Great Article on The Captain - Derek Jeter

[Senser81]

Its official...Lefty34 has lost yet another argument...this time, in dramatic fashion.

 

[DJ Fog]

I beg to differ. But listen, if you guys want to call into the show tonight and have a live, real-time discussion about this, you are more than welcome to call in and bring it up, in fact I ENCOURAGE you to call in. We go live tonight at 7PM CST at http://www.blogtalkradio.com/643Sports

If you can't write out good arguments when you have the time to research and formulate better arguments, how the fuck are you going to verbally on the spot come up with good responses?

Are you being an idiot in multiples threads just to try to lure people into listening and calling in? I'm not gonna search through your posts to find out, but I wouldn't doubt it, and it's a pretty lame move.

 

[The Messenger]

lol @ Lefty.

I believe JeremyHight put it best. Too many people on this site trying to be intellectuals when they really aren't.

 

[SethMode]

I beg to differ. But listen, if you guys want to call into the show tonight and have a live, real-time discussion about this, you are more than welcome to call in and bring it up, in fact I ENCOURAGE you to call in. We go live tonight at 7PM CST at http://www.blogtalkradio.com/643Sports

WTF? So, this can't continue in print, we have to call in to some blog radio show thing?

I don't care about whatever stink you have with Senser, I asked some legitimate questions that you refuse to answer. I almost wish I had seen this link in time, but odds are I would have just been ganged up on, so, no harm done.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

Jeter is one of those players that always scores badly with these silly, made up fielding statistics, yet when you watch him play, he clearly does a competent job fielding his position. He's not Omar Vizquel (who, btw, also scores worse than you think with all of that silly Baseball Prospectus stuff), but he's perfectly average, and like it or not, has a flair for making dramatic plays at crucial times.

Stat dorks can try all they want, but baseball fielding is alot like football offensive line play. You just have to watch, because no stat can ever tell the story. Nobody who watches Jeter play would ever come to the conclusion he's "the least effective player in baseball at fielding his position". That assertion is just flat out stupid, for lack of a better term.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

His has a career UZR/150 (Ultimate Zone Rating per 150 games in Runs Above Average) of -4.8 and a career Fielding Runs Above Average of -104. He's just not that good at turning balls hit near him into outs, I'm sorry.

I mean, how can anyone take that stuff seriously?

There are so many variables involved in those phony stats, from having opportunities, to the type of pitchers on your team, to how hard balls are hit, to where the fielder is positioned before the pitch, the score of the game, etc etc etc.

I know those dorks try really hard with this stuff (i'm a big Bill James fan, and even though I think they try to hard and are completely full of shit, I read the Baseball Prospectus stuff), but you just cant put reliable numbers on fielding.

 

[The Messenger]

I'm not going to get into a pissing contest with a bunch of douchebags to prove who is smart/smarter/smartest on an internet message board, particularly on one devoted to video games.



I never said it "can't continue in print", numbnuts, but if I can liven up my show and have some good discussion with people passionate about a topic, what would be the harm?



Ok well I must have missed those, please re-ask or quote them and I will answer to the best of my abilities.



No, you wouldn't have to be perfectly honest. Sound clips might have been played in an attempt to make people laugh, but that's about it. But fine, don't listen, I don't really give a shit, it seems people only comment on our show to say how much it sucks or how against listening to it they are anyway.



Those are all valid points, and fielding metrics, while suspect at best, at least put some type of value on fielding, something that is objective rather than subjective and ambiguous.



Are the numbers reliable? Eh, maybe, but more than likely they are not (though they do provide some sort of starting point). But the new system MLB is going to be testing out in the next few years to track the movement of players around the field should provide some legit fielding statistics that are more reliable than someone saying "I WATCH DA YANKEES PLAY, AND JETER IS AWESOME!!!!!"

lol you went off of statistics that you now admit are probably not reliable. Like W2BTD said, if you watch Jeter play, he is more than capable of playing shortstop.

My original point was that Jeter wasn't a great shortstop and he probably would've been a much better center fielder, but we had a great center fielder at the time Jeter was coming up and now we have a guy who was molded into a short who can play average or above average defense at short and can hit like it's nobodies business. That's why I said I would much rather have Jeter over any shortstop not named Cal Ripken, Jr (meaning players that I've grown up and watched play, not guys from way back in the day).

He does a good enough job on defense and even has a flair for the dramatic at times, and with that bat at that position, I think any team would take Jeter at short.

 

[DJ Fog]

I'm not going to get into a pissing contest with a bunch of douchebags to prove who is smart/smarter/smartest on an internet message board, particularly on one devoted to video games.

Here's some tampon for us vsn douchebags that are unintelligent in your opinion

 

[The Messenger]

I also based my points off of the study quoted earlier in the thread.



Well, admittedly, I don't watch Jeter play that often, so I have to rely on the other people that watch a lot more of Jeter than I do, which is why the aforementioned study was so helpful: because they watched tape of every single ball hit towards Jeter over a long period of time.

And do you know what the panel of guys said after watching all those baseballs hit towards Jeter (just like people in this thread have repeatedly said is necessary to grasp Jeter's abilities at SS)? They said he isn't very good at the position. Now, if you want to argue the semantics of the 22nd-ranked SS in the league not actually being the least effective at turning batted balls into outs, fine, but that doesn't change the fact that there are a contingent of people (most of whom, if not considered baseball experts outright, are de facto experts) that have watched a lot of film of Jeter playing the SS position and concluded that he isn't very good at the defensive aspect of the position.



But you don't have that guy. You have a guy that can tear the cover off of the ball, but plays well below-average defense at SS. And there is nothing wrong with that. Nothing at all. Jeter, year in and year out, has provided the Yankees with more than enough offense to make up for his defensive inabilities, there is no question there, but that still doesn't make him a good defender.



And I would take Jeter too, you know why? Because the dude can hit like very few can.

Look, many people have pointed out that defensive metrics as tools for evaluating the abilities of players are shaky, which I agree with. Even more people have noted that it is necessary to watch a lot of a player actually playing defense in order to grasp how good they are at the position, and that is more than acceptable. So, with that in hand, go back and read the article on the study that was done, the one that listed Jeter as one of the poorer defenders in the MLB right now, because that panel did exactly what people have said is necessary to grasp the abilities of a player at a defensive position. They reviewed every baseball hit towards Jeter for the 2008 season, and concluded that he was one of the worst SS in the game. Oh yeah, and then there's this (careful, there be numbers and acronyms ahead!!!!)

Now, again, if people want to argue over semantics and puff up their chest like they actually proved some sort of anything about Jeter's defensive abilities by arguing said semantics, fine. But really, that doesn't do anything to change the (scary, nerdy) numbers nor does it change the conclusions of a panel of people that reviewed every baseball hit towards Derek Jeter over a complete season, which I might point out again, is the thing that many people have said is necessary to grasp Jeter's defensive abilities.

Once again, you're not seeing the point. I don't really care to go on, Senser tried to hammer it home to you and you couldn't see it so I'm just wasting my time.

Half of your argument fell apart in your hands when you admitted that those stats are probably not reliable. The other half is starting to crumble with statements like "Well, admittedly, I don't watch Jeter play that often, so I have to rely on the other people that watch a lot more of Jeter than I do".

Save yourself the time and frustration and just watch more Yankees games.

 

[Senser81]

I was very surprised when I watched Game 1 of the Twins-Yankees series. Sure, Derek Jeter made nearly all the big plays and led his team to a comeback win, but what the heck was Joe Girardi doing playing Jeter at SS? Shouldn't he have put Jeter at DH?! This IS the playoffs. I think its just a disaster waiting to happen by playing the least effective defensive player in the MLB at the SS position.

My guess is that the Twins win the next 3 games and the Yankees get knocked out of the postseason.

 

[DJ Fog]

I was very surprised when I watched Game 1 of the Twins-Yankees series. Sure, Derek Jeter made nearly all the big plays and led his team to a comeback win, but what the heck was Joe Girardi doing playing Jeter at SS? Shouldn't he have put Jeter at DH?! This IS the playoffs. I think its just a disaster waiting to happen by playing the least effective defensive player in the MLB at the SS position.

My guess is that the Twins win the next 3 games and the Yankees get knocked out of the postseason.

Seriously.. maybe Jeter can switch with Matsui and he could play SS for a game or two to see how he does. It isn't possible to downgrade from the worst is it?

 

[Senser81]

Seriously.. maybe Jeter can switch with Matsui and he could play SS for a game or two to see how he does. It isn't possible to downgrade from the worst is it?

I've heard that Brian Cashman is interested in acquiring Adam Dunn in the offseason, and then inserting Dunn into the SS position. Cashman said he wants to shore up the left side of his infield.

 

[DJ Fog]

I heard the Yankees we having open tryouts for SS for the first time in history in the offseason, since they're so sick of saying Jeter is the worst short stop to ever live, and figure even a random bum off the streets of the Bronx could cover more ground than the Captain.

 

[Senser81]

I heard the Yankees we having open tryouts for SS for the first time in history in the offseason, since they're so sick of saying Jeter is the worst short stop to ever live, and figure even a random bum off the streets of the Bronx could cover more ground than the Captain.

That would actually be pretty sweet. My brother works in New York, and his UZR/150 rating in Little League was off the charts! He'd fit in well alongside A-Rod.

 

[Anthony]

I tried out for the SS position they said I wasn't as bad as Jeter defensively. Needless to say I didn't make the team.

 

[Rayman]

Holy shit, how did I miss the gold in this thread? The idiotic generalization, the supporting of stats one doesn't even understand and the subsequent backtracking make me smile.

And whoring out your own crappy radio show in the process? That's just doubly sweet.

Nothing else needs to be said here. Carry on.

 

[Senser81]

I'm surprised that more isn't being made of the Yankees unlikely run to the World Series. They have been severely handicapped in every matchup, basically playing without a shortstop. It reminds me of the Loyola-Marymount College bball team from 1990...overcoming tremendous adversity while being a huge underdog.

Can anyone recall the last time the Yankees won the World Series? Its probable that this would be their first.

 

[DJ Fog]

The Yankees haven't won the WS in eons.. something like 3480 years or so.


Or something like the year 2000 I heard. Derek Jeter was on the team, but if I remember right he was benched.

 

[Senser81]

So, the Phillies are the defending champs, a great team from top to bottom, and they lose to the Yankees in 5 games? Losing 4 straight after winning game 1?

My question is: where do you rate the Yankees win over Philly in the overall list of greatest upsets in sports history? To beat a great Phillies team with the least effective defensive player in baseball regardless of position playing shortstop is incredible...it would be like the Dolphins winning the Super Bowl with Ronnie Brown at QB. I am stunned at this outcome. Here is where I would rank this upset...

1) 1980 US hockey vs. USSR
2) 2009 Yankees vs. Phillies
3) Buster Douglass vs. Mike Tyson
4) SB III Jets vs. Colts
5) Appalachian State vs. Michigan in college football

 

[SethMode]

So, the Phillies are the defending champs, a great team from top to bottom, and they lose to the Yankees in 5 games? Losing 4 straight after winning game 1?

My question is: where do you rate the Yankees win over Philly in the overall list of greatest upsets in sports history? To beat a great Phillies team with the least effective defensive player in baseball regardless of position playing shortstop is incredible...it would be like the Dolphins winning the Super Bowl with Ronnie Brown at QB. I am stunned at this outcome. Here is where I would rank this upset...

1) 1980 US hockey vs. USSR
2) 2009 Yankees vs. Phillies
3) Buster Douglass vs. Mike Tyson
4) SB III Jets vs. Colts
5) Appalachian State vs. Michigan in college football

It was in six games, but I like the sentiment. This thread is never going to go away and I love it. :laughing:

Allow me to add by saying that I hope the bridge that NY is going to build in honor of Jeter is more effective at handling traffic than Jeter is at fielding a routine grounder. Things could get ugly!