go back and watch those Austin raws, he was on every fucking segment, it's actually really bad when you go back and watch it. Austin walking backstage, AUSTIN HAS ARRIVED, HES IN HIS LOCKER ROOM, INTERVIEW, AUSTIN IS BACKSTAGE AND ANGRY! But, shit, the rocket was strapped to him.

In that sense, yes.

Put business aside for a second. Do we really want that again? I mean, I understand why they did that (WWE subtly hammer), but from an aesthetic standpoint those shows were the fucking pits unless you were ages 12-15. For all of the complaints about modern WWE, i'll take these shows over Attitude Era RAW's 100 times out of 100.

Also, Austin was the first guy where they didn't feel like they needed to have the title on the guy in order for them to have the ball. I'd argue Bryan has the ball right now.

[FedEx227]

No, absolutely would prefer what we're getting now. Those Attitude Era shows were great when I was 12, I can barely watch them these days.

I have no more complaints after last night, I think they have everything on a really awesome path and made up for a lot of mistakes I thought they made over the past few weeks.

[LiquidLarry2GhostWF]

For context though, Austin didn't have the ball very long.

He won at WrestleMania, defended against Dude Love at Over the Edge and Unforgiven. Lost at King of the Ring, won it back the next night, defended against Undertaker at SummerSlam, lost at Breakdown and didn't get it back until WrestleMania XV.

I get what you're trying to say though but I'd argue Austin never really had the ball for long.

I just enjoyed the fact that title or not he was the sole focal point. And Warner, go back and watch those Austin raws, he was on every fucking segment, it's actually really bad when you go back and watch it. Austin walking backstage, AUSTIN HAS ARRIVED, HES IN HIS LOCKER ROOM, INTERVIEW, AUSTIN IS BACKSTAGE AND ANGRY! But, shit, the rocket was strapped to him.

Austin had the ball for 6 months in an era when no one else had the ball longer than two and no one held it longer than that 180 days (not really counting that Kane day as a split of Austin's run) until like...2004. The second longest reign was Austin in 2001 at 175 days.

[LiquidLarry2GhostWF]

In that sense, yes.

Put business aside for a second. Do we really want that again? I mean, I understand why they did that (WWE subtly hammer), but from an aesthetic standpoint those shows were the fucking pits unless you were ages 12-15. For all of the complaints about modern WWE, i'll take these shows over Attitude Era RAW's 100 times out of 100.

Also, Austin was the first guy where they didn't feel like they needed to have the title on the guy in order for them to have the ball. I'd argue Bryan has the ball right now.

It was an era where they had a lot of guys that were over and didn't need the title...Austin, Rock, Foley, Undertaker...and they all just kind of played around with having the title...but of that group, it was Austin who got the title longer and was pushed hardest with the title. I need to re-check the list, but IIRC, when Austin was healthy and happy, they never went much longer than 6 months without putting the title back on Austin. It might have even been a shorter duration than that.

Of that "group" at the top in the Attitude Era the only guy I felt needed the title to be relevant was HHH, FWIW, and he didn't get involved in the title picture until late in the Era. His first title run was what...late 99...and I believe Austin was injured.

[LiquidLarry2GhostWF]

I just enjoyed the fact that title or not he was the sole focal point. And Warner, go back and watch those Austin raws, he was on every fucking segment, it's actually really bad when you go back and watch it. Austin walking backstage, AUSTIN HAS ARRIVED, HES IN HIS LOCKER ROOM, INTERVIEW, AUSTIN IS BACKSTAGE AND ANGRY! But, shit, the rocket was strapped to him.

Austin was fucking everywhere on those RAW IS WARs. They would have "Austin Watch" every Monday. They'd wait for the pick up to show up...because OH DAMN...AUSTIN'S GONNA BE PISSED WHEN HE FINDS OUT WHAT MCMAHON HAD TO SAY AT THE TOP OF THE SHOW TONIGHT!! They'd open, close nearly every 15m segment with some sort of AUSTIN WATCH.

[Warner2BruceTD]

Would New Japan style booking with an emphasis on match results that rewards the viewer for remembering things, but with a heel/face/tweener dynamic and just enough wackiness like Prince Devitt the prick & Toru Yano & Yujiro the pervert etc work on some level in the US? I'm not talking challenge WWE, I'm talking at a level above TNA that actually fills a niche and makes money?

I'm not talking 90's All Japan pure sport, here. New Japan clearly isn't that. Its a blend of everything.

[LiquidLarry2GhostWF]

Would New Japan style booking with an emphasis on match results that rewards the viewer for remembering things, but with a heel/face/tweener dynamic and just enough wackiness like Prince Devitt the prick & Toru Yano & Yujiro the pervert etc work on some level in the US? I'm not talking challenge WWE, I'm talking at a level above TNA that actually fills a niche and makes money?

I'm not talking 90's All Japan pure sport, here. New Japan clearly isn't that. Its a blend of everything.

So, basically, what you're asking is...will a wrestling show that makes sense work in the United States?

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say...yes.

New Japan is what a secondary American promotion should have directed itself toward post-WCW. The WWE fills the niche of the pure sports entertainment...and New Japan is sports entertainment, too...but it doesn't forget the "sports" aspect of the show. It still presents itself as a real sports based competition. The WWE forgot that concept decades ago and I think there is still a major niche of the wrestling market share that would tune into it. It might be more regional...but I think I think it could gain a bigger piece of the market share (even as a crossover) than say, TNA has in a decade of being around.

[Warner2BruceTD]

There have never been less overall people watching wrestling on a weekly basis on TV & at arenas in the United States/Canada then there have been since the territories died, and then WCW.

Is it too late to get all of those lost viewers back? Do they even exist anymore?

[LiquidLarry2GhostWF]

There have never been less overall people watching wrestling on a weekly basis on TV & at arenas in the United States/Canada then there have been since the territories died, and then WCW.

Is it too late to get all of those lost viewers back? Do they even exist anymore?

You can't get all of those viewers back and they exist, but getting them back is going to be very difficult. Those Southern Territory fans never came back after WCW died and some hotbeds of wrestling never bounced back after their territory went out of business or were gobbled up by Vince.

[s@ppisgod]

Austin was fucking everywhere on those RAW IS WARs. They would have "Austin Watch" every Monday. They'd wait for the pick up to show up...because OH DAMN...AUSTIN'S GONNA BE PISSED WHEN HE FINDS OUT WHAT MCMAHON HAD TO SAY AT THE TOP OF THE SHOW TONIGHT!! They'd open, close nearly every 15m segment with some sort of AUSTIN WATCH.

Yeah, those Raws were 95% Austin and 5% whatever else they wanted to throw together. I'm actually surprised they didn't go further with it, like when cutting from matches to show him driving into the arena. "Who gives a shit about Val Venis vs. X-pac, everybody look at the Titantron! Austin's here! Stop wrestling, guys. Austin's here!"