AI in contract talks with Grizz

[The Messenger]

IMO because you are a Grizzlies fan you are overrating both Young and Carrol. Young is not the type of perimeter defender who has the footspeed to keep up with the leagues perimeter players. Defensively, Carrol isn't anything special on the perimeter. I'm not saying either are bad defenders, but neither are going to bring any real perimeter defensive presence either. At best the both of them will be journeymen types who simply take up a roster spot.

I see what you mean, but I'm not expecting them to go out there and shut people down. I mostly see them as guys who are going to go out there and hustle and not give up on plays, and they will put up their best defensive effort on every play, and I'm judging that on the type of players they were in college. That's mainly what Carroll and Young were known for.

I don't think they are going to be great players, but I like the way the Grizz went about the draft. We needed hustle, defense, and rebounding and that's how the Grizz drafted. They should get good minutes, and when they are out there they will be putting out more of an effort than Marko Jaric, Greg Buckner, and Darius Miles, and most likely they won't be as stupid on offense as Quinton Ross (who's retardation on offense nullifies anything he does on defense). That's what I'm looking forward to with Young and Carroll.

 

[dave]

The bottom line is this - Iverson would at least make the Grizzlies interesting.

Without him, they are what they are - a bottom feeder that will be lucky to win 20 games.

With him, they're a bottom feeder that puts 1,000 more asses in the seats every night and wins 22 games.

 

[The Messenger]

saying he needs to be a featured guy to get maximum effort/impact on both ends of the court and saying i want him to be ahead of o.j. mayo in the offensive pecking order on my team are two completely different statements. so no, that's not what i'm saying i "want"

He's the first option on offense a lot of nights (second on others), he's the Grizzlies leading scorer. If by featured guy you don't mean the featured guy, then tell me what you mean by featured guy and quit pulling words out of your ass.

i never said there was a massive fall-off in all of his stats, and i'm not saying that he regressed simply because his assists went down 0.3 per game - clearly you don't get that - i'm saying that he'd be the first case in history where a player improved while also getting worse in nearly every measurable statistic, no matter how large or small the increments. ok, so he's not forcing his shots any more. interestingly enough *stat alert* every measure of his offensive efficiency declined (but you already knew that) - so that can only mean he took better shots and missed more of them. that's a regression, especially since your argument is that his shot selection improved, but i look forward to you explaining it as otherwise. what you need to realize is that 82-game aggregate stats can be very telling, and they can also contradict recollections from watching some live action over the course of the season

That's nice, but you forget Rudy Gay took 145 less threes last year than he did the year before. He also shot 28 more free throws this year. ie not forcing shots and working in the offensive flow as opposed to what he was doing last year.

here's a quote from the link i posted that you obviously didn't read while you were busy insulting me

egads! this writer that covers the grizz not only asserts that gay regressed (he added there was a lack of "natural improvement" from his second to third season), but used stats to back up the claim! does that mean, in your estimation, that he doesn't understand how the game of basketball works either?

Oh shit, a sports writer that doesn't understand the game of basketball? BLASPHEMY! Do you even know who this guy writes for? The Memphis fucking Flyer. That's like taking an article from the back page of The Penny Saver and standing behind it.

What you get in that article is a guy who takes a 4 game slump and relates it to the season (which isn't over btw) and he tries to make it seem as if the whole season is going that way. He takes 4 games where Rudy Gay has zero free throw attempts, well obviously we already covered that he shot more free throws last season than he did the year before. Rudy also shot 1-9 from the three point arc, we also already covered that Rudy shot better last season from three than he did the year before.

Then the guy goes on to talk about how the Grizzlies pace and more focused emphasis on defense is hurting Rudy Gay's development. Do you exactly know what happens to teams who run the court at breakneck speeds and play zero defense? If they are lucky and have all the talent in the world, they make the playoffs and usually lose in the 1st or 2nd rounds (see Golden State and Phoenix).

So your point is that Rudy Gay regressed on both sides of the ball because the Grizzlies slowed things down by actually playing defense and running an offensive set or two? If that's true that he regressed (which I don't believe he did) that speaks volumes about the type of player Rudy Gay is if his game takes a step backwords when he's asked to play defense and play within an actual offense. Featured player? More like a Shawn Marion type at best.

and just to clarify: you stand behind your claim that gay improved last season as a player while describing him someone that is "scared to take over ball games, who doesn't command the ball, and plays average defense"? how did you describe him before the alleged improvement?

How do I describe him before the alleged improvement? I'm talking about the type of player Rudy Gay is and has always been. He's never been the guy to take over ball games (I'm not talking 40 points one night like Jamal Crawford, I'm talking taking over like a star player should). He's never commanded the ball on offense. That article you posted even mentions how Rudy Gay was sitting in the corner not really in the game, just spotted up for a 3. When a point desperately needs to be scored, guys who are franchise guys like Kobe, Danny Granger, Kevin Durant, etc command the ball when their team desperately needs a score. Rudy Gay isn't that guy, he never has been, O.J. Mayo is the guy who wants that shot and he's going to tell his team he's taking it. As far as the average defense thing goes, if you think he plays anything but average defense, then this argument should have been over before it began and you should have had your head buried in game tapes.

 

[Awesometrax]

Randolph and AI, well of course they don't, but I can't see AI starting. He'd be the 6th man off the bench who is gonna run the second unit. And if he does start, it's just going to be for show. He'll play 3-5 minutes, then get out until Rudy and Mayo need a break.

Sorry but that ain't gonna happen if Iverson's there, it's been shown time and time again that he simply refuses to come off the bench. So either he's gonna play 30+ minutes and take 20+ shots night in and night out, or he'll refuse to play altogether.

 

[Archer]

Sorry but that ain't gonna happen if Iverson's there, it's been shown time and time again that he simply refuses to come off the bench. So either he's gonna play 30+ minutes and take 20+ shots night in and night out, or he'll refuse to play altogether.

He said he couldnt see AI starting not that he wont

All in all though , AI should realise that its the bench or nothing at all at this point in his career

Just retire if you hate it so much

 

[Awesometrax]

He said he couldnt see AI starting not that he wont

All in all though , AI should realise that its the bench or nothing at all at this point in his career

Just retire if you hate it so much

But it's obvious that he doesn't realize that. So therefore, he should just retire.

 

[The Messenger]

Sorry but that ain't gonna happen if Iverson's there, it's been shown time and time again that he simply refuses to come off the bench. So either he's gonna play 30+ minutes and take 20+ shots night in and night out, or he'll refuse to play altogether.

When's the last time AI took 20+ shots a night?

 

[The Messenger]

i think it's our fundamental beliefs of the game are really holding us back from getting anywhere. you say his taking fewer shots is what proves he improved as a player, despite the fact that he also made a lower percentage of them. by the way, gay attempted more two-pointers in 08-09 (1020) than 07-08 (967) and, of course, made less of them (from .508 to .478). sure, he did get to the line more, but he also made a lower percentage of them. and while he wasn't forcing shots and was working in the offensive flow, his assist-to-turnover ratio declined from 0.83:1 to 0.67:1. that's going from pretty poor to absolutely terrible. i've never said he was a great distributor - what i said was that was a significant decline in an already poor area no matter how you look at it. ie, a regression. ie, he was better at what he did in 07-08 than he was at what he did last year, even if the team personnel/pace/coaching/whatever dictated the change in what he was doing


NOW we're getting somewhere. the fact that he did regress does say a lot about his game - interestingly enough, i never tried to say anything different. if you look, i've never had a problem with any way you've described him other than that he improved as a player last season. i agree that rudy has yet to be a real game-changer (perhaps never will), and i firmly believe that his deference/passivity on offense will only increase with z-bo aboard and will reach yet another level if AI is also brought in. in other words, the regression will continue. if at least some of the reasoning is because of continued changes in team personnel/pace/coaching/whatever, then so be it - to borrow the verbage that the dumbass that spews ignorance for the flyer used, i'm not expecting a natural progression of skills this coming season, just like we didn't see last season

let me see if you agree with this, and perhaps we should just leave it at that: gay is the type of player that needs a wide-open system to thrive, something the grizz have moved away from and continue to distance themselves from; on offense he's much better on the fast break - and thus more, dare i say, featured - than in the half court set, and on defense he's much better as a help/weak-side defender than in straight man defense. sound about right?

Sounds to me like we're closer to agreeing with each other than actually disagreeing, we just don't understand each others arguments fully. I can see some of the stuff you said that I thought you were referring to other things, but you weren't. That's my fault.

Either way, I still don't see Rudy as regressing, but more like he's beginning to play within a system that requires him to use his offensive skills within that system rather than running the court trying to get fastbreak dunks and transition threes. You could look at his involvement in the offense now and say he's regressing, or you can look at it and say he's improving as a player because he's learning to be more than a one trick pony. Anyways, it's been a good argument. I know I threw in the occasional diss, which probably wasn't called for, but you know a lot more about basketball than the average person and you can hold your own in a debate.

 

[The Messenger]

IMO because you are a Grizzlies fan you are overrating both Young and Carrol. Young is not the type of perimeter defender who has the footspeed to keep up with the leagues perimeter players. Defensively, Carrol isn't anything special on the perimeter. I'm not saying either are bad defenders, but neither are going to bring any real perimeter defensive presence either. At best the both of them will be journeymen types who simply take up a roster spot.

Just wondering if you've been watching the Summer League games? Carroll has shown that he can keep up with the faster guys in the NBA (guarded Russell Westbrook numerous times last night). I love the kid's hustle too. I may need to get a DaMarre Carroll jersey.