Donovan McNabb to retire as an Eagle. HOF worthy?

[Senser81]

No, but he's close.

He's the threshold at QB, IMO. Above Ken Anderson.

Interesting comparison. Anderson was underrated throughout his career, McNabb was overrated. Anderson was criticized for being a "product of the system"; McNabb truly was a product of the system. I would say that Anderson was better than McNabb, but thats just my opinion.

 

[Hasselbeck]

He'll come up short and just at the foot of Canton's door.

Kind of like his passes.

 

[young2rice]

I don't think he gets in. He is missing that one important thing that vaults him as a yes but at the moment I feel like he was a great QB for the Eagles but not Canton bound.

 

[dave]

However, we don't induct players on what they could have been. While his playoff record is good, it's hard to overlook going 1-4 in NFC championship games when he was favored in all but 1 of them.

Do you pin all four losses on McNabb alone?
I understand why many don't believe he doesn't belong in the HOF ... but Jim Kelly lost four Super Bowls and no one says he's at fault for all those losses.

If it's possible, can a player be both overrated and underrated?

I know, it sounds stupid ... but I think McNabb is one of those players.

Remember the year he got injured and Garcia took over? Headline after he got injured for the season LET US PRAY.
Is that a headline an average or above-average QB gets on page 1 of a major city newspaper?

I remember when that happened, Reid changed the O playbook and ran the ball way more ... Garcia played great ... and I was thinking to myself "He should have run this offence with McNabb."

I absolutely buy why McNabb is borderline HOF, but I also believe people don't give him the credit he deserves.

 

[LiquidLarry2GhostWF]

Interesting comparison. Anderson was underrated throughout his career, McNabb was overrated. Anderson was criticized for being a "product of the system"; McNabb truly was a product of the system. I would say that Anderson was better than McNabb, but thats just my opinion.

I feel history has since overrated Anderson. I don't hate'em or anything and he's certainly not a bum, I just feel history has labeled him as the best QB not in the Hall and I disagree. Even if he is...I'd take McNabb over him. I think history is rating McNabb properly...not overrating, IMO.

Maybe its because I always preferred Boomer or Anderson...I dunno.

With that said, I think McNabb finished his career in the Boomer category...appropriate.

 

[LiquidLarry2GhostWF]

McNabb will absolutely not get into the Hall of Fame.

As time progresses, more and more of his contemporaries are going to be going to the Hall of Fame.

Peyton Manning
Tom Brady
Drew Brees
Aaron Rodgers
Brett Favre
Ben Roethlisberger
Eli Manning
Kurt Warner

And when it comes down to it, he's just not nearly as good as those guys and doesn't come close to having the resume.

 

[shag773]

Interesting comparison. Anderson was underrated throughout his career, McNabb was overrated. Anderson was criticized for being a "product of the system"; McNabb truly was a product of the system. I would say that Anderson was better than McNabb, but thats just my opinion.

McNabb was not a product of a system. It's a common misconception from people who look at what he did in Washington and Minnesota, and point at those two seasons as proof that he couldn't play outside of Reid's offense. He wasn't close to the same player physically as he was in the prime of his career.

I saw every down he played from 99-09. Both McNabb and Jim Johnson (Def Coordinator) covered up a lot of weaknesses on offense in both personnel and scheme. I don't think it's a coincidence Reid's never won a playoff game without either of those guys on the sideline or on the field. I'm not saying McNabb would of been a sure fire HOF somewhere else, but I will say that McNabb was at least just as important to 'the system" as "the system" was to McNabb's career.

 

[shag773]

Do you pin all four losses on McNabb alone?
I understand why many don't believe he doesn't belong in the HOF ... but Jim Kelly lost four Super Bowls and no one says he's at fault for all those losses.

If it's possible, can a player be both overrated and underrated?

I know, it sounds stupid ... but I think McNabb is one of those players.

Remember the year he got injured and Garcia took over? Headline after he got injured for the season LET US PRAY.
Is that a headline an average or above-average QB gets on page 1 of a major city newspaper?

I remember when that happened, Reid changed the O playbook and ran the ball way more ... Garcia played great ... and I was thinking to myself "He should have run this offence with McNabb."

I absolutely buy why McNabb is borderline HOF, but I also believe people don't give him the credit he deserves.

1. No, I think Reid had a lot more to do with those NFC champ losses than McNabb. But Qb's get too much credit when the win and too much blame when they lose. It may not be fair to pin those losses on him, but unfortunately that's just what happens to NFL QBs.

2. I don't think he's overrated or underrated. He's about where he should be. I think if he would of stayed healthy he might of put up HOF type numbers, but durability is and should be taken into consideration when judging a HOF resume. He couldn't stay on the field the second half of his career, and physically broke down his last 2 years in the league.

3. I agree that if Reid ran the same offense with McNabb that he did with Garcia the year they went on that playoff run, the team would of had more success in McNabb's last years in Philly and possibly prolonged his career. But unless they won a SB during that time, which IMO they didn't have the talent to do, it would not of made a difference with his HOF credentials.

 

[Senser81]

McNabb was not a product of a system. It's a common misconception from people who look at what he did in Washington and Minnesota, and point at those two seasons as proof that he couldn't play outside of Reid's offense. He wasn't close to the same player physically as he was in the prime of his career.

McNabb looking terrible outside the Eagles organization is just part of it. One, he wasn't accurate. Two, people think McNabb was a one-man offense, but he usually played on a contending team. Three, whenever he was hurt, guys like Garcia, Detmer, Feeley would step in and play well (or in Garcia's case, play much better). I honestly think that if Jeff Garcia was on those Andy Reid Eagle teams, he'd have been more successful than McNabb. Garcia was a hard-luck QB who had some great seasons with the cap-hell Niners. He was 36 when he led the Eagles to the 2006 NFC East title...McNabb was out of football at 36. McNabb was a very good player, but its not like he was irreplaceable.

 

[Senser81]

I don't think it's a coincidence Reid's never won a playoff game without either of those guys on the sideline or on the field.

Garcia won the 2006 season playoff against NYG.

 

[Pitty]

He'll be the HoF equivalent of an Affirmative Action hire, guaranteed.

 

[Saluki]

He won't and shouldn't be in, he's one of those players that ppl will remember and was good for a number of years but ultimately in that post eagles stretch he would have need to put up good to great numbers to make the hall and he played like shit.

Sent from my SGH-T999 using Tapatalk 2

 

[ralaw]

He'll be the HoF equivalent of an Affirmative Action hire, guaranteed.

"The HOF is very desirous that a black quarterback do well."

 

[shag773]

McNabb looking terrible outside the Eagles organization is just part of it. One, he wasn't accurate. Two, people think McNabb was a one-man offense, but he usually played on a contending team. Three, whenever he was hurt, guys like Garcia, Detmer, Feeley would step in and play well (or in Garcia's case, play much better). I honestly think that if Jeff Garcia was on those Andy Reid Eagle teams, he'd have been more successful than McNabb. Garcia was a hard-luck QB who had some great seasons with the cap-hell Niners. He was 36 when he led the Eagles to the 2006 NFC East title...McNabb was out of football at 36. McNabb was a very good player, but its not like he was irreplaceable.

McNabb truly was a product of the system

he wasn't accurate

He was the product of a system that had an inaccurate QB throw the ball 60% of the time. Ok. I guess guys like Charles Johnson, Torrance Small, Chad Lewis, Todd Pinkston, Duce Staley, James Thrash, Correll Buckhalter, and Freddie Mitchell carried that offense to a 46-18 record, 4 playoff appearances and 3 NFC Championship games from 2000-2003.

Jeff Garcia played great. But Reid also had a more balanced offense with Garcia at QB. But I agree, Jeff Garcia was a much better 36 year old QB than McNabb.

Garcia won the 2006 season playoff against NYG.

Both McNabb and Jim Johnson (Def Coordinator) covered up a lot of weaknesses on offense in both personnel and scheme. I don't think it's a coincidence Reid's never won a playoff game without either of those guys on the sideline or on the field.

If memory serves Jim Johnson coached the defense that game. But in the last 3 years without McNabb Reid has 0 playoff wins and 1 playoff appearance.

 

[dell71]

Just to expand on the assertion he had a "bad" offensive line since Dell also questioned it in the OP, you have to remember he was a mobile QB, especially early in his career. Steve Young took a ton of sacks in his career, and even had a higher career sack% (Young 7.4 with the Niners, 7.9 overall vs McNabb 7.1 ). Did Steve Young have a bad O-Line too?

Not quite what I was saying. I put it in the cons section as a knock on him, only mentioning that it can be debated how many sacks were his fault, how many his o-line as is the case with most QBs. I tend to put more on him because, like Young and most mobile QBs, they take more sacks because they hold on to the ball longer, trusting that they can make something happen.

McNabb will absolutely not get into the Hall of Fame.

As time progresses, more and more of his contemporaries are going to be going to the Hall of Fame.

Peyton Manning
Tom Brady
Drew Brees
Aaron Rodgers
Brett Favre
Ben Roethlisberger
Eli Manning
Kurt Warner

And when it comes down to it, he's just not nearly as good as those guys and doesn't come close to having the resume.

The interesting name on that list, in comparison to McNabb, is Eli. And this is coming from a NYG fan. Eli is even less accurate. In fact, his completion% is lower than McNabb's (58.6 to McNabb's 59.0), only one top 10 finish in the category and is 26th among active QBs. He also has whole seasons where he just throws pick after pick (twice led the league). Starting his career later than McNabb, so the rules during his career are even a little more passer friendly, his passer rating is about 3 points lower than McNabb (82.7 to McNabb's 85.6) and exactly average for his era with only one top 10 finish in the category.

A look at the lists pro-football-reference provides for each as "similar players," meaning players who had careers of similar quality and shape, is also intriguing.

For McNabb: Brunell, McNair, Bradshaw, Kelly, Aikman, Esiason, Staubach, Bledsoe, Stabler, Bob Griese.

For Eli: Garrard, Delhomme, Palmer, Roethlisberger, Pennington, Humphries, Romo, Aaron Brooks, Lamonica, Doug Williams.

Not to say this proves anything but I think we can all agree that we'd rather have the guys on McNabb's list.


Two things Eli has heavily in his favor are his health (hasn't missed a start yet) and, of course 2 SB wins. Not only does he have the 2 rings but in each game he has a HoF moment. Other than that he doesn't compare well with McNabb, or Ken Anderson, or even Phil Simms who has 2 SB rings for the same franchise (I know, he only played in one). So basically, we're saying Eli is HoF worthy on the basis of 2 games. And/or McNabb is more HoF worthy than we're giving him credit for. Or, Eli isn't the lock people assume he is and will fall into Jim Plunkett territory with 2 rings and no yellow jacket.

 

[shag773]

Not quite what I was saying. I put it in the cons section as a knock on him, only mentioning that it can be debated how many sacks were his fault, how many his o-line as is the case with most QBs. I tend to put more on him because, like Young and most mobile QBs, they take more sacks because they hold on to the ball longer, trusting that they can make something happen.

I said you questioned it because you said it was debatable. It doesn't matter though, I think we are on the same page on that debate.

The interesting name on that list, in comparison to McNabb, is Eli. And this is coming from a NYG fan. Eli is even less accurate. In fact, his completion% is lower than McNabb's (58.6 to McNabb's 59.0), only one top 10 finish in the category and is 26th among active QBs. He also has whole seasons where he just throws pick after pick (twice led the league). Starting his career later than McNabb, so the rules during his career are even a little more passer friendly, his passer rating is about 3 points lower than McNabb (82.7 to McNabb's 85.6) and exactly average for his era with only one top 10 finish in the category.

A look at the lists pro-football-reference provides for each as "similar players," meaning players who had careers of similar quality and shape, is also intriguing.

For McNabb: Brunell, McNair, Bradshaw, Kelly, Aikman, Esiason, Staubach, Bledsoe, Stabler, Bob Griese.

For Eli: Garrard, Delhomme, Palmer, Roethlisberger, Pennington, Humphries, Romo, Aaron Brooks, Lamonica, Doug Williams.

Not to say this proves anything but I think we can all agree that we'd rather have the guys on McNabb's list.


Two things Eli has heavily in his favor are his health (hasn't missed a start yet) and, of course 2 SB wins. Not only does he have the 2 rings but in each game he has a HoF moment. Other than that he doesn't compare well with McNabb, or Ken Anderson, or even Phil Simms who has 2 SB rings for the same franchise (I know, he only played in one). So basically, we're saying Eli is HoF worthy on the basis of 2 games. And/or McNabb is more HoF worthy than we're giving him credit for. Or, Eli isn't the lock people assume he is and will fall into Jim Plunkett territory with 2 rings and no yellow jacket.

For me Eli's HOF credentials stretch further than just 2 games. His numbers in the 11 playoff games he played are much better than his regular season numbers. And what really stands out to me is that most of his numbers were put up on the road. I understand that all those road playoff games is directly related to his inconsistency in the regular season. But impressive nonetheless.

 

[JBregz]

In a what if scenario? I'd say yes (ex. playing with a better team) but it is what it is, pretty close but I'd have to say no. But he should get his # retired in Phili and be in their ring of honours.

 

[dell71]

I said you questioned it because you said it was debatable. It doesn't matter though, I think we are on the same page on that debate.





For me Eli's HOF credentials stretch further than just 2 games. His numbers in the 11 playoff games he played are much better than his regular season numbers. And what really stands out to me is that most of his numbers were put up on the road. I understand that all those road playoff games is directly related to his inconsistency in the regular season. But impressive nonetheless.

My issue with this is that if all other things were equal, but the Giants had lost both SuperBowls, his road playoff accomplishments would be nice but not nearly enough to say he's HoF caliber. Even if they'd split, I'm not sure we'd be saying he should go in. With the 2 SB wins, his other playoff wins become icing on the cake. Without them, there's probably no cake.

 

[shag773]

My issue with this is that if all other things were equal, but the Giants had lost both SuperBowls, his road playoff accomplishments would be nice but not nearly enough to say he's HoF caliber. Even if they'd split, I'm not sure we'd be saying he should go in. With the 2 SB wins, his other playoff wins become icing on the cake. Without them, there's probably no cake.

I've always weighted a player's accomplishments in big games a little more favorably, especially QBs. Plus, I don't look at a career and go through what if scenario's. He won and heavily contributed to 2 amazing playoff runs and 2 SB wins, along with 2 SB MVPs. If he were to get hit by a bus tomorrow that would be his legacy and his ticket would be punched into the HOF.

McNabb had his opportunities to make his mark and failed. He had championship games as a home favorite and lost. In his lone SB loss, he threw 3 pics in a game they lost by 3.

 

[Aso]

I have a huge problem with Eli Manning being a HOF'er because he's not one of the best of all time. It's a disgrace but it will happen unfortunately.