Enough is enough. Peyton Manning is the greatest QB of all time.

[Warner2BruceTD]

Stats only tell so much, as they're so influenced by other factors such as matchups, teammates, schemes, coaching, etc and in hindsight they can be manipulated to fit almost any argument. This is why I've always been a fan of the eyeball test and for me Peyton Manning is certainly among the best I've seen and given his responsibilities and consistency will more than likely go down as the greatest.

This is my original post, way back on page one, in a nutshell. Watching him play, I feel like he's a level above anyone esle i've ever seen. His numbers are amazing, and just icing on the cake.

 

[JeremyHight]

I don't know how you can come to this conclusion, when Manning has more yards, TD's, completions, a higher completion percentage, etc than Montana, in roughly the same amount of games (in fact, I think Manning has played less games).

What this comes down to, is i'm looking at the entire scope of Manning's career, and you choose to penalize him for his postseason QB rating (which really isnt even a bad number).

That's fine, I just disagree.

Post-Season Stats (Per Game where applicable)

Completion %
QB A - 61.7%
QB B - 62.7%
QB C - 60.7%

QB Rating
QB A - 85.0
QB B - 95.6
QB C - 85.2

Passing Yards
QB A - 281
QB B - 251
QB C - 241

TDs
QB A - 1.5
QB B - 2.0
QB C - 1.8

Interceptions
QB A - 1.1
QB B - 0.9
QB C - 1.3

Yards/Attempt
QB A - 7.46
QB B - 7.86
QB C - 7.37

Adjusted Yards/Attempt
QB A - 6.88
QB B - 7.80
QB C - 6.70

These are the stats of 3 QBs. All have over 15 post-season games, so a relatively fair sample size for every stat. Which do you take if you have to win 3-4 games against the top competition and hopefully, take home a Super Bowl ring?

To me, it's not even close for #1 (QB B), but #2 and #3 (QB A and C) are pretty close. Can you guess who is who?

 

[Bear Pand]

These are the stats of 3 QBs. All have over 15 post-season games, so a relatively fair sample size for every stat. Which do you take if you have to win 3-4 games against the top competition and hopefully, take home a Super Bowl ring?

To me, it's not even close for #1 (QB B), but #2 and #3 (QB A and C) are pretty close. Can you guess who is who?

That's a ridiculous question unless all three QBs compiled those statistics with the same defense, o-line, skill position players and role in the offense. This isn't baseball.

 

[JeremyHight]

That's a ridiculous question unless all three QBs compiled those statistics with the same defense, o-line, skill position players and role in the offense. This isn't baseball.

So stats aren't a part of the equation either? Fair enough, throw out everybody's regular season stats and then we can decide who is the best QB, sound fair?

 

[Bear Pand]

So stats aren't a part of the equation either? Fair enough, throw out everybody's regular season stats and then we can decide who is the best QB, sound fair?

Regular season stats are more reliable cause there's a much larger sample size.

But if you want go ahead and throw regular season stats out of the equation. From the QBs I've seen stats or no stats Manning has been the best one.

 

[JeremyHight]

Regular season stats are more reliable cause there's a much larger sample size.

Yes, a much larger sample size against worse quality teams. Since, as always, we judge how good QBs are when they play teams under .500 as opposed to when they play the best teams in the league. That is just a given, right?

But if you want go ahead and throw regular season stats out of the equation. From the QBs I've seen stats or no stats Manning has been the best one.

Alright, so throwing out all the stats, you are going to tell me that when watching Manning in the post season, he just screams "Greatest QB of all time"? If so, I think we can both agree that you haven't watched much football outside of the last 5-10 years.

 

[Deviant]

I agree with that. I'd love for someone to actually tell me what exactly goes into QB rating without googling it.

I actually do know this... kind of.

They individually do four diff. equations. I believe it's completion percentage (C), TDs per throw (T), INTs per throw (I), and yards per throw (Y). You have to work out each equation and the caps for each equation is 0 and 2.375. Then, it's all calculated into a huge equation which is (C + T + I + Y)/6 x 100.

One of the weird things about the rating system is that if you don't throw an INT, you automatically earn 1/4 of the perfect rating (158.3) because of the equation. The INT rating is something like 2.375 - (number of INT/attempts x 25). So, JaMarcus Russell can go 0-for-45, 0 yards, and no TDs/INTs and still have a passer rating of 39.7. However, someone like Derek Anderson (in that awful game he had) can go 2-for-17, for 23 and because he threw only one interception and no TDs, his rating will automatically go under 39.7. It's a really fucked up system to be honest.

 

[Bear Pand]

Yes, a much larger sample size against worse quality teams. Since, as always, we judge how good QBs are when they play teams under .500 as opposed to when they play the best teams in the league. That is just a given, right?

My point is this, when you try bring up Manning's playoff QB Rating and INT/gm and it gets silly. Oh Manning throws 1.1 INTs/game in the playoffs! Yeah nearly half of those came in 2 games. Big deal. The sample size is too small.

I mean Jake Delhomme has comparable yards/game, QB rating, INTs/gm TDs/gm in the playoffs if you compare him to Manning. No one in their right mind is ever going to take Delhomme over Manning in a playoff game.

Alright, so throwing out all the stats, you are going to tell me that when watching Manning in the post season, he just screams "Greatest QB of all time"? If so, I think we can both agree that you haven't watched much football outside of the last 5-10 years.

If we're just looking at postseason no, whole body of work yes. I don't think anyone is trying to argue Manning is the best postseason QB of all time.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

If we're just looking at postseason no, whole body of work yes. I don't think anyone is trying to argue Manning is the best postseason QB of all time.

Exactly.

I long ago conceded that Montana has that edge. However, it's not a big enough edge for me to discount the rest of Manning's career, or the mitigating factors i've already noted (mainly, Vandejagt).

I'm not going to downgrade Manning's career for "only" being pretty good in the postseason. Makes no sense. JH talks as if he's playing 16 games per year vs. terrible teams, then chokes it up come playoff time. Bullshit. They play a first place schedule nearly every year, and he's been a pretty good postseason QB.

 

[JeremyHight]

So let me get this straight... you're both saying that Manning isn't even in the conversation for Best QB in the Post-Season, but you're saying that he is the Best QB of All-Time?

In other words, you wouldn't take him first if you were going to be facing equal or better talented teams, but if you had to win 14 games in the regular season, you would take him hands down. That is laughable at best. How do you say a QB is Best All-Time when he isn't even in the conversation for being the best QB when facing talented defenses and pressure situations?

I cannot help but laugh at both of you. Here's hoping Peyton tears it up against Tennessee again, who cares if he is average in the playoffs, did you see that throw against Houston?

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

So let me get this straight... you're both saying that Manning isn't even in the conversation for Best QB in the Post-Season, but you're saying that he is the Best QB of All-Time?

In other words, you wouldn't take him first if you were going to be facing equal or better talented teams, but if you had to win 14 games in the regular season, you would take him hands down. That is laughable at best. How do you say a QB is Best All-Time when he isn't even in the conversation for being the best QB when facing talented defenses and pressure situations?

I cannot help but laugh at both of you. Here's hoping Peyton tears it up against Tennessee again, who cares if he is average in the playoffs, did you see that throw against Houston?

I think what you are missing here, is that I don't think Manning has been as bad in the postseason as you seem to think he's been. He's been a pretty good postseason QB. He's won a SB. Combine that with how dominant he's been for his entire career, how great his numbers are, and the fact he's carried that team on his back for a decade, and the way he commands the offense and controls a game, all adds up to me as the best QB ever.

I don't see the point in ripping the guy for an 85 postseason QB rating. First of all, that's not a bad QB Rating. It's not 65. Secondly, he's had a handful of playoff games where he played very well, led combacks, and lost due to his K or other wacky reasons. He's also had stinkers. So has Montana, I listed them about 10 pages ago.

The point is, he has one SB, had played well enough to win more, and, gun to my head, he will win more before he's done.

I don't even know why I keep responding. I'm looking at the entire scope of the man's career, and your focused on this idea of postseason QB rating. You're one of these "postseason is everything" guys, and that's fine.

 

[Bear Pand]

So let me get this straight... you're both saying that Manning isn't even in the conversation for Best QB in the Post-Season, but you're saying that he is the Best QB of All-Time?

In other words, you wouldn't take him first if you were going to be facing equal or better talented teams, but if you had to win 14 games in the regular season, you would take him hands down. That is laughable at best. How do you say a QB is Best All-Time when he isn't even in the conversation for being the best QB when facing talented defenses and pressure situations?

I cannot help but laugh at both of you. Here's hoping Peyton tears it up against Tennessee again, who cares if he is average in the playoffs, did you see that throw against Houston?

lol at you making up stats like Regular Season - Post Season QB Rating differential

Its pointless I remember arguing all the way back to MM with you when you'd say things like Manning puts up good numbers cause of the talent around him.

 

[Senser81]

So let me get this straight... you're both saying that Manning isn't even in the conversation for Best QB in the Post-Season, but you're saying that he is the Best QB of All-Time?

People do the same thing with Unitas. He was routinely outplayed by Bart Starr in head-to-head matchups and in the postseason, yet some people still consider Unitas to be the #1 QB of all-time while Starr isn't even in the conversation.

 

[KoRnStARr]

Exactly.

I long ago conceded that Montana has that edge. However, it's not a big enough edge for me to discount the rest of Manning's career, or the mitigating factors i've already noted (mainly, Vandejagt).

I'm not going to downgrade Manning's career for "only" being pretty good in the postseason. Makes no sense. JH talks as if he's playing 16 games per year vs. terrible teams, then chokes it up come playoff time. Bullshit. They play a first place schedule nearly every year, and he's been a pretty good postseason QB.

It's because he does and he has.

He's won 3 NFL MVPs, with nothing to show for it in any of those years. He's had the #1 ranked offense numerous times through out his career, with nothing to show.

He's lost in the first round of the playoffs 6 times. One and dones.

He is not the same QB in the postseason. That's why I laugh at dumbass threads like these. He's played abysmal teams this year, has done great, and will once again fold in the playoffs and play bad when it matters most.

Hell, last year his O only put up 17 points against an 8-8 Chargers team with the 32nd ranked pass D. This always happens. I don't want to hear about Vanderjagt -- he's missed one potential game winner, a very tough kick in Miami. The Colts/Steelers game the Steelers had the Manning led-O in a CAGE. The game should've been over with the Polamalu pick. When Manning WAS given the opportunity to win the game, he kept going for the home run ball rather then move the ball down the field to get in closer FG range or for an actual TD drive. He had guys wide open underneath, but as usual nutted up.

7-8 playoff record -- yeah, blame the defense.... yet give him all the credit when he beats these teams in the regular season.

 

[ralaw]

I'm confused. People are making it seem as if Manning doesn't have a SB ring. He's won a SB, so obviously he's proven that he can lead a team to a SB win, so all of this talk of career playoff record being one game below .500 is pointless. Generally, these discussions come down to one thing and that is "have you won a championship" and nothing more and Manning has won one, so he's proven himself.

This is why this ranking QB's based on SB talk is so retarded, because people convienently slide the scale where they want it to be to fit an argument.

 

[KoRnStARr]

I'm confused. People are making it seem as if Manning doesn't have a SB ring. He's won a SB, so obviously he's proven that he can lead a team to a SB win, so all of this talk of career playoff record being one game below .500 is pointless. Generally, these discussions are about one thing and that is "have you won a championship" and nothing more and Manning has won one.

This is why this ranking QB's based on SB talk is so retarded, because people convienently slide the scale where they want it to be to fit an argument.

The year he DID win the SB his D/run game carried him. He had 3 TDs, 7INTs that year during his SB run. Awful.

He's also the only "GREAT" NFL QB to pitch a SHUTOUT LOSS in a playoff game...0 points against the Jets in 2001. My god.

 

[ralaw]

The year he DID win the SB his D/run game carried him. He had 3 TDs, 7INTs that year during his SB run. Awful.

He's also the only "GREAT" NFL QB to pitch a SHUTOUT LOSS in a playoff game...0 points against the Jets in 2001. My god.

He wouldn't be the first SB winning QB to be complimented by a great defense....would he? Ae we now downgrading guys for being on good teams? Actually, I can't think of a single QB that exemplifies the "carried his team to a championship" aura.

 

[Bear Pand]

I'd take Brady over Manning instantly if those i got those Superbowl defenses and Belichick with him. That's the only way though.

He wouldn't be the first SB winning QB to be complimented by a great defense....would he? Ae we now downgrading guys for being on good teams? Actually, I can't think of a single QB that exemplifies the "carried his team to a championship" aura.

Me either.

The year he DID win the SB his D/run game carried him. He had 3 TDs, 7INTs that year during his SB run. Awful.

He's also the only "GREAT" NFL QB to pitch a SHUTOUT LOSS in a playoff game...0 points against the Jets in 2001. My god.

Meanwhile you'll rant and rave about how Big Ben is on pace to be the best QB of all time while conveniently ignoring how bad he was in that Seahawks Superbowl.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

The year he DID win the SB his D/run game carried him. He had 3 TDs, 7INTs that year during his SB run. Awful.

He's also the only "GREAT" NFL QB to pitch a SHUTOUT LOSS in a playoff game...0 points against the Jets in 2001. My god.

If you are going to knock him for a lackluster postseason when he won the SB, then you have to praise him for his outstanding performances in the playoffs nullified by his kicker or other factors blowing what would have been great comebacks.

Be consistant.

 

[JeremyHight]

I'm confused. People are making it seem as if Manning doesn't have a SB ring. He's won a SB, so obviously he's proven that he can lead a team to a SB win, so all of this talk of career playoff record being one game below .500 is pointless. Generally, these discussions come down to one thing and that is "have you won a championship" and nothing more and Manning has won one, so he's proven himself.

This is why this ranking QB's based on SB talk is so retarded, because people convienently slide the scale where they want it to be to fit an argument.

When you are splitting hairs by trying to pick between several amazing QBs to decide who is the best ever, you are going to look at their post-season accomplishments and downfalls with a microscope. Yes, he's won a championship, he is easily a hall of famer, but saying he is the best ever is a whole different leap.

Again, all of these QBs being mentioned are great, but when you have to pick one, yes, people are going to nitpick every last thing because that is just how close all of these guys are.