E:60 tackles whether or not the UFC is a monopoly

[SHOGUN]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_AmZDsEqc4"]FEA_otl_mma_pay_dot_com_preview.mov - YouTube[/ame]

Can't wait for the full piece.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

It's going to be difficult to frame that argument, unless ESPN dug up some dirt on predatory business practices or Zuffa strong arming potential promotions out of business somehow.

 

[Liquidrob]

of course, they ran promotions out of nevada, greased the 'palms' of commisions, strong armed fighters, got wacky regulations passed in parts of canada where MMA can only be in an 'octogon' which they have trademark rights too and so on

Just how they got the UFC in the first place was shady

SHUT EM DOWN

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

The problem is that new promotions pop up all the time, and land national TV deals.

Pro Elite landed a national TV deal by the second show.

Bellator is entering their fourth network deal, and each has been better than the one before (well, FSN was a better spot than MTV2, but barely and it's definitely arguable, but they've gone from ESPN Deportes to Spike in less than five years).

M-1 was on Showtime.

Bodog, IFL, etc all came and went.

If you have the resources, you can be in the MMA business. Aside from SF, the rest of the groups Zuffa purchased had two options...fold, or sell. So they really haven't put anyone out of business by throwing gigantic money at them to go away.

I'm interested how deep ESPN really dug on this.

 

[LiquidLarry2GhostWF]

There is no story here because no, Zuffa is not a monopoly. They might be the biggest and most lucrative game in town, but there are other games available. Just because you are the biggest and most lucrative doesn't mean you are a monopoly.

 

[EmpireWF]

I refuse to consider the UFC a monopoly, especially when there have been or will be MMA companies on major American television (SF on CBS/Showtime before the purchase, Bellator on Spike).

Now fighter pay is an interesting issue I hope they spend time on.

There's no doubt the low totem pole fighters could be getting more.

The last PPV Ken Shamrock fought on was UFC 61. The lowest noted salaries were just $2k to show (I assume $2k to win).

At UFC 141, the lowest noted salaries were at $8k to show ($8k to win supposedly).

Between gates and PPV revenue, I'd think they can afford to spend more money on the preliminary guys.

Granted, they pay for accident insurance for all their fighters and that's huge.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

UFC pays there undercard geeks a lot more than boxing promoters. If you ask me, it's the main eventers that Zuffa screws over.

 

[EmpireWF]

Latest Observer includes this...

ESPN’s “Outside the Lines” will be doing a piece on 1/15 (Sunday) at 10 a.m. Eastern on ESPN 2 on the pay scale of UFC fighters. Reporter John Barr asked Lorenzo Fertitta if UFC pays fighters 50% of total revenues, similar to what athletes in the four major sports get, and not the 10% numerous sources told Outside the Lines that the athletes get.

“In that neighborhood, yeah, in that neighborhood.” The problem is, because of bonuses that we don’t know, when it comes to PPVs, it’s impossible to even make an estimate. But the estimates people make of 10% using base pay are ridiculous, because the headliners make so much more than base pay that it isn’t funny, and with very few exceptions, every fighter appearing on a PPV card gets bonused something, even if it’s $5,000. In addition, when it comes to a TV shoot, some of those shows are loss leaders. I don’t know what UFC’s deal with Showtime is, but Strikeforce was getting around $750,000 (more would be kicked in if someone like Fedor was involved, but on Fedor vs. Henderson, UFC lost significant money because of both men’s huge salaries), and the payroll was $566,000. Now there is also a gate, not yet released, but tickets weren’t moving much in Las Vegas. Not sure what the casino may have paid for the show, but the point is, this was not a $5.6 million show in revenue and the pay was a lot more than 10%. For the 12/30 show, if we go with the idea of 800,000 buys, then Zuffa took in about $18 million from its share of PPV and $3.1 million in gate, or in the range of $21 million. Of that, we know the undercard fighters took in $851,000, and we can very conservatively figure another $150,000 in undisclosed bonuses, so that’s $1 million. We also know from the lawsuit that with that level of a buy rate, that Overeem got about $2.27 million and let’s be conservative and say Lesnar got $2.5 million, so it’s $5.8 million out of $21 million, or 28%. That’s double the 15% that WWE pays talent, also way above the 10% that so many write and claim UFC pays by disingenuously acting as if the money in the original base purses is all that is paid. But it is likely far less than 50%. Ken Shamrock is also on the piece saying, “The UFC has gone out and strategically bought out every company, or they cut the knees our from underneath them when they tried to get started... There’s nothing wrong with that kind of business, but when you get in that kind of position, they don’t use that position to hold the fighters hostage.”

 

[clovett]

I'm strictly watching to see Ken Shamrock. That is all.

 

[BigBucs]

UFC pays there undercard geeks a lot more than boxing promoters. If you ask me, it's the main eventers that Zuffa screws over.

PPV undercards? Highly doubt that. 2k and 8k to win? How much to the loser assuming those figures to the winner is true. Fighters getting 2k+ for Friday Night Fights on ESPN.

 

[Epidemik]

The issue is a tad misleading.

Talking the strictness of labeling or proving something is a monopoly, the big problem with calling UFC a monopoly doesnt have much to do with smaller or other promotions getting national TV deals, it has to do with the relevant market. Boxing, is a relevant market when it comes to MMA. They compete in the same relevant market. To a hardcore fan, yes they are different, but they are substitutes for each other. When you compare Boxing numbers to MMA numbers, you are proving they are in the same relevant market because they are competing for the same dollars. They are comparable. You perhaps may even make the case for Professional Wrestling. With how much boxing (WWE, TNA?) is still making, you cant call UFC a monopoly on those grounds, so i doubt you will ever see anything real happen to them.

If you can prove that MMA is its own distinct stand alone market, then that's where you can begin making arguments.

Perhaps the point of bringing up monopoly talks it to pressure the UFC to pay better, or spread the revenue more generously.

 

[Epidemik]

If you are talking about strictly MMA (keeping MMA as its own distinct market),

say SF (before UFC bought them), Pro Elite, Bellator all have PPVS for $30.00 and UFC sells theirs for 65.00.

if the UFC were to raise its prices say 10%, from $65.00 to $71.50 and experiences very little to no drop in PPV numbers (of course assuming there is a fixed number of PPV buys a year) then you can begin to prove UFC has a monopoly as it proves there isnt much of a substitute for UFC. UFC has monopolistic control. Consumers have no were else to turn to.

however one could argue that there is a breaking point, at maybe $100 a PPV, it would curtail UFC PPV purchases, however it wouldnt necessarily drive that same consumer base to start buying SF, Pro Elite, Bellator PPVs. That is relevant as well.

This again is hard to prove technically because PPV buys aren't fixed they're variable due to who is actually fighting on the card, hype of the fight, etc. You'd have to use yearly instead of monthly numbers

 

[Liquidrob]

you guys are missing all the shady shit the UFC does to hold down the competetion, even when they bought the UFC is was not on the up and up, they screwed withe SEG when they owned the UFC and than went to buy it

the comission tie's, the rules they get passd about MMA only being in an octogons, strong arming fighters, Fing with promotions who try and run shows in Vegas, etc...

but oh well, what do the fans care, just bleed

 

[EmpireWF]

you guys are missing all the shady shit the UFC does to hold down the competetion

Come on. None of the small shows effected by all that crap is their competition.

 

[Liquidrob]

Come on. None of the small shows effected by all that crap is their competition.

They have held down almost every show that has tried to come up, I'm not talking about MMA night in the back of boss hogs BBQ shack

Just be like all the 'MMA' fans and keep your head in the sand

actually, just by getting that rule passed about MMA can only be in an 'octogon' it screws everyone in that province in canada

 

[Liquidrob]

whats funny is when MMA fans say 'if you have money you can get into MMA' parroting Dana White

Thats not an arguement and has nothing to do with it, if you have enough money you can start a pro football league, your boy McMahon did, what does having money and starting a MMA league have to do with the corrupt business practices of zuffa?

head in the sand

 

[EmpireWF]

They have held down almost every show that has tried to come up, I'm not talking about MMA night in the back of boss hogs BBQ shack

actually, just by getting that rule passed about MMA can only be in an 'octogon' it screws everyone in that province in canada

So the UFC is full of shrewd business guys and they use their power to get beneficial breaks?

Okay...

 

[Liquidrob]

lol @ empire and his 'it's just business' answers for everything zuffa related

 

[Liquidrob]

Some quotes from UFC fighters:

We're basically fighting for crumbs," said one current UFC fighter, a veteran of more than a dozen years in the sport who also asked that his name be withheld for fear of reprisals from UFC management.

"The top 5 percent [of fighters] are definitely making good money, but you've got to look at the guys at the bottom of the card," the fighter said. "They can't fight anywhere else. If they make $10,000 a fight and fight every six months, they can't make ends meet."


"We're definitely not getting our fair share of the cash," said another fighter currently under contract with the UFC. A fan favorite, he, too, refused to be named, citing concerns about the reaction from UFC management.

"Any opposition, they [expletive] crush it," said the fighter. "Until somebody starts a union, we're all sort of at their mercy."

From Fighter X:

"Their business practices are hardcore and cut-throat. We're paid like entertainers when we should be paid like athletes. They want us hungry. They want us to be poor … so they have more control over us."

"They make the fans out to think that they give out all these bonuses. They're [the bonuses] $5,000 to $10,000 on average. Most of the locker room bonuses I've seen are $5,000."

 

[SHOGUN]

ZUFFA does a lot of shady shit.