John Cena: First ballot Wrestling Observer HOF'er

[Warner2BruceTD]

Paul Heyman vs Jerry Jarrett/Don Owen

Heyman ran a promotion that lasted less than a decade and ultimately lost money. Yes, he conned his way on to national TV and made chicken soup out of chicken shit, but the end game is money and he made none. Jarrett & Owen lasted decades and made millions.

Now, ECW did end up making millions - for Vince McMahon many years later. And the influence of ECW is obvious and really the most important part of Heyman's story. It changed wrestling. But it still failed.

And Heyman was obviously a brilliant booker and made stars who are in some cases still stars to this day out of marginal indie guys like Tommy Dreamer, Dudleys, Taz, Sandman, et al. He was also influential in giving breaks to smaller wrestlers like Eddy, Rey, Malenko, Benoit, etc which set the tone for the next decade.

Jarrett was a great booker in his own right, but only in his own bubble and he had little influence.

Also, Heyman booked Smackdown & OVW are the two most well received periods of each brand/entity.

He was/is a hall of fame caliber manager and one of the best promo men ever. Owen was just a promoter and Jarrett was not hall of fame level at anything but promoting.

So Heyman is in.

 

[LiquidLarry2GhostWF]

While I tend to agree with this, there is a reason Cena will always be a RAW guy, there is a reason Vince rushes Cena back from injuries, and doesn't want him taking too much time off.

House shows with Cena do better business, he sells the most merch, and his segments move TV ratings. RAW house shows outdraw SmackDown house shows, and it would reverse if he switched.

If Cena quit tomorrow, the house of cards would not collapse, but certain things would dip. He's not Hogan or Austin or Rock or Bruno but he's the next tier and means more than Orton, Punk, Big Show, Misterio,etc.

I think the WWE sees those dips because they've set themselves up to have those dips. They've pushed the fuck out of Cena to the point where he really is projected as the only legitimate top guy. But, there are fragments of evidence here and there...certain segments popping...certain buyrates...certain merch pushers that suggest that if it weren't Cena, it'd be somebody else. It isn't a knock on Cena so much as it is a knock on the WWE and what they've created. I mean, Punk has finally been pushed as the top guy...he sells as much merch as Cena at this point...he's maintaining the status quo in buyrates (despite the latest reports that RYBACK was the one who popped the HIAC number lololol) and ratings while "dropping" aren't anything other than normal seasonal ebb and flow...and Punk is the opposite of the image they project from a top guy...but after Punk...they legitimately have no one else. Certainly not Orton or any of those other wrestlers.

While I don't want to take anything away from Cena...I mean, we've discussed many times before how we both feel Cena is under appreciated...but at the same I can't hold Cena up on a pedestal as a top tier draw...hell, I don't even know if I could say he is second tier.

I mean, there are fewer eyes on wrestling today than any time in its history, and Cena is the "top guy". RAW is getting ratings that are as low as they've been since what...1997? And, surely, we wouldn't give Michaels or Hart any credit as being a legitimate "draw". I mean, surely we aren't giving Cena credit for the popped buyrate at 'Mania? You could certainly skew the numbers ala the Sting discussion to discredit Cena...I think it is unfair to Cena though...he's a shoe in Hall of Famer, to me...but, I wouldn't put him in there as an elite tier draw though...I'd put him in there for a few reasons.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

Ernesto Ocampo, editor of SuperLuchas magazine, submitted a full ten person ballot that did not include Dr. Wagner Sr, who came up one vote short.

He's taking some heat.

Last year, Wagner Sr was accidentally left off of the ballot by Meltzer completely due to an oversight. Dr. Wagner Jr got a spike in votes because a few people were confused. What a disaster.

 

[LiquidLarry2GhostWF]

Jerry Jarrett and Don Owen are such no brainers I wouldn't even realize they weren't in.

Those two bastards were profiting off territories over a decade after territories were dead lolololol

As for Heyman...obvious.

The man's ideas changed wrestling forever...not only that, but his influence and eye for talent essentially blossomed the entire post-Attitude Era WWE TWICE...Smackdown Six era and the Reign of CM Punk...was also a big proponent for John Cena...all while Vince gives him the Jim Ross treatment...impressive. Also, one could give him a heap of credit for molding the biggest MMA draw of all-timez.

 

[LiquidLarry2GhostWF]

btw - just for reference...my criteria for the Hall of Fame...ANY Hall of Fame, whether it be college football, pro football, basketball, chess, whatever has always been the same...

Can you tell the story of whatever it is your Hall of Fame is without this person? To me, that is the ultimate equalizer and often makes the question as to whether someone is a Hall of Famer very easy.

 

[LiquidLarry2GhostWF]

Ernesto Ocampo, editor of SuperLuchas magazine, submitted a full ten person ballot that did not include Dr. Wagner Sr, who came up one vote short.

He's taking some heat.

Last year, Wagner Sr was accidentally left off of the ballot by Meltzer completely due to an oversight. Dr. Wagner Jr got a spike in votes because a few people were confused. What a disaster.

Does he just not like Dr. Wagner?

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

He said on twitter "now I feel guilty"

idk. he liked ten people better I guess

 

[LiquidLarry2GhostWF]

Everytime I get into a discussion about the Observer Hall of Fame...it just baffles me some of the guys that aren't in...nevermind that there are major discussions over not including them.

Of the guys not mentioned here...

Mr. Wrestling II...HUGE in Georgia.
Gene and Ole Anderson...the top heel tag team in possibly the country during periods of the late 70's.
Gary Hart...when history tells the story of World Class...the Von Erichs are Chapter 1...Gary Hart is Chapter 2.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

It's really hard to get in. 60% doesn't sound like much, but it's hard.

Here is the less smarmy description of the criteria, btw

The basic criteria for the Hall of Fame is a combination of drawing power, being a great in-ring performer as well as having historical significance in a positive manner. A candidate should have something to offer in all three categories, or be someone so strong in one or two of those categories that they deserve inclusion.

Longevity should be a prime consideration rather than a hot two or three year run, unless someone is so significant as a trend-setter in the business, or valuable to the industry, that they should be included. However, just longevity, without being either a long-term main eventer, a top draw and/or top caliber worker should be seen as relatively meaningless.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

There is currently a 72 page, 1800 post thread complaining about Big Daddy being snubbed. LOL ENGLAND

 

[LiquidLarry2GhostWF]

It's really hard to get in. 60% doesn't sound like much, but it's hard.

Here is the less smarmy description of the criteria, btw

What ends up happening there, is they try to be so "elite" in their voting, and on another hand, "worldly" that they end up leaving out more qualified candidates for the sake of worldliness.

 

[LiquidLarry2GhostWF]

To be fair, Big Daddy is a huge pop culture figure in England. HUGE.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

I dont know enough about Big Daddy to judge. All I know is he dropped from 44% to 20%, and the voting is regionalized so it's brits keeping him out.

 

[LiquidLarry2GhostWF]

Much like British humor, its just one of those things that is tough to get. I've always had a comparison of him to King Kong Bundy, but in a different generation and era...there was a charm about him and a certain novelty that was gotten by the English.

Oh, and he did kill a guy in the ring.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

Albano is only the fourth inductee who is in primarily for being a manager. The others are Wild Red Berry, Bobby Heenan, and Jim Cornette.

I figured there would be more, but now that I think about it, I can't come up with many. Jimmy Hart goes back on the ballot next year. I think he was dropped at one point for falling under 10%. I think he has a case.

Sherri Martel? I lean yes. JJ Dillon? I lean no.

 

[LiquidLarry2GhostWF]

Managers...

Sherri is a yes.
JJ is a yes.
I'd lean yes to Jimmy Hart.

Did Paul Ellering get in with the Road Warriors?

If you are going old school...who would be worthy to even mention? Arnold Skaaland? The Grand Wizard?

Interesting case...Paul Bearer?

 

[Senser81]

Gorilla Monsoon - Fondly remembered if you are under 40, but considered a terrible announcer by people at the time. I lean yes, when you factor in a borderline HOF wrestling career, influence as a part owner of both WWF & WWC, etc.

I don't see how mediocre "wrestlers" like Jesse Ventura and lame managers like Capt. Lou Albano can garner HOF support, yet Gorilla Monsoon is lost in the shuffle with stooges like Wendi Richter and Stan Hansen. You can't tell the story of pro wrestling without mentioning Gorilla Monsoon. He excelled in every area of the sport. The guy was a great ambassador for the sport. When you look back on the history of pro wrestling, there are a lot of bad marks, eyesores, and scandals...yet Gorilla Monsoon was always a man of character. He's like the baseball player that performed well in the Steroid Era yet wasn't on steroids.

 

[FedEx227]

Meltzer and a lot of the guys within the industry weren't as big of fans of Monsoon as fans on the outside were. His announcing was by and large pretty awful, it's just familiar.

I think he's worth at least some mention or merit, but I can easily see how he's out.

Ventura and Albano both played a huge part in shaping the world of wrestling as it is today. Albano was one of the top heels in the late 70s/80s WWWF/WWF and was the connection McMahon had to Cindy Lauper, which spawned the timeslot on MTV, which spawned Rock n Wrestling, which spawned WrestleMania and the rest is history.

Ventura, a little bit less so, I'll agree. Pretty meh wrestler, but drew decently, great announcer with WWF, horrid/lazy announcer with WCW, I wonder if what he's done post-wrestling has helped that candidacy as well.

 

[FedEx227]

Overall:

My favorite issue of the year, read it all last night. So good.

 

[Senser81]

Ventura and Albano both played a huge part in shaping the world of wrestling as it is today. Albano was one of the top heels in the late 70s/80s WWWF/WWF and was the connection McMahon had to Cindy Lauper, which spawned the timeslot on MTV, which spawned Rock n Wrestling, which spawned WrestleMania and the rest is history.

Sounds like Cindi Lauper should be in the wrestling hall of fame.