Is Ladanian Tomlinson a HOFer

[BigBucs]

Fixed.

Matt Forte

 

[dell71]

Without question yes.

Reminds me of a BIG debate a friend of mine and I had a many years ago...Is Shaun Alexander a Hall of Famer. He was emphatically saying he was...I said "no chance in hell"...

thoughts on that...?

I say no, but it's a debate much more worthy of a thread than LT's HOF chances.

 

[Senser81]

I say no, but it's a debate much more worthy of a thread than LT's HOF chances.

Yes, and because of all the Seahawk homers on this board, the conclusion would be that Shaun Alexander is a first ballot HOFer.

 

[Senser81]

Without question yes.

Reminds me of a BIG debate a friend of mine and I had a many years ago...Is Shaun Alexander a Hall of Famer. He was emphatically saying he was...I said "no chance in hell"...

thoughts on that...?

Shaun Alexander is the worst "good" NFL player I have ever seen. I guess he was durable for a time, but he wasn't impressive at all. He did have 5 really good seasons, but I never thought that he was a power back. He kind of ran like a chump. For all his statistical greatness, he has only 1 All pro selection and 3 pro bowl selections (although he was robbed a couple years). I think if Alexander gets into the HOF, that would open the door for RBs like Clinton Portis and Edgerrin James. Stranger things have happened in regards to the HOF, though (Floyd Little?).

 

[jms493]

Tiki Barber > Shaun Alexander

 

[KINGOFOOTBALL]

I was never a Tomlinson fan. The answer is an obvious yes. He's far more qualified than friggin Curtis Martin.
However..
His biggest accomplishments dont mean much in the face of Alexander breaking the TD record and Jamal Lewis eclipsing 2000 yards. Tomlinson was never head and shoulders above his peers.
His playoff performances were comical. Always pouting , drops or fumbles in situations , always injured . Massively unreliable in the playoffs with a top level team. Id rather have bitch Alexander at RB with the season on the line.

At the end of the day is anyone sharing stories of a Tomlinson performance ? Memories of an incredible run ? Any tales of greatness ?

Ive seen more out of AD and CJ in that regard than I ever did with Tomlinson.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

I was never a Tomlinson fan. The answer is an obvious yes. He's far more qualified than friggin Curtis Martin.
However..
His biggest accomplishments dont mean much in the face of Alexander breaking the TD record and Jamal Lewis eclipsing 2000 yards. Tomlinson was never head and shoulders above his peers.
His playoff performances were comical. Always pouting , drops or fumbles in situations , always injured . Massively unreliable in the playoffs with a top level team. Id rather have bitch Alexander at RB with the season on the line.

At the end of the day is anyone sharing stories of a Tomlinson performance ? Memories of an incredible run ? Any tales of greatness ?

I disagree with the bold.

To me, Tomlinson was easily the best RB in the game from the point Faulk declined, until the year before he came to the Jets. Nobody came close to being the multi dimensional threat that LT was during his era. Besides being the best and most consistent runner, he caught 50 balls something like 8 straight seasons, including one 100 catch year. And these were not Larry Centers dump offs. He also threw 7 TD passes.

I've always preferred RB's who were athletic and versatile over guys who run in a straight line through gaping holes, and bull for yardage. I'll take Tomlinson over Alexander or Lewis with zero hesitation.

 

[KINGOFOOTBALL]

I disagree with the bold.

To me, Tomlinson was easily the best RB in the game from the point Faulk declined, until the year before he came to the Jets. Nobody came close to being the multi dimensional threat that LT was during his era. Besides being the best and most consistent runner, he caught 50 balls something like 8 straight seasons, including one 100 catch year. And these were not Larry Centers dump offs. He also threw 7 TD passes.

I've always preferred RB's who were athletic and versatile over guys who run in a straight line through gaping holes, and bull for yardage. I'll take Tomlinson over Alexander or Lewis with zero hesitation.

Meh Steven Jackson has 90 with more yardage a few years later. Edge James was more impressive in the pass game before he got hurt.

Guys like Larry Johnson , Alexander were popping off 1800 yard seasons as well. Ill give you consistent...Ill give you best over a period of time. But year by year there was never a "Tomlinson" and everyone else feel to him(maybe 06). I always thought there was a another RB having there own career year.
His playoff flops and inability to help his team in numerous close games soured me on him. There were games and moments where Norv Turner simply didnt trust LT. That always bothered me.

 

[dell71]

Meh Steven Jackson has 90 with more yardage a few years later. Edge James was more impressive in the pass game before he got hurt.

Guys like Larry Johnson , Alexander were popping off 1800 yard seasons as well. Ill give you consistent...Ill give you best over a period of time. But year by year there was never a "Tomlinson" and everyone else feel to him(maybe 06). I always thought there was a another RB having there own career year.
His playoff flops and inability to help his team in numerous close games soured me on him. There were games and moments where Norv Turner simply didnt trust LT. That always bothered me.

Have to agree with WTB. LT was clearly the best back in the league for a long time. True, there was always some other guy having a career year, but he was that guy every year while those others either broke down or faded away. Not to mention you conveniently forget that it's LT who holds the record for most rushing TD (28) and most overall TD (31) in a season. As far as his playoffs goes, it's already been noted his performance isn't much different than Payton. It's actually better than Barry Sanders, btw. In 6 post-season games Barry broke 70 yards just once and even had a game in which he finished with -1 rushing yards. For RBs, post-season is not that big an issue. If anything, success in the playoffs helps but not having success doesn't seem to hurt. It's only QBs who get judged harshly on their playoff performances with regard to the HOF.

 

[KINGOFOOTBALL]

Have to agree with WTB. LT was clearly the best back in the league for a long time. True, there was always some other guy having a career year, but he was that guy every year while those others either broke down or faded away. Not to mention you conveniently forget that it's LT who holds the record for most rushing TD (28) and most overall TD (31) in a season. As far as his playoffs goes, it's already been noted his performance isn't much different than Payton. It's actually better than Barry Sanders, btw. In 6 post-season games Barry broke 70 yards just once and even had a game in which he finished with -1 rushing yards. For RBs, post-season is not that big an issue. If anything, success in the playoffs helps but not having success doesn't seem to hurt. It's only QBs who get judged harshly on their playoff performances with regard to the HOF.

I mentioned 06. The TD record which was broken what 1 or 2 years before by pansy back Alexander?

As for playoffs. Im not going to exempt him from the "talent" argument people use. He almost always went in with the better team , he had the second or third best oline in the league and best blocking back in the league. He was the focal point of the offense and team sputtered from his failures. His failures arent ok because others failed too.

The point isnt his longevity which is incredible for a RB. Just that his "best" wasnt all that great compared to his contemporaries. In any given game during his career would you have lost anything putting in James ,Martin , Holmes , Lewis , Pedersen , Alexander ? Thats ALOT of guys that were on the same level for many years.


You take Payton or Sanders and replace them with Mark Van Eeghen and Barry Foster youre going to see wild dropoffs.
His numbers are WAY better than Martin because he actually had records and an MVP award. But performance wise , skill set they're indistinguishable and character/heart Id give to Martin.

Hes a HOFer but not as great as people think or numbers may lead you to believe.

 

[ram29jackson]

I mentioned 06. The TD record which was broken what 1 or 2 years before by pansy back Alexander?

As for playoffs. Im not going to exempt him from the "talent" argument people use. He almost always went in with the better team , he had the second or third best oline in the league and best blocking back in the league. He was the focal point of the offense and team sputtered from his failures. His failures arent ok because others failed too.

The point isnt his longevity which is incredible for a RB. Just that his "best" wasnt all that great compared to his contemporaries. In any given game during his career would you have lost anything putting in James ,Martin , Holmes , Lewis , Pedersen , Alexander ? Thats ALOT of guys that were on the same level for many years.


You take Payton or Sanders and replace them with Mark Van Eeghen and Barry Foster youre going to see wild dropoffs.
His numbers are WAY better than Martin because he actually had records and an MVP award. But performance wise , skill set they're indistinguishable and character/heart Id give to Martin.

Hes a HOFer but not as great as people think or numbers may lead you to believe.

which is why it may year 2 or 3 after he is eligible that he gets in...they say that one of the last questions asked for HOF voting is to the effect of " can you say NFL without saying (name here ) ?"

 

[Hasselbeck]

Shaun Alexander is the worst "good" NFL player I have ever seen. I guess he was durable for a time, but he wasn't impressive at all. He did have 5 really good seasons, but I never thought that he was a power back. He kind of ran like a chump. For all his statistical greatness, he has only 1 All pro selection and 3 pro bowl selections (although he was robbed a couple years). I think if Alexander gets into the HOF, that would open the door for RBs like Clinton Portis and Edgerrin James. Stranger things have happened in regards to the HOF, though (Floyd Little?).

I loved Shaun Alexander and even I don't think he is a HOF.

After his MVP year, the wheels came off (thanks Madden cover) .. his numbers may have been inflated due to the fact he played behind the best offensive line in the league for several years.. but the dude had a special eye for the goal line. Had he kept it going another 2-3 years he would have had a very strong case for the HOF. But yeah.. he's not a HOF player.

Tomlinson on the other hand, definitely is.

 

[dell71]

I mentioned 06. The TD record which was broken what 1 or 2 years before by pansy back Alexander?

As for playoffs. Im not going to exempt him from the "talent" argument people use. He almost always went in with the better team , he had the second or third best oline in the league and best blocking back in the league. He was the focal point of the offense and team sputtered from his failures. His failures arent ok because others failed too.

The point isnt his longevity which is incredible for a RB. Just that his "best" wasnt all that great compared to his contemporaries. In any given game during his career would you have lost anything putting in James ,Martin , Holmes , Lewis , Pedersen , Alexander ? Thats ALOT of guys that were on the same level for many years.


You take Payton or Sanders and replace them with Mark Van Eeghen and Barry Foster youre going to see wild dropoffs.
His numbers are WAY better than Martin because he actually had records and an MVP award. But performance wise , skill set they're indistinguishable and character/heart Id give to Martin.

Hes a HOFer but not as great as people think or numbers may lead you to believe.

I take "best over a period of time" to be a better measure than going season by season and seeing who was better than him that year. That's an almost impossible standard. I hate to go back to Walter Payton again, but here's a guy universally hailed as one of the top 3 players of all time at his position by most. He won only one rushing title and led the league in rushing TDs once. And he wasn't always finishing behind HOF caliber players, either.

Skill wise, what sets him apart from most of the guys you named is his receiving ability. He's one of the best receiving backs ever, especially for guys that also got the bulk of their team's carries. For this reason, I'd say there would be a huge dropoff if you tried to replace him with Lewis for instance. Speaking of Lewis, and Alexander I also don't understand how it's a slight to LT that they did the things they did. By that logic, if a "pansy" like Alexander broke the TD record that should reflect negatively on every back before him, shouldn't it?

Your Martin argument doesn't make sense, either. You say his numbers are way better and note that LT has "awards and an MVP" but somehow their performances are indistinguishable. I can distinguish them pretty easily. The reason he won "awards and an MVP" is that in only 2 more games than Martin (170 to 168) LT's accounted for roughly 1,000 yds from scrimmage and 50 TDs more than Martin. And Martin is in the HOF. If by indistiguishable you mean neither played for a SB winner then ok, you got me.

 

[KINGOFOOTBALL]

I take "best over a period of time" to be a better measure than going season by season and seeing who was better than him that year. That's an almost impossible standard. I hate to go back to Walter Payton again, but here's a guy universally hailed as one of the top 3 players of all time at his position by most. He won only one rushing title and led the league in rushing TDs once. And he wasn't always finishing behind HOF caliber players, either.

Skill wise, what sets him apart from most of the guys you named is his receiving ability. He's one of the best receiving backs ever, especially for guys that also got the bulk of their team's carries. For this reason, I'd say there would be a huge dropoff if you tried to replace him with Lewis for instance. Speaking of Lewis, and Alexander I also don't understand how it's a slight to LT that they did the things they did. By that logic, if a "pansy" like Alexander broke the TD record that should reflect negatively on every back before him, shouldn't it?

Your Martin argument doesn't make sense, either. You say his numbers are way better and note that LT has "awards and an MVP" but somehow their performances are indistinguishable. I can distinguish them pretty easily. The reason he won "awards and an MVP" is that in only 2 more games than Martin (170 to 168) LT's accounted for roughly 1,000 yds from scrimmage and 50 TDs more than Martin. And Martin is in the HOF. If by indistiguishable you mean neither played for a SB winner then ok, you got me.

Meh you always knew Payton was the best back in the league. Earl Campbells insane burst onto the scene was the only thing that kept him from winning what 5 straight rushing titles ?

Campbells run was legendary. Noone will give a hoot about Lewis 2000 or Alexanders 27 because every one knows a bunch of mediocre backs were running wild on empty defenses. QBs/WRs arent the only ones with inflated stats.

Performance =
Barrys murdering the bears on thanksgiving with a pair of humiliating home runs.
Paytons 275 yards in mud
Pederson 4th quarter mauling of Clevelands defense , or 250yard in a second half performance
OJ getting 190 on a shitty frozen field for 2000 yards in 14 games
Emmitt one arming a Giants team for 190+ yards and division title.
Sayers 6td game
Allens SB performance


You could throw a dart on any of these guys game reels and see they were dominant players and a cut above everyone else. I never felt that way with Tomlinson. Heck Alexander was having a 5TD performance , Lewis was setting single game record. Yes at the end of the year or career LTs numbers were better. But on any given day he was indistinguishable from "good" running backs like Martin. I thought Martin was every bit as an elusive a runner and adjusted to his loss of speed better than LT.

I wont deny a guy his numbers. So LT is easily HOF. But starting from scratch and other things being equal. I can take Martin or Tomlinson and I think our teams will be indistinguishable , and I dont think Martin is a HOFer.

And yes I realize at this point Im just being a "hater" =-).

 

[Senser81]

Meh you always knew Payton was the best back in the league. Earl Campbells insane burst onto the scene was the only thing that kept him from winning what 5 straight rushing titles ?

I apologize for going against one of the three MM/VSN Masons, but...

Payton was always a top RB, but other than 1977 he was never the best RB in the NFL. It went OJ Simpson, Earl Campbell, Eric Dickerson. Payton was always the #2 guy. But Payton's durability was a big part of his greatness. I think the same can be said for Tomlinson. He was very durable for a guy who wasn't very big and was more of a shifty/speed RB. I always viewed Tomlinson as the top RB in the NFL during his prime. For awhile Priest Holmes was a close second, but Holmes always had a much better O-line IMO. A guy like Larry Johnson might have a huge year, but Tomlinson had many big years.

I would also disagree with your comparison to Curtis Martin. Martin didn't have LT's breakaway ability. Martin was a very good player, but it would be like comparing Gerald Riggs to Marcus Allen.

 

[KINGOFOOTBALL]

I apologize for going against one of the three MM/VSN Masons, but...

Payton was always a top RB, but other than 1977 he was never the best RB in the NFL. It went OJ Simpson, Earl Campbell, Eric Dickerson. Payton was always the #2 guy. But Payton's durability was a big part of his greatness. I think the same can be said for Tomlinson. He was very durable for a guy who wasn't very big and was more of a shifty/speed RB. I always viewed Tomlinson as the top RB in the NFL during his prime. For awhile Priest Holmes was a close second, but Holmes always had a much better O-line IMO. A guy like Larry Johnson might have a huge year, but Tomlinson had many big years.

I would also disagree with your comparison to Curtis Martin. Martin didn't have LT's breakaway ability. Martin was a very good player, but it would be like comparing Gerald Riggs to Marcus Allen.

Apology accepted.
While I still think Payton being no.1 or 2 in rushing for 5-6 years amongst all timers you mentioned speak for itself I will concede that LT was a bigger breakaway threat over Martin.
I place high regard on mental toughness especially in the postseason and Tomlinsons shortcomings and his own Coaches doubts of him will always weigh heavy in my head. His stats are inflated considering the field day other backs were having. I dont think its been limited to WR/QB.

 

[Senser81]

Apology accepted.
While I still think Payton being no.1 or 2 in rushing for 5-6 years amongst all timers you mentioned speak for itself I will concede that LT was a bigger breakaway threat over Martin.
I place high regard on mental toughness especially in the postseason and Tomlinsons shortcomings and his own Coaches doubts of him will always weigh heavy in my head. His stats are inflated considering the field day other backs were having. I dont think its been limited to WR/QB.

I guess an interesting question would be to ask people where they would rate Tomlinson among the top10 RBs of all-time. I would agree that he was probably the worst "best" RB in the NFL in a long time. There was kind of a vaccuum after Jim Brown retired and before OJ Simpson became good, and guys like Gale Sayers, Leroy Kelly and Larry Csonka were probably the best RBs of their era, but they didn't have the longevity of Tomlinson.

If I were to make an all-time top 10 RB list, I don't know if Tomlinson would be on it, to be honest.

 

[FirstTimer]

I guess an interesting question would be to ask people where they would rate Tomlinson among the top10 RBs of all-time. I would agree that he was probably the worst "best" RB in the NFL in a long time. There was kind of a vaccuum after Jim Brown retired and before OJ Simpson became good, and guys like Gale Sayers, Leroy Kelly and Larry Csonka were probably the best RBs of their era, but they didn't have the longevity of Tomlinson.

If I were to make an all-time top 10 RB list, I don't know if Tomlinson would be on it, to be honest.

http://www.virtualsportsdaily.com/f...ks-of-All-Time&p=194022&viewfull=1#post194022

:smug:

:shifty:

 

[Senser81]

http://www.virtualsportsdaily.com/f...ks-of-All-Time&p=194022&viewfull=1#post194022

:smug:

:shifty:

That list of mine is a few years old. Here is an updated list:

1) Jim Brown
2) OJ Simpson
3) Walter Payton
4) Barry Sanders
5) Emmitt Smith
6) Earl Campbell
7) Eric Dickerson
8) Marshall Faulk
9) Matt Forte
10) Steve van Buren

Martin was a second tier runner almost his whole career. Very Art Monkish to me. Very consistent , very durable , very reliable. But his most impressive stat to me was winning the rushing title without breaking a run over 20 yards.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

This turned into a great thread.

I think we view a players reputation is at its lowest during those final years when he is playing out his decline. It's human nature. What we've seen most recently is fresh in our minds. Obviously Tomlinson is at that stage of his career. A few years ago, I think this thread was have far fewer 'negative' posts and we would be heaping universal praise on his greatness. I think when this thread pops up again in five years, when he's on the HOF ballot, nobody will be thinking about his Jet days, and he will be remembered (rightfully) as the best RB in the game during his 8 year peak (which is a pretty long peak for a RB historically).

I remember watching Tomlinson carve up some team about 5 years ago or whatever, looking up his numbers on the internet, and thinking to myself, 'Holy shit, this guy is going to crush Faulk's numbers. I knew he was good, but wow, this guy is an all time great, there is no denying it." But I see some of KOF's point. IN a single game or single drive or single play situation, do I want Tomlinson in my backfield, or Faulk? Tomlinson had great vision, a nose for the end zone, and could cut on a dime. Those were his great strengths to me. He ran for more yards and caught more passes and scored more TD's than Faulk. But on a third and two, with my life on the line, do I want LT or Faulk carrying the ball? Do I want LT or Faulk flaring out for a dump off against a LB? Do I want LT or Faulk staying home and protecting my QB?