John Cena: First ballot Wrestling Observer HOF'er

[Warner2BruceTD]

Cena makes it on the first try. Lesnar & Jeff Hardy didn't come close. Capt.Lou Albano finally made it. Dr. Wagner Sr missed by ONE vote.

More later when I get home.

 

[JimLeavy59]

:facepalm:

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

Hardy got less than 10%. Will be dropped from the ballot. Ouch.

For the record I dont think Hardy is a HOF'er but I thought he'd do much better.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

Gus Sonnenberg, Dr Alfonso Morales, Hans Schmidt, Mick McManus also made it.

So two old timers, a brit, an announcer, a manager, and Cena. Odd class.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

Votes needed for induction into the Hall of Fame: U.S. and Canada modern (154); U.S. and Canada historical (111); Japan (59); Mexico (47); Pacific Islands, Australia, New Zealand, Puerto Rico (63); Europe (70).

PERFORMER	VOTES	PCT	2011
MICK MCMANUS	91	78%	56%
ALFONSO MORALES	57	74%	27%
JOHN CENA	183	71%	----
HANS SCHMIDT	132	71%	58%
LOU ALBANO	179	70%	56%
Dr. Wagner Sr.	46	59.7%	----
Jesse Ventura	152	59%	52%
Kensuke Sasaki	58	59%	45%
Carlos Colon	61	59%	55%
Enrique Torres	107	58%	49%
Ivan Koloff	137	54%	48%
GeneOleAnderson	99	54%	51%
L.A. Park	41	53%	34%
Bill Apter	134	52%	28%
RockRollExpress	125	49%	52%
Villano III	38	49%	47%
Red Bastien	89	48%	38%
Mark Lewin	50	48%	37%
The Assassins	85	46%	59.6%
Jackie Pallo	53	46%	37%
Dick Murdoch	116	45%	42%
Mike&Ben Sharpe	44	45%	----
Karloff Lagarde	35	45%	35%
Gary Hart	113	44%	44%
Mark Rocco	50	43%	44%
Volk Han	41	42%	47%
Cien Caras	32	42%	31%
Domenic DeNucci	44	42%	----
Jerry Jarrett	104	41%	35%
Kiyoshi Tamura	39	40%	22%
Huracan Ramirez	31	40%	27%
Johnny Saint	46	40%	39%
Hiro.Tanahashi	38	39%	----
GeorgeGordienko	38	39%	33%
Sting    	98	38%	43%
Atlantis	29	38%	49%
Edge          	95	37%	46%
Gorilla Monsoon	95	37%	43%
Killer Karl Kox	38	37%	----
Dr. Wagner Jr.	26	34%	42%
Seiji Sakaguchi	32	33%	27%
Fabulous Moolah	83	32%	45%
Tim Woods	59	32%	35%
Don Owen	80	31%	35%
Blue Panther	23	30%	40%
Gran Hamada	28	29%	24%
Masahiko Kimura	27	28%	----
Mario Milano	29	28%	----
Jimmy Snuka	67	26%	32%
Kinji Shibuya	49	26%	27%
John Tolos	49	26%	36%
Jim CrockettJr.	65	25%	43%
Wilbur Snyder	47	25%	38%
June Byers	46	25%	----
Johnny Barend	46	25%	----
Brock Lesnar	62	24%	----
Sgt. Slaughter	62	24%	26%
Pepper Gomez	44	24%	26%
Big Daddy	27	23%	44%
Curt Hennig	56	22%	29%
Vampiro      	17	22%	10%
Pedro Morales	50	20%	34%
Dick Hutton	35	19%	28%
Spyros Arion	20	19%	22%
Mr.Wrestling II	41	16%	16%
Owen Hart	38	15%	20%
Jim Breaks	17	15%	----
Batista       	23	13%	17%
Von Brauners	22	12%	17%
Horst Hoffman	14	12%	14%
Billy Joyce	13	11%	----
Kendo Nagasaki	12	10%	13%

Less than 10% of the votes from the region and dropped from next year’s balloting: Chief Jay Strongbow, Jeff Hardy, Kane, Buddy Rose, Perro Aguayo Jr., Marty Jones

ADDED TO THE BALLOT NEXT YEAR: Bob Armstrong, Dave Brown, Jim Crockett Sr., Jimmy Hart, Takashi Matsunaga, Yuji Nagata, Ken Patera, Stanley Weston

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

Kensuke Sasaki missed by one fucking vote. Same for Dr. Wagner Sr.

Jesse Ventura & Carlos Colon missed by two.

Who I would have voted for (I don't know a lot about some of the pre-1970's historical figures):

John Cena
Kensuke Sasaki
Carlos Colon
Bill Apter
Rock & Roll Express
Jerry Jarrett
Hiroshi Tanahashi
Fabulous Moolah
Don Owen
Pedro Morales

On the fence:

Jesse Ventura
LA Park
Sting
Edge
Gorilla Monsoon
Blue Panther
Jimmy Snuka
Sgt Slaughter
Vampiro
Curt Hennig
Batista

 

[LiquidLarry2GhostWF]

How is Dr. Wagner not in the Hall of Fame already.

And, how can you be on the fence for Sting?

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

How is Dr. Wagner not in the Hall of Fame already.

And, how can you be on the fence for Sting?

Dr. Wagner missed by one vote, he's getting in.

What side of the fence do you think I should be on with Sting? Honestly I lean slightly to 'yes', but the no arguments i've read over the years are pretty strong.

 

[LiquidLarry2GhostWF]

Sting should be an obvious yes.

Copy-paste one of these "pretty strong" arguments for no, because it seems rather ridiculous.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

Sting is always the most divisive person on the ballot. Everybody under 40 wants him in, everybody over 40 thinks he isn't even close.

The thing with Sting, is his perceived popularity never matched his actual popularity. He was a great draw for one year (and really only one show). The dirty secret is WCW used to pay the Apter mags to give him awards and put him on the cover, plus Apter was mark for him anyway (like Sabu, Kerry Von Erich, Lex Luger, etc). He has been booked on top for 20+ years, which is admirable and you don't get booked on top for that long if you aren't somewhat popular, but he has almost always been a subpar draw, and almost never a hall of fame draw.

As a worker, many feel he was the shits. I disagree. I think he was underrated, and actually pretty good, but I don't think anybody thinks he's hall of fame level inside the ring. So he's not getting in based on his body of work.

The pluses: being on top for 20+ years, popped one really big buyrate, moved the needle in a small way for TNA early on, iconic figure of his era.

The negatives: never a big hall of fame level draw beyond one year/buyrate, average worker, never on top in the #1 promotion at any given time, never a house show draw, never a huge TV draw.

Now for some copy & paste action that you asked for. When somebody brought up that Sting's big year should be enough to get him in, Big Dave had this to say:

He never wrestled that year except once. Nitro did ratings with Sting and without him. Even with his big push, he was never the biggest ratings mover on the show at any point. He was usually about No. 3-6 during his good year. He did one great buy rate. Should Trump go in since he drew twice the buys for his biggest show and conclusively moved TV ratings far more every time he was out?

Toyonobori had two years as the top guy of a national company and years before that as No. 2. At one point one of his matches was in the top 25 most watched television shows in the history of Japan (I think a match with Blassie or Destroyer, but it was right at a 50 rating). Nobody considers him.

A career with a one year build to a very successful singular PPV show as its calling card isn't strong enough. Batista had a five month build and his PPV with HHH did better numbers and he actually wrestled that year and headlined a number of shows that did very well. Larry Z isn't in the Hall of Fame for the Bruno feud. JYD isn't in the Hall of Fame for the Michael Hayes feud. Bearcat Wright isn't in for the Rogers feud. Pepper Gomez isn't in for the Stevens feud. Tolos isn't in for the Blassie feud.

When somebody brought up that plenty of lesser draws have gotten in, here was the response:

Given that Benoit, Saito, Hase & Ultimo Dragon are all in for working ability, and all were world's better than Sting, they aren't good comparison points.

You have to compare him to guys who aren't nearly Hall of Fame workers who are in based on drawing power alone, and show he's a better draw then those already in.

Somebody compared Sting to Cena as far as popularity, which is laughable, but hey, here's the response anyway:

Cena carried a company for real as opposed to headlined 3 out of every 12 PPVs and peole in their memories think he was the top guy, and granted, PPV sucks now, it's still successful. Attendance for Cena blows Sting away to the point not even comparable.

Sting on the merch. Not true at all. I saw Sting's merch numbers in the 90s and they were nothing. Now comes the WCW didn't know how to merchandise their guys response, which is true, but Sting didn't sell much merch. I'd bet Cena outsells him 20-to-1 if not more. Cena makes half million dollar royalty checks and Sting made thousand dollar royalty checks. The big joke in WCW was how they pushed "Little Stingers" and that "Little Stingers" actually didn't exist.

Again, just look up the August 5, 2009 issue when it comes to drawing power. It's pretty well laid out year-by-year

People were still harping on Ultimo Dragon being in, which to me is mental because forget that he was a great worker, he also started up Toryumon and had a hand in training literally dozens and dozens of stars in Japan, and the influence of Toryumon led to the creation of Dragon Gate and changed much of what is happening in Mexico as far as ring work, so Dragon's influence alone, disregarding anything he ever did in the ring, makes him a lock in my eyes. But anyway, that led to this post by Big Dave, which if this doesn't at least make you doubt Sting's candidacy, nothing will. And that's fine, because I can accept arguments that say he should be in, but here is the post:

When Dragon was in WCW before he injured his elbow (and he was never a great worker after that), I remember people in that company saying he was the best worker in the entire business. That was in a company with Benoit, Malenko, Rey and Guerrero. I remember a Dragon vs. Malenko program in particular when guys in WCW were saying it was the best match in the country and Dragon was better than Malenko in those matches. Again, those within the business in Japan felt he was influential there as well.

Hase was the co-booker during what was the most successful period arguably of any wrestling company in history up to that point in time, at least when it came to profit margin it was. New Japan drew more people and averaged bigger gates when Hase was booking than WWF did in the Hogan boom period. It was later surpassed by WWF post 1998 but it's still the best period for Japan. They did a profit sharing plan and at the end of the year, the mid-card guys were getting incredible checks for their share. He was also the guy who moved Muto to All Japan, and while some in the U.S. decry that, the fact is Motoko Baba was going to fold the company, and while All Japan is no great shakes, it has lasted nine more years. Hase was evidently a great worker given that virtually every one of his contemporaries voted him in.

Wahoo McDaniel and Johnny Valentine are credited as being the guys inside the ring who took the Carolinas from just another Southern territory to becoming a national power. In San Antonio and Houston, he's probably the single biggest drawing card in the history of those markets (Houston for sure, Boesch told me his biggest draw ever was Wahoo). He set a number of gate records with Superstar Graham in the AWA. During the strap match series they set them pretty much everywhere but Chicago and Milwaukee and the Winnipeg record lasted a decade or so. Also, if you're talking "famous," Wahoo in the 70s was one of the most famous wrestlers on a national basis. He was one of the few I wouldn't say household names, but as a mainstream sports name, Wahoo in the 70s was a lot bigger than Sting in the 90s.

Regarding Sting as 20 years as a main eventer. Sting became a major star in March 1988. Looking at PPV shows and how many times he main evented:

1988 - 0 for 2
1989 - 2 for 5
1990 - 2 for 5
1991 - 2 for 5
1992 - 2 for 5
1993 - 4 for 7
1994 - 1 for 6
1995 - 2 for 9
1996 - 3 for 10
1997 - 1 for 11
1998 - 4 for 12
1999 - 4 for 12
2000 - 0 for 12

So that's 11 years as far as being a major promotion main eventer, 17 if you include TNA. Again, a lot of those were War Games and four-ways and stuff where since he was in the top mix he was thrown in. The numbers show the only year he was a key part of carrying the top was 1993, which was the company's least successful year.

Of those on the ballot main eventers for 17 years
Andersons
Assassins
Bastien
Gomez
Gunkel
Schmidt
Shibuya
Snyder
Tolos
Torres
Koloff
Morales
Murdoch
Hamada
Sakaguchi
Sasaki
Atlantis
Cien Caras
Blue Panther
L.A. Park
Villano III
Wagner
Big Daddy
McManus
Pallo
Colon
Iaukea
Lewin

So longevity at the top, he's not unique.

Forgetting about work because that's subjective, of guys on that list and being drawing cards:
Andersons - an arguable point
Assassins - probably edge to them
Bastien - Edge to Sting
Gomez - an arguable point, probably slight edge to Gomez
Schmidt - definite Schmidt ahead of Sting
Shibuya - an arguable point, I'd say edge to Sting
Snyder - probably slight edge to Snyder
Tolos - Close, but Tolos in 1971 may give him a slight edge
Torres - That's very difficult because he was before my time, but would look close
Von Brauners - No doubt a big edge to Von Brauners
Woods - Edge to Sting I think
Batista - Batista for sure
Edge - Arguable, Edge drew far more money but you could argue he was along for the ride
Owen Hart - Sting for sure
Hennig - Sting for sure
Koloff - Close, probably Edge to Koloff
Morales - Morales for sure
Murdoch - edge to Sting
Rock & Roll Express - Maybe Edge to Sting
Sabu - Edge to Sting
Slaughter - Easily Slaughter
Snuka - Debateable,
Wrestling II - Probably Wrestling II
Colon - easy edge to Colon
Arion - Hard to say from my standpoint, but if he was No. 2 face in Australia when Australia was the biggest money territory, it's a debateable point
Iaukea - Clearly a bigger draw than Sting if you include everywhere he went and a bigger name because he was a mainstream name in several places
Lewin - Don't know, would have to research

So that's 13 minimum not including Mexican wrestlers, Japanese wrestlers and European wrestlers.

As far as workers go, I don't want to judge those I didn't see live a lot, but those I can say were better workers than Sting for sure are:
Bastien, Woods, Edge, Owen Hart, Hennig, Koloff, Murdoch, Morton, Slaughter, Hamada, Han, Tamura, Williams, so he's not top ten there either. There are a lot of others you can argue but these are the ones where I could say they were better than Sting as workers without even giving it thought. Many others probably were as well, so he's not top ten there either.

As far as cross-referencing and such, you could put him top ten. You could not put him top ten. Arguing he's a slam dunk by any means is pretty silly.

So 17 years as a main eventer is a very good argument for getting on the ballot. Now you have to give a reason that if you are voting on ten guys (which is the max), why Sting is a better candidate than all of these guys.

I absolutely agree he is a candidate. I've yet to see an good argument that places him above these guys or even is top ten on this year's list. And I'm not denying he could be, just that every argument given here falls short so far when you look at the ballot as a whole.

This post really blows up the myth that Sting was a big time top guy. He really wasn't. The part I enlarged really hammers that home.

I lean yes. Never a major draw outside the one Starrcade, not a great worker (but to me an underrated, very good one), but when you consider he was booked on top for over two decades and is considered iconic to a whole generation (or two), it makes it close.

I think there are far stronger contenders on the ballot, and i'm not offended that he isn't in. I also would not be offended if he got in. Some days, I would vote for him. Others, I wouldn't. Firmly on the fence.

 

[Maynard]

wrestling HOF...do they go in as themselves or the charecter they played?

i wonder who would make the HOF if cartoon characters had a HOF. maybe Wile E. Coyote ....or even better, his ACME rocket

 

[s@ppisgod]

Sting and Edge are obviously in the yes pile. I mean, Trips is in. Clearly it's more accomplishment-based. Those two have no shortage of those.

Sting was the #1 guy in 97 WCW, belt or not. He was WCW's version of Austin before Goldberg. They wrote most shows around him. He was in 1 storyline that lasted 16 months for cryin out loud. He wasn't a big draw, but neither were HBK or Bret Hart and they are no-brainers. Foley isn't a draw either, and wasn't above average in the ring aside from selling and psychology.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

The fans came to see WCW and an all-star cast led to Hogan, NWO, Flair, Savage, and Sting as well. WCW's house shows did well and Sting was on none of them, advertised on none of them, and on the Nitros that Sting wasn't advertised they drew just as well as those he was advertised on. While Sting was part of the build for a year, they were building up PPV shows every month in 1997 and he was on none of them, and those were the focal points of the show until the last month. Again, when he showed up on the screen in a competitive environement, he did move ratings, more than most but he was not the top guy moving numbers, less than Flair, less then Savage, would have been less than Hogan but Hogan put himself in so many segments per show that he's not going to keep boosting numbers when he's all over the show as opposed to in one segment. I spoke a half dozen times a day to the people who were involved in advertising the show, at no point at any time was Sting the key guy advertised or believed to be the key guy moving anything. They believed it was Hogan, NWO and Flair in 1997 and Goldberg once he hit his stride in the spring of 1998. Maybe they were wrong but they were the ones with the merch numbers, quarter ratings and saw whose names were really selling tickets.

In no way at any time for any day did they believe Sting was the key. He was a very important part of 1997. And 1998 was far better for business than 1997 and that's when Sting had been moved down the show and Goldberg was in his position, and drew far better.

If you're arguing Sting belongs in for 1997, then Bill Goldberg should be a slam dunk for 1998, far bigger mainstream star to where not even comparable.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

more...

Dave doesn't like Sting is probably an argument of desperation like no other. I only have one vote. I don't not like Sting. Sting was among the very first wrestlers to be a full-time paid subscriber to the Observer in his early years in the business. He is on the ballot after not getting votes and being booted off because I put him back on. If he get in, I'm fine with it.

I'm just encouraging people to come up with reasons, not mythical main events (he headlined less during his era than Edge did) mythical drawing power (he was almost never a top ten draw in any year of his active career) and mythical what ifs ("Well, if he went to WWE, he'd have been in."). If Bill Goldberg jumped from WCW in 1998 and wrestled Steve Austin at WrestleMania in 1999, well, they'd have done more business then Rock ever did with him. If Ray Stevens hadn't broke his ankle go-kart racing and wrestled Pepper Gomez at Candlestick Park they'd have broken the Rogers-O'Connor record. That didn't happen, and it doesn't get Gomez or Goldberg in the Hall of Fame.

IT'S NOT THE BILL APTER CHOSE ME ON COVERS OF HIS MAGAZINES HALL OF FAME. Or else Luger and Kerry Von Erich also get in.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

Sting and Edge are obviously in the yes pile. I mean, Trips is in. Clearly it's more accomplishment-based. Those two have no shortage of those.

Sting was the #1 guy in 97 WCW, belt or not. He was WCW's version of Austin before Goldberg. They wrote most shows around him. He was in 1 storyline that lasted 16 months for cryin out loud. He wasn't a big draw, but neither were HBK or Bret Hart and they are no-brainers. Foley isn't a draw either, and wasn't above average in the ring aside from selling and psychology.

Here is the criteria:

The Hall of Fame is about:

1) Great workers
2) Top tier drawing cards (with the numbers to prove it)
3) Figures important historically in a positive manner.

People get all hung up on drawing power to exclude great workers are not understanding the criteria.

IT'S NOT THE HALL OF GUYS WHO GOT BIG PUSHES

Sting ticks box #3. Not a great worker, not a top tier drawing card.

Edge was probably a better draw than Sting in the big picture, similar workers with maybe a slight edge to Edge, #3 is close.

Bret & HBK are all time great workers, and also better draws than Sting. Honestly Sting shouldn't even be mentioned with those two in a HOF context imo.

Foley was a much better draw than Sting, and kills Sting with the third criteria. Far more famous, too. Work is close, depends on what you prefer, but most people would tell you Foley blows him away.

 

[s@ppisgod]

This is why I hate these fucking nerds as much as the dolts who argue hard-line for football metrics. There's so many things going on at different times in wrestling, that you can't point to one number and argue it as a stand-alone. That first quote is a joke. WCW was getting to a point where the roster was pretty loaded, and it could draw with Sting off the card or Macho Man injured as he often was or Hogan filming a movie. They were deeper than one guy. But Sting got such a reaction every time he showed up for a split second, it's hard to believe that people bought tickets to see Flair outside of the south, being that he was pretty stale at the time, not to mention always a heel. If somebody wants to downplay Sting for not being on a poster, and JUST the most crazy over guy in the business at a couple points that year, that's kind of a jackass idea though. Everybody whowent to Nitro around that time, did so hoping to see Sting come down and clean house. Crowds would crane their necks during good matches with big names, trying to catch a glimpse of the guy pacing on a catwalk.

Him being a lackluster merch seller is on WCW. Outside of the mask, there wasn't much to sell on him. SCSA had a different shirt or hat every month or so, much like Cena now. Sting just hung out in the rafters in his ring gear and with a bat. You can't really sell bats, so he's left with one, cheap piece of merchandise that is geared more towards kids. It's pretty niche.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

I think everybody agrees that Sting was a really big deal in 1997.

But there were a lot of guys who were a really big deal for one year.

Shit, there are plenty of guys who were bigger than Sting for longer than one year, like Kerry Von Erich, and don't sniff the HOF.

There is no data set or any sort of evidence that suggests that Sting was ever much of a draw outside of that one year, and he only wrestled one match. I mean, look at that PPV chart. If Sting was such a big deal, why was he never really given the ball as THE top guy? I'll tell you why. Because when he was on top, business never moved. So they would go back to Flair, or try Luger for the thousandth time, or whatever.

Again, I lean yes. But not based on drawing power. No way. Too much of that is rooted in myth and our perceptions from when we were kids and Sting was on TBS all of the time. His level of popularity never matched his push outside 1997.

 

[s@ppisgod]

Here is the criteria:



Sting ticks box #3. Not a great worker, not a top tier drawing card.

Edge was probably a better draw than Sting in the big picture, similar workers with maybe a slight edge to Edge, #3 is close.

Bret & HBK are all time great workers, and also better draws than Sting. Honestly Sting shouldn't even be mentioned with those two in a HOF context imo.

Foley was a much better draw than Sting, and kills Sting with the third criteria. Far more famous, too. Work is close, depends on what you prefer, but most people would tell you Foley blows him away.

It's the promotional effect though. Hart drew low for the promotion, but compared to Sting during the same loose time-period, he drew better. But does that take into account that WWF/E has always been the king of PPV? Same with HBK. Neither were good draws in the mid-90's, but when the business took off, they started to "draw" tied to Austin. Coincidence?

Was Foley a draw on equal ground in WCW? Did he ever draw not tied to Rock/Austin or even Trips?

 

[s@ppisgod]

I think everybody agrees that Sting was a really big deal in 1997.

But there were a lot of guys who were a really big deal for one year.

Shit, there are plenty of guys who were bigger than Sting for longer than one year, like Kerry Von Erich, and don't sniff the HOF.

There is no data set or any sort of evidence that suggests that Sting was ever much of a draw outside of that one year, and he only wrestled one match. I mean, look at that PPV chart. If Sting was such a big deal, why was he never really given the ball as THE top guy? I'll tell you why. Because when he was on top, business never moved. So they would go back to Flair, or try Luger for the thousandth time, or whatever.

Again, I lean yes. But not based on drawing power. No way. Too much of that is rooted in myth and our perceptions from when we were kids and Sting was on TBS all of the time. His level of popularity never matched his push outside 1997.

WCW in GENERAL wasn't a big time draw on par with WWF outside of mid-96 to very early 99. At the beginning, he was out for a while. Then he was a big deal. Then they fumbled him and lost footing until Goldberg gave them one last hurrah. That's the problem with buys and "draws". I'm not comfortable downgrading Sting because WCW screwed him up, then upgrading someone else because they simply got in the ring with Austin on PPV when he was the hottest selling thing on earth.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

It's the promotional effect though. Hart drew low for the promotion, but compared to Sting during the same loose time-period, he drew better. But does that take into account that WWF/E has always been the king of PPV? Same with HBK. Neither were good draws in the mid-90's, but when the business took off, they started to "draw" tied to Austin. Coincidence?

Was Foley a draw on equal ground in WCW? Did he ever draw not tied to Rock/Austin or even Trips?

But if Sting was as popular as people think he was, he would have taken WCW to WWE levels. He never came close.

We can't play what if. He never jumped to WWE, so we don't know.

I can tell you that Bret & HBK were better house show draws than Sting, even during the WWE down period. WWE PPV's were also beating WCW PPV's in the early 90's when neither company was doing particularly well. Everybody recognizes that Austin carried them later, but lets not forget that Hart was the bigger star and pushed harder when he feuded with Austin initially. Austin even credits Hart for helping to get him over. Sting in the early 90's pre Hogan was a lousy house show draw, drawing around 1,500 per night on top. and you can't just chalk that up to WCW being WCW, because Flair never drew that badly and always did better if you want to talk context.

Foley was a legitimate big time ratings draw during the same period that Sting was doing his thing on Nitro, and the companies were on equal ground. And Foley was the better draw.