Enough is enough. Peyton Manning is the greatest QB of all time.

[MrBill]

Mike Vanderjagt missed a bunch of clutch kicks, and Adam Vinetieri made all of his.

For that, we "punish" Peyton Manning, and "reward" Tom Brady.

I agree completely with this. I think Tom Brady has gotten way to much love for winning 3 Superbowls by a combined 9 points. At least one of his games should have been a blowout if he was that great. Every single one shouldn't come down to being able to get his kicker in range to win the game. Manning has a ton of those games where his liquored up kicker screwed the team.

Understood that argument is a slippery slope though, because Favre gets punished over his defense giving up 4th and 26 in Philly and letting Plaxico have 11/155 in Green Bay a few years ago. If the Giants kicker had not missed about 3 FG's in the 4th quarter, the story of that game is the Packers defense getting their ass handed to them, not Favre's INT in OT.

The buck stops with the QB even though it shouldn't always be that way to reasonable fans watching the game. Like people always say, the QB gets too much credit for winning and too much blame for losing.

 

[Tailback U]

It's funny how John Elway is considered one of the best big game QB's of all time but everyone forgets that Elway was flat out embarrassed and god awful in the first 3 Super Bowls he played in.

Not to mention Elway's TD/INT ratio was pretty horrid the first 10 seasons of his career.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

I understand what you are getting and I agree with pretty much everything you have said, but I can't get over the fact that the same reasons you use to defend Peyton Manning are the same reasons you use to bash Drew Brees.

I know that Drew Brees does not have the win/loss record that Manning does, but if you want to ignore Montana's playoff statistics and records when comparing him to Manning then why can't you do the same when comparing Manning and Brees?

I know that Manning is better than Brees, but I just find it funny that you love to bash Brees as often as you can when he and Manning have so many similarities statistically.

Comparing Brees to Manning is insulting to Manning IMO.

In addition to being statistically superior to almost every QB to ever play the game, Peyton Manning leads his team to the playoffs every year, wins big games every year, has 3 MVP's, is a 4 time All Pro (not Pro Bowl, ALL PRO) and won a SB.

Drew Brees has led his team to the playoffs twice, and has ONE playoff win. His late season play in crucial situations has been well documented by me, and less elequently by Nuke. His 4th Q and "late & clutch" numbers drop off dramatically. I'mnot going to repost all of that stuff, because I assume everyone knows by now how ugly those numbers are.

He was a slightly better than above average player when he was with SD, and for all the talk of his big passing numbers, he only has one 30+ TD season. Drew Brees has 3 big statistical years on his resume, and almost nothing else. Manning has been a dominant player for a decade.

EDIT: The player most similar to Brees at this point is Jim Everett, who had three monster statistical years from 88-90, and was marginal the rest of his career. Everett really fell off the shelf after '90, and Brees probably won't, but at this point in his career, they are the same player.

Although, to be fair, Everett won two playoff games in three trips. So yeah.

SECOND EDIT: But to answer your question, with Manning/Montana we are talking about all time greats who have won SB's. With Brees, we are talking about a guy who barely ever makes the playoffs. At least I have some ammo when I defend Manning vs. Montana, as opposed to when people defend Brees, all they have is a 5,000 yard passing season.

 

[Tailback U]

Comparing Brees to Manning is insulting to Manning IMO.

In addition to being statistically superior to almost every QB to ever play the game, Peyton Manning leads his team to the playoffs every year, wins big games every year, has 3 MVP's, is a 4 time All Pro (not Pro Bowl, ALL PRO) and won a SB.

Drew Brees has led his team to the playoffs twice, and has ONE playoff win. His late season play in crucial situations has been well documented by me, and less elequently by Nuke. His 4th Q and "late & clutch" numbers drop off dramatically. I'mnot going to repost all of that stuff, because I assume everyone knows by now how ugly those numbers are.

He was a slightly better than above average player when he was with SD, and for all the talk of his big passing numbers, he only has one 30+ TD season. Drew Brees has 3 big statistical years on his resume, and almost nothing else. Manning has been a dominant player for a decade.

Actually, Drew Brees has had 5 great passing seasons.

2004: 3159 yards, 27 TDs, 7 INT. 104.8 QBR.

2005: 3576 yards, 24 TD, 14 INT. 89.2 QBR.

2006: 4418 yards, 26 TD, 11 INT. 96.2 QBR.

2007: 4423 yards, 28 TD, 18 INT. 89.4 QBR.

2008: 5069 yards, 34 TD, 17 INT. 96.2 QBR.

Brees played in just 1 game his rookie season and struggled for his first 2 seasons as a starter.

The last 5 seasons are comparable to Manning's. Manning has just done it twice as long. Brees is 3 years younger than Manning, but if he continues at his current pace for 5 more seasons (which is likely) and wins 1 Super Bowl the two will be comparable statistically speaking.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

I disagree.

Manning has nine 4,000+ yard seasons (out of eleven), and his career low is 3,739 (his rookie year). Brees has three (out of eight).

As for the last five years, Brees has one 30+ TD season (the only one of his career, btw) while Manning has three, including a year where he threw 49.

Over those five years, Manning lead the league in rating 3 times , and has three 100+ seasons. Brees has never led the league, and has one year over 100.

Again, Brees is closer to Jim Everett at this point than Peyton Manning.

 

[Tailback U]

I disagree.

Manning has nine 4,000+ yard seasons (out of eleven), and his career low is 3,739 (his rookie year). Brees has three (out of eight).

As for the last five years, Brees has one 30+ TD season (the only one of his career, btw) while Manning has three, including a year where he threw 49.

Over those five years, Manning lead the league in rating 3 times , and has three 100+ seasons. Brees has never led the league, and has one year over 100.

Again, Brees is closer to Jim Everett at this point than Peyton Manning.

I'm not arguing that Brees is better than Manning, only that you use statistics to proclaim Manning as the greatest of all time but when anybody brings up how good Brees' is you are quick to label his statistics "empty."

Manning has 1 Super Bowl win. If he hadn't of won that SB, would all of his stats be "empty," too? Or are his regular season statistics so good that that his post-season record and statistics don't matter?

And it's easy to see that Brees is just getting into his prime. His stats have gotten better every year so we haven't even seen his peak yet.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

I'm not arguing that Brees is better than Manning, only that you use statistics to proclaim Manning as the greatest of all time but when anybody brings up how good Brees' is you are quick to label his statistics "empty."

His stats are empty. He's accomplished nothing aside from a few seasons of big numbers.

Manning has 1 Super Bowl win. If he hadn't of won that SB, would all of his stats be "empty," too? Or are his regular season statistics so good that that his post-season record and statistics don't matter?

I addressed this about 3 or 4 times in this thread already. This thread wouldnt exist if Manning didnt win a SB.

However. he'd still be light years beyond Brees, because he at least wins his division/makes the playoffs every year, and would still have some postseason success. On top of the fact he still has better numbers than Brees, and everyone else, too.

He'd be lumped with the big numbers/no titles group of Dan Marino & Fran Tarkenton, which is still great company. Company Brees dosen't keep (yet?).

And it's easy to see that Brees is just getting into his prime. His stats have gotten better every year so we haven't even seen his peak yet.

Unlike the irrational Nuke, I don't completely write off Brees.

All of this Brees "bashing" started last year on MM when I made a thread decrying his MVP talk. I found it baffling that a QB who finished in last place and choked away a playoff birth (again) was being called an MVP contender.

He's a good player, and he may end up being a great one. Right now, no. He hasnt done enough to be called a great player.

 

[Tailback U]

I gotcha.

I'd say he is a great player in today's NFL.

All time great? Not yet.

 

[KINGOFOOTBALL]

Coupla things...

1. Im not sure why people are adamant on setting Montana's place in stone. Hes the greatest ever but its not some forever placement. Peyton really isnt that far off from accomplishing something that can garner him that spot. As mentioned hes still playing anything can happen.

2. Im sorry but cant underscore Montana winning a SB with none of the "dynasty" players.
His consistency with and without great players , reg to post season is extremely rare.

3. Tailback Needs to read through a thread before commenting from now on.

4. Theres no question whatsoever that the passing is infinitely easier now. Who cares if the defenses are faster and stronger ? The offensive lineman are also 30-50 lbs heavier , a shit ton stronger ,and .3 faster than anyone that protected Montana. WRs dont get touched the first 5 yards at all. What good is being fast and strong if you cant hit or cover anyone ?
TD passing record immediately fell twice after further rule "Adjustments". Im sorry but Im not looking at Peyton or Bradys inflated numbers and being awed by them.
I will however reiterate that Mannings game management and knowledge and control of his offense is nothing short of legendary. Far as Im concerned he IS the offensive genius on that team. Where as Montana knew and executed the WCO better than any QB has done with any offense..but Manning with no disrespect to Moore is as close to a self contained offensive system as we've ever seen.
It does seem to be a hindrance in some games. Bellyflop was able to frustrate Manning over and over. Manning offenses have always contained "soft" players. Having that entire system on his shoulders may have been too much pressure for him in games where someone like Walsh could have eased that off of him.

For the record. Im pretty sure someone on Atlanta confess to intentionally clubbing Montana in the head intentionally..thus he was in fact getting clubbed in the pocket.

 

[Bear Pand]

Manning takes all the credit in the regular season, yet shoulders none of the blame for the most part when his team fails to put up points in the playoffs. It's my biggest gripe.

He has a 7-8 record in the playoffs, which is atrocious, especially when his team relies on him that much.

The "what if" game is something that can't really be argued or even truly speculated. All we know is Brady has 3 rings, the RECORD for most TD passes in a single season, led his team to an 18-0 record, led the most prolific offense of all time, and has a staggering amount of playoff success as well as regular season.

Peyton's holding himself back in history, IMO, because of his playoff failures. They're well-documented, hell -- he got bashed here last year in the Indianapolis Star because of his failure last year in the post-season, where his defense got him many stops, yet that offense only put up 17 points on the NFL's 32nd ranked pass D in the league. What gives?

*Remembers Kornstar arguing that Manning couldn't get it done without James and Harrison*

*Looks at Manning's numbers this year*

*Burns the Indy Star*

 

[KoRnStARr]

Mike Vanderjagt missed a bunch of clutch kicks, and Adam Vinetieri made all of his.

For that, we "punish" Peyton Manning, and "reward" Tom Brady.

How different would each man's current legacy be, had Vandejagt made all of those kicks, and Vinetieri missed vs. the Raiders, or the Rams, or the Panthers...or all of the above?

Instead, some of you guys look at Mannings playoff record and say "He's only 7-8 RAWR no clutch", which is a load of bullshit, not only because of the above statements on the Colts kicking game, but the fact that he has a ring., which some of you will still knock by saying he didnt play very well in doing so. Well, what about the times he played lights out, and his "idiot kicker" choked it away? No brownie points from the hypocrites?

EDIT: If Manning had no rings, this thread never gets started. I'd be the first to say, stop blaming kickers, stop blaming defense, just get it done "Marino". However, he won his ring, and to me, a second or third ring would make it impossible to debate anyone aside from Montana, who I already think Peyton is a better player than anyway, from just watching both play.

Gotta love the "what if" game Manning backers use to support his playoff play.

Manning doesn't close games out when the game is hanging in the balance.

And yes, when Manning won his SB, he almost Trent Dilfered that joint. He played GREAT in the AFCCG, but his run game/D CARRIED him through out that run. 3 TDs, 7 INTs.

p.s. brady is back

 

[Gonzo]

Gotta love the "what if" game Manning backers use to support his playoff play.

Manning doesn't close games out when the game is hanging in the balance.

And yes, when Manning won his SB, he almost Trent Dilfered that joint. He played GREAT in the AFCCG, but his run game/D CARRIED him through out that run. 3 TDs, 7 INTs.

p.s. brady is back

In the Super Bowl, Peyton Manning is 1-0.

 

[killgod]

Tom Brady just took a shit on this thread btw.

 

[MrBill]

Tom Brady just took a shit on this thread btw.

So did Brett Favre since he was actually playing a winning team today.

 

[Bear Pand]

not really

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

Tom Brady just took a shit on this thread btw.

You're right.

Brady throwing 6 TD's vs. an 0-6 team completely changes my opinion.

Let me go edit the OP....

 

[MrBill]

You're right.

Brady throwing 6 TD's vs. an 0-6 team completely changes my opinion.

Let me go edit the OP....

:laugh:

 

[Fox1994]

lol. I wasn't sure about Manning - especially with the ever-present Manning-Brady comparisons - because he had Reggie Wayne and Marvin Harrison. He's done a lot already with this new crop of dudes I can't even name. . . He does still have Reggie and Anthony Gonzalez, though. . . But would Gonzalez even be looked-at as good if he hadn't been playing with Peyton? Like Ted Ginn is seen as situational being in Miami, what might he do in Indy?

Anywho, I'd take Montana over Peyton because of mobility issues. . . it's just that Peyton is generally in such a position between his receivers and his own decision-making that he doesn't need mobility. As aforementioned, though, he impressed me last year with showing that even he will come out of the pocket to make something happen. (Interestingly enough, that's one of the years he's had his least rushing attempts. lol. Guess I wasn't paying attention.)

I'd say Montana is better as long as he has four rings and Peyton has one. When Peyton gets three I'll say they're even. Or if he gets two and his stats are head and shoulders ahead. Here's their respective numbers (up to this week in the season for Peyton) so y'all will have a point-of-reference for future comparison:

Montana: 1979-1994 (1979-1992 SF 49ers, 1993-1994), 192 G, 164 GS, 117-47 WIN-LOSS, 3409/5391 CMP/ATT, 63.2%, 40551 Yds, 273 TD, 139 INT, 7.5 Y/A, SACKED 313

457 ATT, 1676 YDS, 20 TD, 3.7 Y/A

8 PRO BOWLS, 3 ALL-PRO, 2 MVP, 4 SUPER BOWL VICTORY, 3 SUPER BOWL MVP

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/MontJo01.htm

---

Peyton: 1998-2009* (1998-2009 still going IND Colts), 181 G, 176 GS, 117-59 WIN-LOSS, 3972/6141 CMP/ATT, 64.1 %, 47273 YDS, 345 TD, 169 INT, 7.7 Y/A, SACKED 207

316 ATT, 714 YDS, 17 TD, 2.3 Y/A

9 PRO BOWLS, 4 ALL-PRO, 3 MVP, 1 SUPER BOWL VICTORY, 1 SUPER BOWL MVP

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/MannPe00.htm

---

Unitas (Since I think he's the best): 1956-1973 (1956-1972 BAL Colts, 1973 SDG Chargers), 211 G, 186 GS, 118-64-4, 2830/5186 CMP/ATT, 54.6 %, 40239 YDS, 290 TD, 253 INT, 7.8 Y/A, SACKED 590

450 ATT, 1777 YDS, 13 TD, 3.9 Y/A

10 PRO BOWLS, 5 ALL-PRO, 3 MVP, 2 NFL CHAMPS, 1 SUPER BOWL VICTORY

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/U/UnitJo00.htm

---

Unitas's stats aren't as nice, but - as y'all have said, this was before the 'passer-friendly' NFL.

Hope I was helpful, or somethin'. . .

 

[killgod]

You're right.

Brady throwing 6 TD's vs. an 0-6 team completely changes my opinion.

Let me go edit the OP....

But it was a regular season game! Cmon man!

 

[KoRnStARr]

You're right.

Brady throwing 6 TD's vs. an 0-6 team completely changes my opinion.

Let me go edit the OP....

Didn't you make this thread after Manning played the SAME TEAM?

lol @ this guy