Top 10 GOAT Heavyweight Champs

[ThunderHorse]

Another Article... more so parallel with my feelings of the fight, and Joe Frazier

History remembers this moment as Ali lasting just a little bit longer than Frazier. It has added to his legend. As far a Frazier while still considered one of the greatest of all time his name will always be second to Ali not because of him, but because of someone else's decision.

Since watching the bitterness of Joe Frazier in the HBO Documentary including a very heartless voicemail where he proudly proclaims to be the cause of Ali's Parkinson disease a lot of people believe he should simply just get over it.

It is easy to say that, but just look at Frazier. He is living on top of a rundown gym in one of the worst parts of Philadelphia while Ali sold off 80% stake of his likeness and name for 50 million dollars. If Ali quits on his stool and Frazier wins does that change anything? I don't know, but I know if I was Frazier it will kill me inside not knowing and more importantly knowing that I wasn't the one who made the decision to throw in the towel.

[Shayn•Da•Pain]

It's conventional wisdom Ali told Dundee to cut off his gloves...

everyone knows this.



if you want the full link to the article... let me know.

LOL I linked the full article in that same post you just quoted. It's the link...right there. Looks like a link. You click on it and it links you to the page...what else do you need a map?

I'm sorry, I think I need some coffee or something. I don't mean to be a jerk. We're splitting hairs. Who gives a shit right? lol Ali is great, Frazier is great, lets all go gay bash scud what ya say???

[Shayn•Da•Pain]

Another Article... more so parallel with my feelings of the fight, and Joe Frazier

Link to the article or it never happend.

[FirstTimer]

Okay...

So Ali is sitting here, he's exhausted, hes been beaten near death, he can barely walk, is barely able to move as it is, his body is on fire and he is near collapse.

yeah he's so bad of shape that for the last 4 rounds or so he has been beating Frazier to a pulp so badly Frazier can't even see. Ali wasn't in a wheelchair. He had just sat down from hammering Frazier mercilessly.

Yes he was absolutely exhausted, perhaps more so than in his entire life but let's not also forget the beating he was inflicting on Frazier seconds before in the ring.

but fuck it, he still is going to sit here and scream bullshit out loud to make it a show.

He was known for doing that his entire career. During the last rounds of his bout with Foreman he was talking to him, asking him questions, taunting him, and Ali was getting pounded on that fight as well.

It had happened before.

Ali always had a habit of talking shit and even yelling at other fighters corners.

sorry, but I think the "show" part of it was over for Ali once Frazier started turning beating the life out of his body.

Obviously it wasn't. There's a story of Ali talking to Frazier during the middle of the fight about being washed up after Frazier had layed into him.

Hell he had enough energy after the fight to brag about how he was now the greatest ever and all that stuff...

you give Ali far to much credit... Ali is certainly one of the greatest... but he wasn't invincible.

Not saying he was. He could obviously lose. But I also think you are taking it to far saying Ali "gave up" without really taking into account the evaluation of the man and his persona and habits.

Ali was the GOAT for sure. Joe Frazier IMO was the toughest of all time without a doubt.

[ThunderHorse]

Christ...

then why deny the fact that Ali gave up?

no, lets pretend that Ali didn't want to give up, and just happily continue on believing that Ali pretty much dominated and won the fight.

the original point was... it's an insult to boxing to have characters like Larry Holmes and Evander Holyfield on a top 10 for heavyweights, but exclude Joe Frazier... ESPECIALLY considering that arguably Ali NEVER truly bested him, yet he is your #1.

I could give a damn whether he beat Ali or not, its just a stupid excuse to say his 37 fights and his "brawling style" (which is complete bullshit) is the reason he isn't on a top 10 all time list.

[nflman2033]

Tyson has nowhere near the wins Joe had

Joe beat Ali, fought Ali to death every time and fought in great era of HWs

Foreman would have destroyed Tyson just like Lennox did, Tyson would have folded against Frazier after he hit him a couple times and Joe was still standing

Tyson best win was probably Spinks, but my memory fight be foggy, Spinks was pretty much a small HW and fought a bunch at the lighter weights, he was just over matched against Tyson and was never in that fight mentally

Tyson was a freak if nature, but he never showed much heart after not being a head in a fight

yeah i got into an argument with a guy about who did Tyson beat and he said Spinks, and I said, who was Spinks but a former Light Heavyweight Champ who beat a past his Prime Holmes almost a whole decade before he fought Tyson. I don't think Spinks could have beat Holmes both in their primes just as Tyson beatt and even much further past his prime Holmes, even then still in that fight when Holmes got on his toes and started to box like he did in his prime Tyson had no answer he just took the shots until Holmes tired and got knocked out.

as far as the Rocky in worst era of Heavyweights is a complete Joke, pretty much since the 80's there is maybe one dominate Heavyweight you go from Holmes to Tyson to Lewis then to basically nobody maybe W.Klitschko. by far right now is the weakest HW division of alltime.

oh i will also step in that if you look up the term Bum of the Month you will see that it was the term coined when Joe Louis was fighting bums in order to make money because of how much debt he was in, so while I am huge Louis fan he depleted the HW division and fought a bunch of bums to get his long title defense streak. I will say that no other figher in the history of the sport has ever united the american public, Ali has become an american beloved hero, however when he was champ the American People were always divided. That is one thing no one else has ever done.

[FirstTimer]

Ok whoa timeout. Ali never truly bested Frazier? Come on now. Ali won the second fight. Sure it was a snooze fest compared to the first and the last but Ali clearly won that fight.

I'm not knocking on Frazier either. IMO he'd easily be in my top 10. Perhaps close to being in the Top 5. I'd rank him easily around 6 or 7.

[ThunderHorse]

yeah he's so bad of shape that for the last 4 rounds or so he has been beating Frazier to a pulp so badly Frazier can't even see. Ali wasn't in a wheelchair. He had just sat down from hammering Frazier mercilessly.

Yes he was absolutely exhausted, perhaps more so than in his entire life but let's not also forget the beating he was inflicting on Frazier seconds before in the ring.


He was known for doing that his entire career. During the last rounds of his bout with Foreman he was talking to him, asking him questions, taunting him, and Ali was getting pounded on that fight as well.

It had happened before.

Ali always had a habit of talking shit and even yelling at other fighters corners.


Obviously it wasn't. There's a story of Ali talking to Frazier during the middle of the fight about being washed up after Frazier had layed into him.

Hell he had enough energy after the fight to brag about how he was now the greatest ever and all that stuff...


Not saying he was. He could obviously lose. But I also think you are taking it to far saying Ali "gave up" without really taking into account the evaluation of the man and his persona and habits.

Ali was the GOAT for sure. Joe Frazier IMO was the toughest of all time without a doubt.

Joe was still landing, no ones denying the fact he was being beat to death, but he was still hitting Ali.

Your also mistaken on the Foreman fight... Ali had Foreman already beaten, Foreman was so exhausted going into those last few rounds that Ali knew he had him finished and it was only a matter of time.

Even if you take that all out... no one can deny the look in his eyes after he finds out Frazier isn't coming out... its pure shock, you can read it all over his face, the relief is so visible its almost sickening.

I don't know what else it takes, everyone knows he's begging for his trainer to throw in the towel, and when he finds out he's going to win because Joe isn't coming out, it just reaffirms it. fact of the matter is, Ali was ready to give up, he said it, and it was physically obvious after the referee informed everyone.

[Shayn•Da•Pain]

Christ...

then why deny the fact that Ali gave up?

no, lets pretend that Ali didn't want to give up, and just happily continue on believing that Ali pretty much dominated and won the fight.

the original point was... it's an insult to boxing to have characters like Larry Holmes and Evander Holyfield on a top 10 for heavyweights, but exclude Joe Frazier... ESPECIALLY considering that arguably Ali NEVER truly bested him, yet he is your #1.

I could give a damn whether he beat Ali or not, its just a stupid excuse to say his 37 fights and his "brawling style" (which is complete bullshit) is the reason he isn't on a top 10 all time list.

Hey mack, chill the fuck out. You go make your own list and stay on coocoo island or whatever while I keep my list and stay on another island far far away.

Fact is I think Frazier was one hell of a fighter. You're acting like I think he was a Bum. In fact I listed in this article he was right there at number 10 for me. I just personally think the guys I put on the list could beat Frazier. That's my pesonal oppinion. So you form your own oppinion and keep it. Say it here even,shit I'd like to discuss it with you.

So I like Tyson over Frazier? Hell yes, as I said it before, Tyson had defense as well as two deadly arms. Frazier didn't have great D, it was just bobblehead under and hit the gut....that's what I saw from Frazier most...oh and his overhand left. It was a thing of beauty. But IMO Tyson, Lennox, Foreman could beat him because of defense mostly.

It was just his wins or style. It was for me more or less about it was hard for Frazier to beat boxers with good D and power punches combined...These guys all got that...Except maybe Lennox, but I like Lennox too much to change my mind o that.

[nflman2033]

Christ...

then why deny the fact that Ali gave up?

no, lets pretend that Ali didn't want to give up, and just happily continue on believing that Ali pretty much dominated and won the fight.

the original point was... it's an insult to boxing to have characters like Larry Holmes and Evander Holyfield on a top 10 for heavyweights, but exclude Joe Frazier... ESPECIALLY considering that arguably Ali NEVER truly bested him, yet he is your #1.

I could give a damn whether he beat Ali or not, its just a stupid excuse to say his 37 fights and his "brawling style" (which is complete bullshit) is the reason he isn't on a top 10 all time list.

my issue with Frazier was how short his reign of dominance was, he got the decision over Ali, then after two title defenses he gets completely embarassed by Foreman, wins a fight on points, loses to Ali on points, gets a coule knockouts then Thrilla in Manilla followed by another bad loss to Foreman before ending his career with a draw, so while he was one of the greats I do not get completly up in arms when he isn't in the top 10, right now he is known more for his 1-4 recored vs Ali and Foreman than he is for his 31-0-1 record vs everyone else. I mean why fight so much for Frazier and no fighting for not having Sonny Liston on his at the very least HM list.

honestly don't know if i could come up with a top 10 list I would want to stick to and fight for because it is hard to compare guys from different eras, I love to speculate how Ali could beat anyone, however its something that can never be proven.. give me some time to think and I will come up with my opinion of a top 10.

the real fun list is top 10 pound for pound, now that list is a bitch

[FirstTimer]

Joe was still landing, no ones denying the fact he was being beat to death, but he was still hitting Ali.

Your also mistaken on the Foreman fight

Umm no I'm not. All I said was Ali was talkign shit to Foreman even after Foreman was wailing on him.

That's it.

Even if you take that all out... no one can deny the look in his eyes after he finds out Frazier isn't coming out... its pure shock, you can read it all over his face, the relief is so visible its almost sickening.

Any human would be relieved. The toll that fight took on both men was massive. Just because Ali looked relieved or overjoyed doesn't mean he would have not answered the bell for the 15th.

I would imagine Ali looked happy because he was still the heavyweight champ and had just won an absolute war of a boxing match.

Relief, obviously. He had been trying for 14 rounds to get Frazier to cave and finally did. I'd be relieved too. Ali wasn't invincible as you said earlier. He felt pain. I would imagine Joe had inflicted a lot upon him.

Ali wasn't invincible. He felt pain and felt emotion.

Frazier was a tougher fighter than Ali was. I won't dispute that. No one really would. But I'm not going to fault Ali for showing natural human emotion.

I don't know what else it takes, everyone knows he's begging for his trainer to throw in the towel, and when he finds out he's going to win because Joe isn't coming out, it just reaffirms it. fact of the matter is, Ali was ready to give up, he said it, and it was physically obvious after the referee informed everyone.

Again Ali said shit all the time. Dundee wasn't going to allow him to quit and Ali would have answered the bell for the 15th, thrown some jabs at a blind Frazier and won the fight. He had gutted out fights before.

No big deal.

[FirstTimer]

my issue with Frazier was how short his reign of dominance was, he got the decision over Ali, then after two title defenses he gets completely embarassed by Foreman, wins a fight on points, loses to Ali on points, gets a coule knockouts then Thrilla in Manilla followed by another bad loss to Foreman before ending his career with a draw, so while he was one of the greats I do not get completly up in arms when he isn't in the top 10, right now he is known more for his 1-4 recored vs Ali and Foreman than he is for his 31-0-1 record vs everyone else. I mean why fight so much for Frazier and no fighting for not having Sonny Liston on his at the very least HM list.

honestly don't know if i could come up with a top 10 list I would want to stick to and fight for because it is hard to compare guys from different eras, I love to speculate how Ali could beat anyone, however its something that can never be proven.. give me some time to think and I will come up with my opinion of a top 10.

the real fun list is top 10 pound for pound, now that list is a bitch

I would agree with you in a lot of ways.

I'm done with this hypothetical Thrilla in Manila stuff.

[nflman2033]

1) Ali -best of the strongest era
2) Louis - held title over many years
3) Jack Johnson - first great champ
4) Gene Tunney - first 'technical' boxer, still had KO power
5) Rocky Marciano - undefeated
6) Mike Tyson - in his prime, one of the best ever
7) Joe Frazier - I doubt anyone beneath him could beat him
8) Larry Holmes - great boxing skills, held title for a relatively long time
9) George Foreman - great career, but really 'the best' for a short period
10) Lennox Lewis - had to be ranked


FLAME AWAY!

fix your posts, on your list you say you doubt anyone below Frazier could beat him, when Foreman not only beat him twice he embarassed him like a little bitch. granted styles make fights and you can say Frazier was better, but lets be honest Frasier over Foreman I just done see it.

one thing I want to point out here while I am on this Foreman thing is Holyfield, I think he has been underrated in this thread, sure him sticking around way too long hurts him, however people don't seem to hold that against Tyson, the only knock on Holyfield in his prime is Bowe, who had a decent career, but it seems like people don't seem to give Holyfield credit for beating Foreman because of his age, but seriously George will tell you as well as many other experts, Old George would beat Young George, he had the same power with better skills, the only thing not there was speed and young Foreman was never about speed. Holyfield beat Foreman at the peak of his comeback which was before Foreman beat Moorer.

[Liquidrob]

A prime Lennox Lewis would have beat the Ali that beat Foreman and fought in the thrilla in manilla

He wouldnt have been sucked into the rope a dope like Foreman and I straight up brawl like Frazier

Lewis makes you fight his fight with superior boxing skills and size and would win a decision over Ali

[FirstTimer]

the real fun list is top 10 pound for pound, now that list is a bitch

I guess 3 of the guys in my top 5 would be:

Ali
Sugar Ray Robinson
Joe Louis