HOF poll on Observer site

[LiquidLarry2GhostWF]

His success as an author never translated to buyrates, ratings, or any metric of being a bigger star in wrestling. His most success in wrestling actually came the calendar year BEFORE the book came out.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

His success as an author never translated to buyrates, ratings, or any metric of being a bigger star in wrestling. His most success in wrestling actually came the calendar year BEFORE the book came out.

Umm, his success writing WRESTLING books has doesn't traslate into being a star in WRESTLING?

Is this real life? Is selling books not drawing money? Did WWE not create an entire book division off of the success he created?

 

[s@ppisgod]

If there were a Wrestling Observer Writing Hall of Fame, then I'd put Foley in first. But him selling books or Rock selling movies makes no difference in his drawing power as a wrestler.

 

[LiquidLarry2GhostWF]

Umm, his success writing WRESTLING books has doesn't traslate into being a star in WRESTLING?

I this real life? Is selling books not drawing money? Did WWE not create an entire book division off of the success he created?

Do we discredit Vince McMahon's ability to make a wrestling product based off the XFL? Why would we give credit to Foley's success as an author with his star power as a wrestler? Do we credit John Cena's magnificent work in The Marine for WWE Films and using it to apply to his star power as a wrestler? I certainly don't.

Its not like Hogan making Rocky III and coming back and suddenly being the biggest star in wrestling.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

If there were a Wrestling Observer Writing Hall of Fame, then I'd put Foley in first. But him selling books or Rock selling movies makes no difference in his drawing power as a wrestler.

I'm staring at my monitor and don't even know how to respond.

First of all, the debate here is Sting vs Foley, bigger star. Foley as a Hall of Famer is a slam dunk, I don't think anybody would argue that.

Second, what is the end game in the pro wrestling business? What is the goal of every person involved in wrestling? It's to draw money. Foley wrote wrestling books that drew an enormous amount of money, both for him, and the promoter he worked for.

How on earth can you spin that into not meaning anything in terms of being a part of his wrestling career? Rock's movies aren't wrestling movies. I agree they don't add anything to his wrestling resume. But the situations are not equal. Foley's books are wrestling books.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

Do we discredit Vince McMahon's ability to make a wrestling product based off the XFL? Why would we give credit to Foley's success as an author with his star power as a wrestler? Do we credit John Cena's magnificent work in The Marine for WWE Films and using it to apply to his star power as a wrestler? I certainly don't.

Its not like Hogan making Rocky III and coming back and suddenly being the biggest star in wrestling.

Holy shit you guys are missing the point so badly.

Foley doesn't sell a single book if he wasn't a star, that's why. Nobody would have cared about his career enough to buy his books.

You know, like Sting.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

So let me get this straight. Foley's books don't count because wrestling books somehow don't have anything to do with wrestling (huh?), Foley drawing the biggest quarter hour in wrestling history (a fucking 8.4) doesn't count because it was with The Rock, Foley main eventing WrestleMania and main eventing PPV's and main eventing sold out house shows, none of that counts because he was simply a cog in a machine....but Sting's ONE buyrate that he popped, that counts baby, his ONE year out of nearly 30 that he meant anything, that trumps everything.

I give up. Towel thrown.

 

[s@ppisgod]

I'm staring at my monitor and don't even know how to respond.

First of all, the debate here is Sting vs Foley, bigger star. Foley as a Hall of Famer is a slam dunk, I don't think anybody would argue that.

Second, what is the end game in the pro wrestling business? What is the goal of every person involved in wrestling? It's to draw money. Foley wrote wrestling books that drew an enormous amount of money, both for him, and the promoter he worked for.

How on earth can you spin that into not meaning anything in terms of being a part of his wrestling career? Rock's movies aren't wrestling movies. I agree they don't add anything to his wrestling resume. But the situations are not equal. Foley's books are wrestling books.

So if Earl Hebner writes a smash hit of a book tomorrow, then he's technically a WRESTLING draw to you tomorrow, as long as it's under the WWE's umbrella?

 

[LiquidLarry2GhostWF]

So let me get this straight. Foley's books don't count because wrestling books somehow don't have anything to do with wrestling (huh?), Foley drawing the biggest quarter hour in wrestling history (a fucking 8.4) doesn't count because it was with The Rock, Foley main eventing WrestleMania and main eventing PPV's and main eventing sold out house shows, none of that counts because he was simply a cog in a machine....but Sting's ONE buyrate that he popped, that counts baby, his ONE year out of nearly 30 that he meant anything, that trumps everything.

I give up. Towel thrown.

I am 1000% certain you have previously stated that everyone but Austin and the Rock was merely a cog in the machine of the WWE at the time, or riding the coattails of, it was some kind of wording like that.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

So if Earl Hebner writes a smash hit of a book tomorrow, then he's technically a WRESTLING draw to you tomorrow, as long as it's under the WWE's umbrella?

Earl Hebner wouldn't have a smash book, because say it with me...he isn't a big enough star.

But if even if he did, where is the rest of his resume? Foley has more meat to his argument than just his books. But the books certainly are an indicator of his overall star power, not sure how you don't see it that way. I think you are overthinking this.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

I am 1000% certain you have previously stated that everyone but Austin and the Rock was merely a cog in the machine of the WWE at the time, or riding the coattails of, it was some kind of wording like that.

I'm not arguing that Foley is a bigger star than Austin or Rock. I'm arguing he's a bigger star than Sting.

And to some extent, yes, Foley, Triple H, Undertaker, they were all along for the ride but all contributed to the success to varying degrees. This is also drifting slightly from the debate, which is bigger star, Foley or Sting? The reasons don't even matter. Even if it is because he rode Austin & Rock, he was a bigger star than the guy who rode Hogan & the NWO to the only big run of his life. It is what it is.

 

[LiquidLarry2GhostWF]

It should also be noted that you really aren't aware of how books are sold and what goes into creating a book that sells many copies.

And, even if you look at wrestling books in general, there is no correlation between the power of the star and the units sold.

 

[LiquidLarry2GhostWF]

This is why I've said it before, and I'll say it again, using terms like "top guy" or "draw" is silly, because since the 70's...the United States has had how many legitimate "top guys"...Andre, Hogan, Flair, Austin, Rock, Cena...then you start getting into a ton of shades of grey.

You get guys with really short runs, runs with mixed bags, guys who were FOILs at the top, stop and star pushes, guys at the top during eras of bad or declining business (the ebb and flow of wrestling), guys with varying degrees of success, et al.

 

[s@ppisgod]

Earl Hebner wouldn't have a smash book, because say it with me...he isn't a big enough star.

But if even if he did, where is the rest of his resume? Foley has more meat to his argument than just his books. But the books certainly are an indicator of his overall star power, not sure how you don't see it that way. I think you are overthinking this.

I know he wouldn't, but if he did, hypothetically, would he be a wrestling draw? No, obviously not.

It's silly. I get the point you're trying to make, but selling books and movies shouldn't count as being a draw as a wrestler. Him being a star is inarguable. But yeah, I think WWE/Rock/Austin sold most of the tickets. The ratings in his segments were strong. But he was never THE draw at the top. And that goes for anyone in that era. I mean, if you wanna argue that any 15,000 seat sell-out during that era was 1/3rd or more to see Mick Foley, I'm not buying. 98 KOTR featured Foley going crash-test dummy in the co-main event. The next year did a better buyrate, and he wasn't even on the card. The machine kept going, and didn't miss a beat.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

We are getting into some strawman territory, here.

I never said Foley was ever THE top guy. I said he was a bigger star than Sting.

I think the success of his books are a clear indication of his level of stardom. But it looks like we aren't going to agree on that.

 

[s@ppisgod]

I'm not arguing that Foley is a bigger star than Austin or Rock. I'm arguing he's a bigger star than Sting.

And to some extent, yes, Foley, Triple H, Undertaker, they were all along for the ride but all contributed to the success to varying degrees. This is also drifting slightly from the debate, which is bigger star, Foley or Sting? The reasons don't even matter. Even if it is because he rode Austin & Rock, he was a bigger star than the guy who rode Hogan & the NWO to the only big run of his life. It is what it is.

Sting is being hurt from never working in the biggest wrestling company ever. Foley, for as great as he was, never reached anywhere near the heights he did in the WWF, in WCW and ECW. Sting didn't really ride the NWO. If anything helped him, it was the mystique they booked him with. The NWO had grown stagnant before that, and did so again after until Goldberg came through, when HE was the draw. The NWO during that time were great heels, but the fans didn't so much come to see them get their asses beat as much as they were rabidly behind Sting and Goldberg and would pay to see them drop anybody, regardless of NWO affiliation or not.

 

[s@ppisgod]

We are getting into some strawman territory, here.

I never said Foley was ever THE top guy. I said he was a bigger star than Sting.

I think the success of his books are a clear indication of his level of stardom. But it looks like we aren't going to agree on that.

I think it's tough to combine the two. I think people being interested in Foley as being an entertaining guy and funny. I feel the same way about Jericho. His book is fantastic and sold very well. But is he a bigger star in wrestling because of it or is it's success an indication of higher popularity? Not in my opinion.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

Sting is being hurt from never working in the biggest wrestling company ever.

100% agree. However, I can't deal in hypotheticals. Perhaps Sting would have been one of those cogs in the Attitude Era had he jumped. I don't know. All that I know, is what actually occurred.

Foley, for as great as he was, never reached anywhere near the heights he did in the WWF, in WCW and ECW.

Foley reached main event status in WCW. Same for ECW, but that was so small scale in the context of this conversation that it doesn't matter.

Again, like the Sting in WWE thing, I don't know if Foley would have been the same level of star in WCW. But honestly, in this debate, it really doesn't matter to me. I can only base my opinion on what actually did happen.

Sting didn't really ride the NWO. If anything helped him, it was the mystique they booked him with. The NWO had grown stagnant before that, and did so again after until Goldberg came through, when HE was the draw. The NWO during that time were great heels, but the fans didn't so much come to see them get their asses beat as much as they were rabidly behind Sting and Goldberg and would pay to see them drop anybody, regardless of NWO affiliation or not.

Hall, Nash, and the formation of the NWO is what really pulled WCW ahead. Yes, it eventually got stale. Goldberg was the driving force for a time, no question. Sting was a real difference maker in 1997, no question. Outside of 1997, I really don't think Sting mattered that much, if at all, in the big picture. He was a good guy to have around, but i'm not sure history changes if he magically disappears. Take away The Outsiders or Hogan, the war is very much different. That's why I say he rode the NWO as much as Foley rode Austin & Rock. It's all conjecture though. Point being, Foley was with the bigger company that ended up doing bigger numbers and put the other company out of business. And he certainly held up his end of that, when you look at the ratings he drew, cards he main evented, merch (don't want to use the "B" word), etc.

In short, I think Foley was an integral part of the bigger company that ended up being more successful and doing better numbers. And I think he was responsible for some of that. You guys don't, or at least to the degree that I think. I'm not sure where we go from here.

In what measurable way was Sting a bigger star?

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

I think it's tough to combine the two. I think people being interested in Foley as being an entertaining guy and funny. I feel the same way about Jericho. His book is fantastic and sold very well. But is he a bigger star in wrestling because of it or is it's success an indication of higher popularity? Not in my opinion.

I'm not saying Foley's books made him a bigger star. I'm saying the books did so well because he was a star. Same for Jericho.

Bob Holly's book is getting fantastic reviews, for its honesty and candor. PLus it has some good dirt from what I understand. He pulls no punches and comes off more likable than he did as a wrestler. It won't sell like Foley's or Jericho's or Hart's. He's not a star, they are.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

The highest rated segment in wrestling history was Mick Foley & The Rock, "This is your life". Foley's title win, and Foley in McMahon's hospital room where he debuted Mr. Socko are up there, too. Also the Super Bowl halftime Leftwich mentioned. Why do you think they picked Foley? Because he was "just a guy" along for the ride? No, he was hot and a big star.

The Rock segment did an 8.4. You can give all of the credit to The Rock, but that's not fair. The Rock was in many segments with Austin, McMahon, Triple H, Big Show, you name it. None touched that 8.4 with Foley. You guys are fooling yourselves if you don't think Foley was a big, big star.

During that era, and to this day, Foley gets non wrestling gigs, endorsements, etc that Sting can't sniff. And it's all as a result of his wrestling stardom. Sting was never able to parlay his wrestling stardom into anything mainstream. Thunder in Paradise, thanks to Hogan. You guys don't want to count that stuff, but all that means is you are missing the big picture. Foley sells books and gets mainstream gigs because he was a big time wrestling star. Cause, effect.