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Jets Trade Revis To Bucs For 1st Rounder, 6y/$96m, No Guaranteed Money

CB's are expendable when you have great pass rushers... thats what you're leaving out. You're acting like you can throw any shitbum out there regardless of the rest of your personnel, you can't.

The only serviceable corner they have is Eric Wright and thats not saying much. Revis immediately makes them good enough to compete in there division for the playoffs.

And how do you KNOW that he absolutely won't see year 3...? You're assuming way too much. You're assuming his knee won't be ok, you're assuming the Bucs won't be willing to renegotiate if he plays well because the Jets wouldn't, you're assuming because he's gonna be 28 like 2 months before the season starts he's gonna start to decline... 28 Warner. When did we all agree that 28 was the age you started to decline. Thats absurd. 2015 will be his age 30 season. You're going off the deep end.
 
28 coming off a torn ACL. I'm not saying he will decline, i'm saying these things make it far more likely he that he won't be the same player. And for what they've given up to get him, he needs to be.

The fact they haven't guaranteed him any money would make me much more comfortable as a fan, because they can just wipe their hands of the guy if he's lost a step. But those are some premium picks that are never coming back.
 
Winning teams use high picks on QBs (unless they lucked into them/signed them/etc), OL, front seven D. You get outliers, but in general, that is the rule of thumb.

Corner used to be a high priority position, but in today's NFL...not really. I'd argue safety is more important.

Revis was an amazing player. Could still be. But they gave up a lot to get him.
 
Winning teams use high picks on QBs (unless they lucked into them/signed them/etc), OL, front seven D. You get outliers, but in general, that is the rule of thumb.

Corner used to be a high priority position, but in today's NFL...not really. I'd argue safety is more important.

Revis was an amazing player. Could still be. But they gave up a lot to get him.

Im convinced RBs and CBs are only selected in the first round out of habit. If it wasnt so rare to find a truly elite one even Center would be a higher priority than those two positions.
 
Im convinced RBs and CBs are only selected in the first round out of habit. If it wasnt so rare to find a truly elite one even Center would be a higher priority than those two positions.

Under the new rookie cap, I kinda feel sorry for runningbacks. If you're a late-rounder and have Arian Foster success, you're screwed. You give your team four years of premium production, then face a likely franchise tag in year 5, assuming you don't get injured ... then at 26 or 27 with 5 NFL seasons are considered too old as an NFL runningback and will never get a huge contract.
At least Russell Wilson, assuming he has four great seasons, can look forward to a lucrative long-term deal.

While I agree with the NFL rookie salary cap in principle, it should be like the NBA's ... 3 years.
 
Aso makes some really good points.

Revis is 28 and coming off a knee injury. He is the best cornerback in the game. If you're going to compare him to anyone, you compare him to Charles Woodson (36) and Champ Bailey (34). These guys didn't even start to decline in play until a couple years ago. I know, neither had the knee injury that Revis suffered but they both have dealt with serious injuries throughout their career and they've both been the best cornerbacks in the league for the last decade or so.

I also think you guys are overblowing this whole "offense is everything and teams should draft for offense first" attitude. Look at who was in the Super Bowl. The Niners and Ravens. Look at who they both beat to get there - Matt Ryan's Falcons and Tom Brady's Patriots. Quarterbacks and receivers aren't everything.

Look at the last 5 Super Bowl winners and how they ranked in PPG allowed:

2012 - Ravens (12th)
2011 - Giants (25th)
2010 - Packers (2nd)
2009 - Saints (20)
2008 - Steelers (1)

The Giants (25) turned it up in the playoffs and only allowed 14ppg and beat Brady's Patriots in the Super Bowl. The Saints (20th) were a bend but don't break D that became notorious for timely turnovers and getting pressure to the QB (bounty hunters). They got past a couple of the best offenses in the league that year in Favre's Vikings and Manning's Colts.

And the Steelers beat Kurt Warner and the Cardinals to get their SB win.
 
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Im convinced RBs and CBs are only selected in the first round out of habit. If it wasnt so rare to find a truly elite one even Center would be a higher priority than those two positions.

RE: Running back...

Teams overthink in the draft and when coaches get into it, common sense sometimes gets lost in the process. Coaches tend to have a ton of impact on the first round selection. They'll get involved in the draft process late and fall in love with a player based on what they think they can do with them.

The skill positions, mostly running backs, get elevated because of it, even though its completely unnecessary. Coaches see the player and dream up all types of ways to use the player...versatile receivers also get thrown into this category.

I can understand winning teams doing it, they see a player they can add that will add another element to the offense and team. Its unnecessary, but I understand. Bad teams? That is why bad teams continually stay bad. The idea of a foundation back is lost in today's NFL. I loved Trent Richardson last season, and loved Doug Martin more than anyone I read on the 'net, but when you can get Alfred Morris in the 5th or 6th Round and countless other backs with the ability to contribute, I just don't understand the need to pick'em high.

RE: Cornerback...

I just think personnel men haven't caught up with the idea that these players aren't that necessary in the first round. I do think 2-4, they provide amazing value though.
 
They declined way more than two years ago. Their reps kept people thinking they are elite. I don't deny either Woodson or Bailey are absolutely first ballot Hall of Famers, but neither has been anywhere near Pro Bowl level for at least 5 years.

Last 5 years? You're memory is starting to fade. They were both still elite 2-3 years ago. Woodson was named the DPOY in 2009 when he played cornerback.

I am seriously starting to worry about you, Dave. You are the only person who is getting worse around here every single year. I don't usually groan people but you just pull a bunch of bullshit out of your ass and expect people to believe it when it is so easy to prove you wrong.

From Wiki:

He had more interceptions in his first four years with the Packers (28) than he did in his previous eight with the Raiders (17). He also has more touchdowns (8 vs 2) and sacks (6 vs 5.5) with the Packers than during his time in Oakland. Woodson's stats have improved in every defensive category since joining the Packers.

Yeah, he really started to decline after year 8.

For Bailey:

In 2009, Bailey did not allow a touchdown in 80 passes thrown his way that year, played in 98% of the snaps and remained one of the best-tackling cornerbacks in the game.[9]
 
OK, I buy my numbers are a bit fuzzy Tailback U ... but this idea that Woodson or Bailey have been elite for quite some time is ridiculous. Woodson was moved to safety and Bailey should have been. I love both guys ... great players and first balllot HOFers, but neither is even close to elite now and shouldn't be brought into this thread. As an Eagles' fan, this thread scares me. Nnamdi Asoughma - alleged shutdown corner near his prime - looked like a journeyman for the Eagles.

Are you fucking retarded? I said they were both elite until 2-3 years ago. And then showed you that they played at an elite level in 2009, which is just 3 years ago.

I am comparing Revis to them because they didn't start to decline until 32-33. Revis is 28. He will be an elite cornerback for the next 3-5 years.

If you disagree that is fine. But don't sit there and try to tell me that Woodson and Bailey haven't been good for 5 years when they were obviously still among the best corners in the NFL until they turned 32. That is the point.

The concerns about his knee are legit because you never know how those things will pan out but I think Revis is the type of athlete that bounces back from this. He has that type of attitude and work ethic. Personally, I think he is a headcase and I don't even like the guy but I know what he is capable of doing and I don't doubt him for a single second.

If other players have come back from reconstructed knees and performed at an elite level, I believe Revis can as well.
 
I have no issue with Revis still being elite. I honestly believe he's still the NFL's best CB. That said, Asoughma was the #2 when the Eagles signed him and became pretty much pathetic after.
No guarantees with Revis.
 
Aso makes some really good points.

Revis is 28 and coming off a knee injury. He is the best cornerback in the game. If you're going to compare him to anyone, you compare him to Charles Woodson (36) and Champ Bailey (34). These guys didn't even start to decline in play until a couple years ago. I know, neither had the knee injury that Revis suffered but they both have dealt with serious injuries throughout their career and they've both been the best cornerbacks in the league for the last decade or so.

I also think you guys are overblowing this whole "offense is everything and teams should draft for offense first" attitude. Look at who was in the Super Bowl. The Niners and Ravens. Look at who they both beat to get there - Matt Ryan's Falcons and Tom Brady's Patriots. Quarterbacks and receivers aren't everything.

Look at the last 5 Super Bowl winners and how they ranked in PPG allowed:

2012 - Ravens (12th)
2011 - Giants (25th)
2010 - Packers (2nd)
2009 - Saints (20)
2008 - Steelers (1)

The Giants (25) turned it up in the playoffs and only allowed 14ppg and beat Brady's Patriots in the Super Bowl. The Saints (20th) were a bend but don't break D that became notorious for timely turnovers and getting pressure to the QB (bounty hunters). They got past a couple of the best offenses in the league that year in Favre's Vikings and Manning's Colts.

And the Steelers beat Kurt Warner and the Cardinals to get their SB win.

Youre looking at it wrong IMO.
Only the Packers had an elite CB. The rest had lopsided talent in there front 7 compared to secondary play.Same goes for the Niners.

None of those teams 'cept NO did it without an elite QB/Wr/Pass rusher.
What good has Revis done for the Jets?
If you're going to argue he's been elite every year then again you're saying CB impact is minimal. The Jets success on D has been predicated on the front 7 not the secondary.

I'd love to see dominant runners and shutdown CBs in this league. But you won't ride a hot CB tandem or dominant runner to the SB today. Riding a hot pass rush and a hot passing game is a yearly occurrence and something you can't do without. You can't avoid getting passed on. You can't avoid a dominant pass rush... An OC/QB can easily avoid a CB all day.
 
Aso makes some really good points.

Revis is 28 and coming off a knee injury. He is the best cornerback in the game. If you're going to compare him to anyone, you compare him to Charles Woodson (36) and Champ Bailey (34). These guys didn't even start to decline in play until a couple years ago. I know, neither had the knee injury that Revis suffered but they both have dealt with serious injuries throughout their career and they've both been the best cornerbacks in the league for the last decade or so.

I also think you guys are overblowing this whole "offense is everything and teams should draft for offense first" attitude. Look at who was in the Super Bowl. The Niners and Ravens. Look at who they both beat to get there - Matt Ryan's Falcons and Tom Brady's Patriots. Quarterbacks and receivers aren't everything.

Look at the last 5 Super Bowl winners and how they ranked in PPG allowed:

2012 - Ravens (12th)
2011 - Giants (25th)
2010 - Packers (2nd)
2009 - Saints (20)
2008 - Steelers (1)

We haven't been arguing that you don't need a defense to win a championship. If anything you've just proven my point even more as in CBs aren't a necessity. Look at these CB tandems for each of these superbowls (I've already posted a page or so back). They all won with mediocre CB's with the exception of the Packers. What do they all have in common though in terms of defense? A pass rush. Steelers were able to get to the QBs, Giants did it back in 07 with Strahan and company, Saints murdered Favre in the NFC championship and made Peyton look mortal in the Superbowl. Packers in 09 were also a force on the pass rush, Clay Matthews had his best season. In 2011 Giants were the basically same thing but with JPP, and the offense took more charge. Ravens as well. All of these teams were able to pressure the QB and allowed their mediocre and cheap CB's to look good enough to win them superbowls. The 49ers had the best CB duo in the game, hell they had the best defense. But they could not match the Ravens offense, who's defense had two mediocre at best CB's in the superbowl, but they were able to pressure the QB. The game would have been alot less closer too imo if it hadn't of been for that long stoppage either.
 
2012 - Ravens (12th)
2011 - Giants (25th)
2010 - Packers (2nd)
2009 - Saints (20)
2008 - Steelers (1)

How can all of you say these teams all have mediocre CB's except for the Packers. Maybe the Packers have the only elite tandem but all of those other teams had some good players at CB.

Corey Webster was no slouch in 2011 and the Saints tandem of Greer and Porter were a very good one and that team did not have any elite pass rushers. They blitzed a lot and had their CB's one on one a lot of the time with a single high safety. Gregg Williams was their fucking defensive coordinator. And Ike Taylor definitely had moments of greatness.

Revisionist history at it's finest.
 
Youre looking at it wrong IMO.
Only the Packers had an elite CB. The rest had lopsided talent in there front 7 compared to secondary play.Same goes for the Niners.

None of those teams 'cept NO did it without an elite QB/Wr/Pass rusher.
What good has Revis done for the Jets?
If you're going to argue he's been elite every year then again you're saying CB impact is minimal. The Jets success on D has been predicated on the front 7 not the secondary.

I'd love to see dominant runners and shutdown CBs in this league. But you won't ride a hot CB tandem or dominant runner to the SB today. Riding a hot pass rush and a hot passing game is a yearly occurrence and something you can't do without. You can't avoid getting passed on. You can't avoid a dominant pass rush... An OC/QB can easily avoid a CB all day.

That was never my argument. If you look back to page 2 you'll see a post where I said the Bucs have added a few really good players and upgraded but they are still a few good players away from being an elite D.

I even said they need an elite pass rusher.

If I had to play devil's advocate, I'd say that it is harder to find a true elite shutdown corner than it is to find an elite pass rusher.

Name the top 10 elite pass rushers in the league.

Now name the top 10 elite corners in the league. Can you even? And I know what you're going to say, but Revis is definitely one of them, so that argument doesn't work.

That's the other side of the argument. Is it easier to find a true elite shut down corner or an elite pass rusher? Obviously, pass rushers help corners, but Revis has established himself as one of the top cornerbacks in the game.

Cameron Wake had 15 sacks last season, 4th best in the league, how good was the Dolphins secondary and defense?

Charles Johnson was 6th best in the league and played for one of the worst pass defenses in the league.

Jared Allen was 8th in sacks for the Vikings and their D was average at best as well.

Elite pass rushers playing for below average teams and defenses. Same argument you are making for Revis on the Jets.

You can make an argument either way, and I do think the Bucs need a pass rusher, all I'm saying is the Bucs got the best cornerback in the league and he will make their defense a lot better. That's all.
 
We haven't been arguing that you don't need a defense to win a championship. If anything you've just proven my point even more as in CBs aren't a necessity. Look at these CB tandems for each of these superbowls (I've already posted a page or so back). They all won with mediocre CB's with the exception of the Packers. What do they all have in common though in terms of defense? A pass rush. Steelers were able to get to the QBs, Giants did it back in 07 with Strahan and company, Saints murdered Favre in the NFC championship and made Peyton look mortal in the Superbowl. Packers in 09 were also a force on the pass rush, Clay Matthews had his best season. In 2011 Giants were the basically same thing but with JPP, and the offense took more charge. Ravens as well. All of these teams were able to pressure the QB and allowed their mediocre and cheap CB's to look good enough to win them superbowls. The 49ers had the best CB duo in the game, hell they had the best defense. But they could not match the Ravens offense, who's defense had two mediocre at best CB's in the superbowl, but they were able to pressure the QB. The game would have been alot less closer too imo if it hadn't of been for that long stoppage either.

You see that little button on the right side of your keyboard that says "enter" or "return"? Please use it.
 
You see that little button on the right side of your keyboard that says "enter" or "return"? Please use it.

The typical VSN comeback when they have nothing to muster up to comeback with actual facts. You wanna know why it's harder to find an elite corner over an elite pass rusher? Want in on the secret that's been hiding in plain fucking site in various posts in this thread? Ready for it dipshit? Scroll down below for the answer.....














Drum roll for this moron please!

























Because elite cornerbacks that can actually change the course of their team no longer exist due to the rule changes you fucking moron, why don't you actually take a moment to thoroughly read some of these posts by W2Bs, KOF, myself, etc. and maybe, just maybe you'll finally understand what we are trying to tell you. If you can't, well then I advise you stick to the the fitness forum or sports gaming because you clearly get your football knowledge from the latest madden games that come out.
 
The typical VSN comeback when they have nothing to muster up to comeback with actual facts. You wanna know why it's harder to find an elite corner over an elite pass rusher? Want in on the secret that's been hiding in plain fucking site in various posts in this thread? Ready for it dipshit? Scroll down below for the answer.....

Drum roll for this moron please!

Because elite cornerbacks that can actually change the course of their team no longer exist due to the rule changes you fucking moron, why don't you actually take a moment to thoroughly read some of these posts by W2Bs, KOF, myself, etc. and maybe, just maybe you'll finally understand what we are trying to tell you. If you can't, well then I advise you stick to the the fitness forum or sports gaming because you clearly get your football knowledge from the latest madden games that come out.

lol all that because I just wanted you to use paragraphs to make it easier to read. You sound like ram29jackson.

I didn't respond to your post because I already responded to people smarter than you, i.e. KOF and W2B.

There's no 1 player in this league that can single handedly change the course of their team on defense, so your entire post is retarded, and that wasn't my point anyway. But thanks for all of that.
 
How is anyone ignoring facts when I've told you that Revis IS a true shutdown corner. They are rare but they do still exist and they are extremely valuable. You just decide to ignore this post after post.
 
How is anyone ignoring facts when I've told you that Revis IS a true shutdown corner. They are rare but they do still exist and they are extremely valuable. You just decide to ignore this post after post.

But he can't single handedly change the entire course of a team!!!

What's funny is that he has an enormous impact on offenses but people downplay his affect by saying "Well teams can just avoid his side of the field or throwing to their number 1 WR."

Uh what. So he doesn't make a significant impact or affect offenses but he takes away a 3rd of the field and the teams most dangerous receiving threat. Got it.
 
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