The General Wrestling Thread

[FedEx227]

It's amazing that 1998 WWF was as successful as it was when you look at how big of a loss Bret Hart and HBK within months of one another was. I'd imagine we'd think of the era much more fondly if we still had those 2 awesome workers, in their primes, competing, engaging in feuds, etc. When you really look at it WWF exploded when Austin was headlining PPVs with Dude fucking Love (no offense but c'mon). Really shows just how powerful the story of Austin/McMahon and still at that point Undertaker/Kane was. The rest was a giant pile of shit.

[LiquidLarry2GhostWF]

Listening to Gabe Sapolsky on with Bryan Alvarez.

He said with ECW Arena closing down, he can't find building to run in the northeast. BB King's in New York doesnt want them back because they said the wrestling fans didnt buy enough food or alcohol. ACE Arena in Jersey closed down. His building in Boston has new owners who wont answer his emails.

Sorta explains why EVOLVE is running in front of 25 people in Florida and North Carolina.

A few of my boys up in Jersey have made mention that there aren't many joints holding Indy wrestling these days and they haven't been to a show in some of the regular spots in a while.

Ol boy should at least look into the random Moose Clubs.

[EmpireWF]

1992 WWF > anything

It's amazing that 1998 WWF was as successful as it was when you look at how big of a loss Bret Hart and HBK within months of one another was. I'd imagine we'd think of the era much more fondly if we still had those 2 awesome workers, in their primes, competing, engaging in feuds, etc. When you really look at it WWF exploded when Austin was headlining PPVs with Dude fucking Love (no offense but c'mon).

That's a testament to how fucking red hot the business was at the time when you have over 10 million people tuning in on some Monday nights to watch pro wrestling.

Say what you want about the helter skelter nature of those Attitude Era RAWs....those crowds are sooooooo hot. They make the modern crowds look like they're filled with old church going women (and not the ones who'd go to southern wrasslin in the day to boo the fuck out of heels).

[Warner2BruceTD]

A few of my boys up in Jersey have made mention that there aren't many joints holding Indy wrestling these days and they haven't been to a show in some of the regular spots in a while.

Ol boy should at least look into the random Moose Clubs.

EVOLVE is in Flyers Skate Zone in Vorhees this Saturday, where the Flyers practice. Its a double header with CZW, so he didnt say this, but obviously the cost of running that building is pretty high since they are chopping it up.

He's got something big planned for this WrestleCon. He keeps hinting that something large is culminating there. And not in a promoter speak sort of way. He's been cryptic on twitter about it, too.

[s@ppisgod]

The Attitude Era is remembered for a few things...

Steve Austin v. Vince McMahon clips...15m Austin segments on 2h RAWs all of a suddenly made RAW epic.
The Rock
The nWo...which really was only good until October...once Piper showed up
WCW's Cruserweights
ECW clips.
GOLBERG!!! RAWR!

When taken in samples...sounds like the Attitude Era was loads of awesome. Because all of that shit was awesome.

But what they don't remember is...

The countless WCW B-flick level gimmicks.
The countless WWF B-flick level gimmicks.
The nWo never getting their comeuppance and shuffling 3/4 of the roster in the stable.
The WCW main event being absolutely putrid.
ECW toiling in obscurity after all of the major stars left for the WWE and WCW.
Russo's Crash Booking with short, shit matches, lots of corny backstage vignettes and gimmicks and 25m long promos after the "Rock This Is Your Life" segment got a major spike in ratings.

It should be no shock that the WWE had their greatest PPV just weeks after the Attitude Era. The Attitude Era had a lot of awesome moments...but on the whole...people kind of forget how bad things were.

I kind of like the WWE era right after the Invasion Angle...the Smackdown Six era was pretty good WWE TV, IMO. Pre-Attitude Era (using Survivor Series 97 as a benchmark) was pretty awesome with The Hart Foundation, Austin pre-Vince overload, Brian Pillman, Goldust, Birth of Austin 3:16, Bret v. Owen, Hart v. Michaels pre-Montreal, first go-around of Mankind-Undertaker, Michaels beastly 1996 run, Austin-Hart, et al. I also prefer WCW before Hogan showed up and ECW before it became mainstream.

Attitude Era was a bit before the internet really went HAM with wrestling...so it seemed like there was never more wrestling available to the masses...couple it with Russo-tastic booking...and, a lot of the shit is so forgettable and happened so much, that people forget it happened...

The good stuff was awesome. The bad stuff was a lot more frequent than people remember it.

Piper really did halt a lot of momentum. He seems awful on the mic. Very non-sensical and always having to have his mic cut. Awful move to bring him in, like 99% of the WCW's late career acquisitions, like Earthquake and Bossman.

Honestly, the best thing the 90's had going for it aside from competition was the crowds. They were eevety bit as into it as the 80's crowds, but they had more energy it seemed like. The southern crowds were usually very hot for WCW and WWF had a lot of hormonal teenagers and young adults. The openings for Raw were always strong, as they'd pan a crowd that was usually going nuts. And WCW had their high points with the Horsemen reunion and the big Goldberg match where their crowds were as raucous as any.

Also, you missed DDP and Crow Sting. Sting was the biggest thing going in 97. The Hart Foundation as American heels and international faces is one of the best, most well thought-out angles ever. Very unique, and for some crazy reason never gets it's due next to IMO lesser angles like Vince/Austin and the Corporate Ministry angle.

[LiquidLarry2GhostWF]

I've still yet to hear a crowd pop for a moment like the Georgia Dome popped for Goldberg squashing Hogan. One of the biggest splooges I've seen a crowd do in wrestling. He picks him up for the Jackhammer and as he slams him its a big gush of semen all over the place.

The nWo was hot hot hot, IMO for a few months...then you had Bischoff try and McMahon himself into it, Piper showed up and half assed it...they started turning half the roster (really jumped the shark when they had Perfect turn on the Horsemen) and adding nWo Japan and shit and adding some real bums to the squad. Brutal stuff. By the end of '96, it was unwatchable.

[s@ppisgod]

1992 WWF > anything



That's a testament to how fucking red hot the business was at the time when you have over 10 million people tuning in on some Monday nights to watch pro wrestling.

Say what you want about the helter skelter nature of those Attitude Era RAWs....those crowds are sooooooo hot. They make the modern crowds look like they're filled with old church going women (and not the ones who'd go to southern wrasslin in the day to boo the fuck out of heels).

Agreed. The crowds today, and culture in general, is just soooo apathetic that it hurts the product. In the 90's, it was the opposite. The crowds helped get angles over with the audience at home by getting into it as much as they did.

[FedEx227]

I've still yet to hear a crowd pop for a moment like the Georgia Dome popped for Goldberg squashing Hogan. One of the biggest splooges I've seen a crowd do in wrestling. He picks him up for the Jackhammer and as he slams him its a big gush of semen all over the place.

The nWo was hot hot hot, IMO for a few months...then you had Bischoff try and McMahon himself into it, Piper showed up and half assed it...they started turning half the roster (really jumped the shark when they had Perfect turn on the Horsemen) and adding nWo Japan and shit and adding some real bums to the squad. Brutal stuff. By the end of '96, it was unwatchable.

End of 97?

[FedEx227]

Agreed. The crowds today, and culture in general, is just soooo apathetic that it hurts the product. In the 90's, it was the opposite. The crowds helped get angles over with the audience at home by getting into it as much as they did.

I think that largely has to do with the makeup of the crowd. Just as someone who attended then to now, the crowds are so different. There were kids in those days, but it was mostly 16-34 year old males. At least in Chicago these days it's mostly kids and Mexican families with a smattering of older males.

[Warner2BruceTD]

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All that was missing was Harold.

I wonder if Daniel Bryan had creative input on the Kane hug.

[LiquidLarry2GhostWF]

The WWE needs purchase the rights to use Final Countdown.

[JimLeavy59]

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

Interesting how Gabe Sapolsky basically admitted that he peaked as a booker around 2006, which is something we've discussed here. I exchanged some messages with him earlier today, looks like he'll be coming back on the VSN podcast soon.

[Bigpapa42]

The good stuff was awesome. The bad stuff was a lot more frequent than people remember it.

Agree all the way around, Larry. That period was my heyday as a fan and I look back on it with a lot of nostalgia. But going back and watching... a lot of it doesn't hold up. We remember the good stuff, but seem to have forgotten the not-so-good. There was a lot of crap wrestling. I mean the DOA, Los Barriquous, Steve Blackman, a lot of the WCW main event matches... Blackman might have been believable as a badass but he sucked as a wrestler. And there was plenty of shit angles, too. They managed to do into overkill mode on stuff like Austin-McMahon and some DX stuff, but there was outright crap like the Hawk's a drunk storyline.

I think some of the "it was all awesome" nostalgia comes from fans who didn't really watch through that era. There seem to be a lot of wrestling fans online who watched through it only as little kids (so their perspective is kinda skewed) or who didn't watch at all. Some go back and watch pieces, but its not like watching show by show to see the week to week booking.

Personally I don't think WCW stuff holds up any better. There was a lot of crap going on during any WCW period, and that's true right back to '89 when you had awesome main events with Flair, Steamboat, Funk, and so on. The midcard during the mid 90s was amazing but there was tons of crap. Stupid and pointless angles, guys who got hyped to hell and then disappeared, and the never-ending run of the New World Order.

I never want to discourage any fans from liking what they want to like. But anyone who tries to say that the Attitude era was a true "golden period" or without its flaws isn't being realistic.

[Warner2BruceTD]

I have to put my elitist hat on here, but do you know what holds up better than anything else?

Early 90's All Japan. Those matches are just as awesome now through 2012 eyes.

And the best storyline is always "this young rising guy has never beaten this superstar established veteran guy, and when will it finally happen?". All Japan got more mileage out of that basic, simple story, and for some reason NOBODY uses it anymore.