Top 10 GOAT Heavyweight Champs

[Senser81]

yeah, I probably am

really tough to gauge tyson, you have like 3 or 4 versions of him, but thats the info we have to go off of

you have young tyson, post cus tyson, after jail tyson and sideshow tyson

Here is my favorite sideshow Tyson fight. Lasted about 30 seconds.

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1sAuzEZAMY&feature=related[/media]

[FirstTimer]

My point is that I think you are being too critical of Tyson "folding" and not being able to stand up to people that weren't afraid of him (Tyson really had no trouble handling Mitch Green...credit Green for going the distance, but it wasn't a Creed-Balboa fight), while at the same time giving a pass to Lennox Lewis, who actually did fold to inferior fighters like McCall and Rahman.

I would agree, and it's part of the reason that I don't think Manilla Ali loses to Lewis. Lewis was too prone to having let down fights against inferior guys and losing. Even when Ali was past his prime during the Manilla and later years Ali never had those let down fights. He'd wipe the floor with marginal guys then have wars with the greats. Lewis always seemed to lack to constant focus to be an all-time great.

[dell71]

Damn, been away from this thread for a bit...let me jump back in here...

also, Ali just didnt have the KO power to take out Lewis with 1 shot, he would be at the end of Lennox's jab all night

Sonny Liston & the phantom punch disagree with you. Seriously, Ali is a bit underrated in the power department. Sure, he wasn't a KO artist but there's something to be said for accumulation of punches. And remember, Ali wasn't that much smaller than Lewis and much quicker, he'd probably be able to put his hands on Lennox a lot more times than anyone else has.

Lewis never had a problem winning a boring fight with his skills

True. Strangely, this is perhaps his greatest quality.

I think Lewis is a very underrated Heavyweight, however Rope A Dope wouldn't work in the way it worked against foreman as there was no way lewis would punch himself out, however where it would work is that Ali could use that in order to keep from getting tired out while he stayed on defense and took that last minute of the round, so i think it would probably go the distance, and likely be close, but I still think ALi would win enough rounds to get the win, but thats totally my opinion... however there is no question in my mind whatso ever that Prime Ali would not have to worry about Lewis.

also what Lewis are we talking pre or post Manny in his corner because he was a much better fighter once he started being trained by Steward

Agreed. However, even though Ali wasn't that much smaller, he was still smaller. That reach and constant jab of Lewis is enough to give any fighter fits. That said, I think that would be a very boring fight. Two guys looking to stay out of harm's way for the most part and jab at each other doesn't sound very appealing. The interesting part is that during Ali's era, he never fought any skilled fighters that were taller than him and could control him with their jab. Would beating Lewis require tactics we've never seen Ali use?

KOF: Me & you are cool but I think you've got it twisted:

I wont nickel and dime the top 10 since Im so out of the boxing loop its not even funny.

I will say this.

Lennox Lewis being above Holyfield/Tyson/Frazier is ludicrous and bordering on the insane. Lewis is the weakest Heavyweight I can recall and you can pretty much pinpoint him as the downturn and fall of the heavyweight division.

He is the fall of the heavyweight division. That's a bit harsh but whatever.

He could barely squeak it out against an severely slowing Holyfield with 2 tries , he took 8 rounds to finish a shell of Mike Tyson. You think he stands a chance against ANY of the big guys in there prime ?
Tyson would swallow him up within 3 rounds Holyfield easily out points him if they met even 2 years prior. Lew's' pension for stalling and avoiding fights and delaying matchups coupled with his glass chin efforts give him an impressive record but an absolute absence of greatness.

Lewis dominated Holyfield in both fights, just didn't knock him out. Anyone who saw those fights will tell you Holyfield got an absolute gift in the form of a draw in the first fight. I don't think Holyfield ever outpoints Lewis. He could KO him if he managed to goad him into street brawls the way he did Bowe, but like those matchups I'd say Evander loses 2 out of 3 even at his absolute best. And I don't see the shame in dominating a guy for 7 rounds & knocking him out in the 8th.

As for Tyson. I can see how his post Cus career looks bad and his ranking should be worth dropping becuase of it. But he clearly is a guy who was 2 completely different fighters in his career.
The ridiculous notion of him being bullied , not being able to stand up to guys , or would quit easily is 100% King era. Tysons early career was spent against "bullies" and guys who thought theyd simply outpoint , use reach , or intimidate Tyson. Tyson mopped the floor with all of them and destroyed every boxer in his path ...old , young , champ , has been didnt matter he wrecked all of them usually in under 2 minutes. People are too quick to forget just what a unique and rare talent he was and just how well trained he was.

Agreed, he was 2 different fighters. However, his early career was hardly filled with bullies. At best, he fought a couple of decent fighters on his way to the title. Jesse Ferguson was probably the best of these. Jesse who? Exactly. Even then after the first 10 or so fights his rep preceeded him and these guys were mostly scared stiff before the fight started.

As far as his not being able to stand up to guys, Kevin Rooney often mentioned this as a problem Tyson had coming up. Rooney, of course, was Mike's trainer before King got hold of him. And yes, he was extremely well trained, while he was with Rooney. Once King, and Mike and whoever else forced Rooney out, shit went down the drain quick. Tyson stopped doing all the little things that made him great & just started trying to walk through guys' punches to land that one big blow.

Noone on that top 10 list had his combination of speed/power and unlike Frazier he knew how to dodge , move and setup the shots he wanted. Yes as a career barely top 10. But you put all these guys in there prime Ali/Foreman would be the only guys IMO that would give him a run for his money.

Again, while under Cus D' Amato & Kevin Rooney's tutelege he knew how to dodge, setup, etc. Even then, he didn't fight anyone who was as skilled as the champs mentioned in this thread who could either move, or keep him on the end of their jab. I'd say Mike definitely has a chance against any of them but they have a shot against him as well. FWIW, Tyson vs. Frazier or Marciano would likely be the most exciting matchups, but they'd be short one way or the other.

Bottom line in no planet or reality or scenario does Lewis deserve to be over Tyson/Frazier/Holyfield

Again, I think Lewis could beat Tyson at any point during his career. But a young Mike wouldn't be so easy to hit and would work hard to get inside that jab. It would definitely be interesting. As far as ranking them on a list of all-time greats I haven't decided where I'd put either, yet (maybe later today) but Lennox had a good run as the champ, avenged his losses with vicious beatdowns and beat the best fighters that were out there except for the one who ducked him (Riddick Bowe). That alone means a sane person can certainly rank him over a guy who had a meteoric rise to the top & flamed out fairly quickly.

Lewis didnt go out there looking for 1 punch KO's, he just boxed you up and got the win, his only 2 losses he avenged in brutal fashion

Lewis is very underrated in the all time ranks, with his size and boxing skills, I would match him up against anyone and like his chances

Ditto...see above.

Neither did Lennox Lewis or RoyJones Jr. RJJ and Tyson both absolutely wrecked and humiliated guys. Tyson unified the title and made sure ranked and up and comers were nobodies. Once again when you are THAT good and THAT dominant whos going to pose a challenge ? People want to dismiss everyone after a fight but many of these guys were considered legit and pretty damn good fighters before stepping in the ring with Tyson. Your assertion that he could be bullied etc is just really off the mark. The only people that say that are holding on to Old Tyson. Thats like me judging Foreman only on his post Grill making days.

Much like Lewis, RJJ was content to go 12 rounds and outpoint guys, no matter how boring it was. It occasionally looked better because of his speed and flair. In the annals of boxing history none of the guys Tyson beat would even make a top 100 heavyweights of all time with the exception of Holmes, who was washed up and possibly Spinks who was a blown up light heavyweight - and really really scared of him. Even the guys he beat for belts were suspect - Trevor Berbick, Bonecrusher Smith, Pinklon Thomas, Frank Bruno, Tony "TNT" Tucker, Tyrell Biggs. Really? Lewis is lacking in this area as well but let's not act like any of these guys were that good.

If your best argument was one guy who wasnt scared went the distance its not doing much. Lennox had everyone go the distance on him. He couldnt take care of guys that had no business in the ring with him let alone the sport of boxing. Aging vets, flash KOs by nobodies and losing to a guy whos career highlight was crying in the ring is hardly a resume that can compete.

We've already established Lennox was more than content to go 12 rounds & walk away with a boring decision so he didn't put himself out there going for KOs. He didn't have to & he still had a good number of them. True, he doesn't have the greatest resume in the world but neither does Tyson.

Lastly Blood Green and Tyson were both less that 20 fights into there careers. Green did nothing much outside of Hug Tyson for 10 rounds despite 8 inches of height advantage and a bunch of Gold gloves to his name. Hardly in argument over "not being scared".

I'll agree with that.

[dell71]

I would agree, and it's part of the reason that I don't think Manilla Ali loses to Lewis. Lewis was too prone to having let down fights against inferior guys and losing. Even when Ali was past his prime during the Manilla and later years Ali never had those let down fights. He'd wipe the floor with marginal guys then have wars with the greats. Lewis always seemed to lack to constant focus to be an all-time great.

I tend to agree with this. One thing though, if Lewis is fighting any of the other guys we're talking about there is no "letdown" as he'll know he's not in against an inferior fighter. Those losses definitely work against Lennox.

[FirstTimer]

I tend to agree with this. One thing though, if Lewis is fighting any of the other guys we're talking about there is no "letdown" as he'll know he's not in against an inferior fighter. Those losses definitely work against Lennox.

I see your point too. Lewis would obviously know he was going into a war and I wasn't so much talking about Lewis vs Ali I was just kinda of pointing out why I have a tough time ranking Lewis among the All Time Great Heavyweights.

I think Prime Ali works over Lewis, and I think Manilla/Post Manilla Ali vs Lewis are some pretty good fights but in the end I lean towards Ali because I just think Ali was mentally a much much tougher fighter.

[dell71]

I see your point too. Lewis would obviously know he was going into a war and I wasn't so much talking about Lewis vs Ali I was just kinda of pointing out why I have a tough time ranking Lewis among the All Time Great Heavyweights.

I think Prime Ali works over Lewis, and I think Manilla/Post Manilla Ali vs Lewis are some pretty good fights but in the end I lean towards Ali because I just think Ali was mentally a much much tougher fighter.

I agree Ali would win, just saying that at any point in Ali's career Lewis would still be a massive fighter looking to stay away from him through the consistent use of the jab. As far as jabs go, his was a very good but not great one (he sometimes liked to paw with it, instead of snapping it) but nevertheless it was a long jab. Long jabs can be the great equalizer in boxing.

[Liquidrob]

I agree Ali would win, just saying that at any point in Ali's career Lewis would still be a massive fighter looking to stay away from him through the consistent use of the jab. As far as jabs go, his was a very good but not great one (he sometimes liked to paw with it, instead of snapping it) but nevertheless it was a long jab. Long jabs can be the great equalizer in boxing.

Dell, it was a great jab, even when Lewis was pawing, it is just another form of a jab, more of a feeler jab.

It has many benefits to throw out your jab like that, he basically is 'putting it on you', once you’re at the end of it and can touch you he knows you are in range for the right hand.

It also serves as a form of broken rhythm; if you keep snapping jabs out there your opponent can time it better and parry when the right is coming, when he is pawing it, putting it in your face it is disrupting timing and gauging distance for him at the same time, you throw a couple feeler jabs, than some snap jabs, couple more feeler jabs and than the right comes, etc…also he can converse some energy and just throw it out there

Lewis was a tactician, a pugilist specialist

Here is the Tyson KO, basically the jab was just to gauge the distance and the right hand was the real punch, I dont feel like searching for more of a 2 or 3 pawing jabs than the right, but basically like this

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/uqaM9SVE2ws&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/uqaM9SVE2ws&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

[Liquidrob]

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/CW0TwWASHlI&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/CW0TwWASHlI&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

[dell71]

Dell, it was a great jab, even when Lewis was pawing, it is just another form of a jab, more of a feeler jab.

It has many benefits to throw out your jab like that, he basically is 'putting it on you', once you’re at the end of it and can touch you he knows you are in range for the right hand.

It also serves as a form of broken rhythm; if you keep snapping jabs out there your opponent can time it better and parry when the right is coming, when he is pawing it, putting it in your face it is disrupting timing and gauging distance for him at the same time, you throw a couple feeler jabs, than some snap jabs, couple more feeler jabs and than the right comes, etc…also he can converse some energy and just throw it out there

Lewis was a tactician, a pugilist specialist

Here is the Tyson KO, basically the jab was just to gauge the distance and the right hand was the real punch, I dont feel like searching for more of a 2 or 3 pawing jabs than the right, but basically like this

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/uqaM9SVE2ws&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/uqaM9SVE2ws&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

Great points. I'll happily change my opinion on this, it was a great jab though technically that left before the right on the Tyson vid wasn't really a jab. But it did gauge the distance effectively. I still think that Holmes had the best one in the history of the division, though.

[KINGOFOOTBALL]

Sorry but Lewis' power was non existent. Damage he delivered 9/10 times was from guys getting desperate to get inside and taking punch after punch after punch. He had zero speed on top of that.
Holyfield/Tyson were far quicker. Tyson again his speed/power combo is the best ever. You think a slow jab that took 8 rounds to finally do damage against an immobile Tyson is going to stop a peak Tyson ??
Holyfield as well had lost too much of his handspeed when he finally got to Lewis. Holyfield gets the better of that as well.

LR I do find it funny you praise Lewis as a boxing god yet absolutely trash "And1" for virtually the same tactics and mentality=-).

Trying to point yourself to victory and putting on some epicly boring fights does hurt your career. Whats unique about Lewis ? Speed/Power dont compare favorably to any of the greats. His skill set is overrated he got KOD by 2 ham and eggers and his only big name fights were against washed up fighters. Holyfield at least in a loss gave us one of the best rivalries and series of fights HW boxing had in ages and probably since. Tysons early career was nothing but highlight reels.

Theres nothing special about Lewis. A tall one dimensional guy beating up on old boxers. Definition of ho hum career. Sounds alot like Klitshko to me.

[nflman2033]

Whoa, you have Frazier above Foreman? For shame! Also, nice job having 11 boxers comprise your "top 10".

Epic Fail. j/k

lol, nice catch, the mess up came because i started the list and then my 1 month old daughter started crying and I had to hold her for the rest :D

as far as Frazier over Foreman because its not a direct comparison in terms of who beat who, but more of a body of work Foreman was only a two time champion and both reigns were really short the only time he was considered the best HW in the world was the short time between Frazier and Ali, both of them in my opinion are too close to call, probably could put them right next to each other on my list, honestly after my top 3 the next 10 guys are all interchangeable

[dell71]

Sorry but Lewis' power was non existent.

You don't get that many KOs with "non-existent" power, especially as a heavyweight.

Damage he delivered 9/10 times was from guys getting desperate to get inside and taking punch after punch after punch. He had zero speed on top of that.

Believe it or not, that's a skill.

Holyfield/Tyson were far quicker. Tyson again his speed/power combo is the best ever. You think a slow jab that took 8 rounds to finally do damage against an immobile Tyson is going to stop a peak Tyson ??
Holyfield as well had lost too much of his handspeed when he finally got to Lewis. Holyfield gets the better of that as well.

I agree that Tyson in his prime probably beats Lewis but the fact remains, no matter when they fought Lennox would still be much much bigger. A consistent jab from a skilled 6'5'' fighter is a huge obstacle.

Like I said before, I just don't see Holyfield getting it done. It doesn't seem any different than the Riddick Bowe fights.

While we're on the subject of Bowe, he so so disappointed. A greatly skilled big man who went looney. And absolutely ducked Lewis. I never understood that.

LR I do find it funny you praise Lewis as a boxing god yet absolutely trash "And1" for virtually the same tactics and mentality=-).

Trying to point yourself to victory and putting on some epicly boring fights does hurt your career. Whats unique about Lewis ? Speed/Power dont compare favorably to any of the greats. His skill set is overrated he got KOD by 2 ham and eggers and his only big name fights were against washed up fighters. Holyfield at least in a loss gave us one of the best rivalries and series of fights HW boxing had in ages and probably since. Tysons early career was nothing but highlight reels.

I don't see how winning hurts your career. So, it wasn't always exciting. The 2 losses to those "ham and eggers" does hurt, however. If Lewis' only big name wins were against washed up fighters, the same could be said of Tyson. Having a better highlight reel is NOT a deciding factor.

Theres nothing special about Lewis. A tall one dimensional guy beating up on old boxers. Definition of ho hum career. Sounds alot like Klitshko to me.

True, its just nature but his size and reach made him special. Please don't bring up Klitshko.

[Shayn•Da•Pain]

Sorry but Lewis' power was non existent. Damage he delivered 9/10 times was from guys getting desperate to get inside and taking punch after punch after punch. He had zero speed on top of that.
Holyfield/Tyson were far quicker. Tyson again his speed/power combo is the best ever. You think a slow jab that took 8 rounds to finally do damage against an immobile Tyson is going to stop a peak Tyson ??
Holyfield as well had lost too much of his handspeed when he finally got to Lewis. Holyfield gets the better of that as well.

LR I do find it funny you praise Lewis as a boxing god yet absolutely trash "And1" for virtually the same tactics and mentality=-).

Trying to point yourself to victory and putting on some epicly boring fights does hurt your career. Whats unique about Lewis ? Speed/Power dont compare favorably to any of the greats. His skill set is overrated he got KOD by 2 ham and eggers and his only big name fights were against washed up fighters. Holyfield at least in a loss gave us one of the best rivalries and series of fights HW boxing had in ages and probably since. Tysons early career was nothing but highlight reels.

Theres nothing special about Lewis. A tall one dimensional guy beating up on old boxers. Definition of ho hum career. Sounds alot like Klitshko to me.

Tyson had troule with tall guys as I remember. Except Holyfield, almost all of the guys who went the distance against Tyson were 6'3" or better. Lennox at 6'5" would be very hard to hit with a knockout blow. Lennox was one of the best at keeping distance.
He had had some good power, I won't lie and say he was one of the best power hitters but he had good power. He was a damn good fighter, picked his punches very well and hit with good accuracy with come of the best jabs I've ever seen.

I just don't want anybody to discount his power because of his style. Watch his bouts against Ruddock, Briggs, Golota, Grant, Botha, and his rematch against Rahman. You'll see his power. He had more fights when he displayed his punching power but most of his fights weren't about that. He just loved the technical aspects of boxing above brutallity.

"It's not rage that drives me, but competition." - Lennox Lewis

[Liquidrob]

Sorry but Lewis' power was non existent. Damage he delivered 9/10 times was from guys getting desperate to get inside and taking punch after punch after punch. He had zero speed on top of that.
Holyfield/Tyson were far quicker. Tyson again his speed/power combo is the best ever. You think a slow jab that took 8 rounds to finally do damage against an immobile Tyson is going to stop a peak Tyson ??
Holyfield as well had lost too much of his handspeed when he finally got to Lewis. Holyfield gets the better of that as well.

LR I do find it funny you praise Lewis as a boxing god yet absolutely trash "And1" for virtually the same tactics and mentality=-).

Trying to point yourself to victory and putting on some epicly boring fights does hurt your career. Whats unique about Lewis ? Speed/Power dont compare favorably to any of the greats. His skill set is overrated he got KOD by 2 ham and eggers and his only big name fights were against washed up fighters. Holyfield at least in a loss gave us one of the best rivalries and series of fights HW boxing had in ages and probably since. Tysons early career was nothing but highlight reels.

Theres nothing special about Lewis. A tall one dimensional guy beating up on old boxers. Definition of ho hum career. Sounds alot like Klitshko to me.

Boxing is different than MMA, in boxing it is more acceptable to 'just win' and move on, NHB/MMA was built on finishes and IMO should still be about that, boxing has years from being about finishes

With guys like Silva, Machida and the lay and pray wrestlers MMA is losing its 'rawness' that it was built on

Anyway, like I said earlier, i'm not a huge fan of watching Lewis fight, he can be boring and I would rather watch a lot of other fighters, but he did have some great KO's and put on clinics

Anyway, you say what was great or special about lewis, it was his skill level and his size, he is technically superior to almost everyone he fought, not a bad area to be great in

[Shayn•Da•Pain]

Boxing is different than MMA, in boxing it is more acceptable to 'just win' and move on, NHB/MMA was built on finishes and IMO should still be about that, boxing has years from being about finishes

With guys like Silva, Machida and the lay and pray wrestlers MMA is losing its 'rawness' that it was built on

Anyway, like I said earlier, i'm not a huge fan of watching Lewis fight, he can be boring and I would rather watch a lot of other fighters, but he did have some great KO's and put on clinics

Anyway, you say what was great or special about lewis, it was his skill level and his size, he is technically superior to almost everyone he fought, not a bad area to be great in

It would have been amazing to see an Ali/Frazier type matchup with Lewis. Holyfield/Lewis was pretty good, but Evander was pretty run down when they met. Tyson was obviously out of gas too. Lewis will always be underrated because of the level of fighters he faced. I think he would have done well in ANY other era though. It's a shame he really didn't have anybody to lift up his legend like Ali had. Not that I think he was Ali good...but he was very very good nonetheless.