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Jordan and Kobe have both played 1072 Games- Compare....

Champ

Well-known member
Jordan has about 5k more points, 600 more assist 4 more Mvps and about 8 more scoring championships. I am not going to list all the stats, but I will list some of the variables:

Kobe played out of high school when he was 19, MJ out of UNC when he was 21

MJ took 2 years off in his prime and played into his 40s (lol)

Kobe has lost twice already in the finals...MJ never did

Discuss....
 
MJ all day. Kobe is the closest thing we've seen to Mike but still isn't even close. That said, that just shows how great MJ was when Kobe, who many considered the best at one point still isn't very close to MJ in the numbers
 
Not trying to defend Kobe but Jordan never played alongside a player like Shaq. Kobe's scoring would be much higher if Shaq wasn't scoring 25 a night as well
 
Not trying to defend Kobe but Jordan never played alongside a player like Shaq. Kobe's scoring would be much higher if Shaq wasn't scoring 25 a night as well

Ok, and imagine how many more titles Jordan would have if he had played with a guy like Shaq. Plus, even after Shaq left Kobe wasn't scoring like Jordan was. Kobe's only had 2-3 seasons of scoring that are anywhere near comparable to what Jordan was doing his entire career.

I still remember some ass clown on MM saying he'd take Kobe over Jordan.
 
I don't care how many titles Kobe gets, he'll never be the player Jordan was. We're talking about one of the top three greatest players in NBA history. And this is coming from a Jordan hater. I can't stand that bitchass, but I acknowledge his greatness.
 
I saw this last night on SportsCenter. There are three guys Id want to take the shot with the game on the line
MJ
Kobe
Bird

I understand the whole comparison thing but they played in different eras with different types of supporting casts. Just look at how much the game has changed from MJ to now. Ive always been a huge MJ fan and Bulls fan but I can appreciate what Kobe does and his style of play

I still believe to this date that Jordan's little baseball experiment was a way the league delt with his gambling and other off court issues other then a suspension of the NBA's greatest player

The press always wanted Jordan to like them, they were fans of his thats why they never bashed him in the papers. Even the NY papers didnt make that much of a big deal when he was seen at a casino the night before a playoff game there.
 
I still believe to this date that Jordan's little baseball experiment was a way the league delt with his gambling and other off court issues other then a suspension of the NBA's greatest player
:obama:

So the NBA "suspended" it's top cash maker for not doing anything illegal?

Brilliant.

Jordan was a God and the NBA was in it's Golden Age. Stern would never have suspended Jordan. If anything was wrong, Stern could have slapped Jordan on the wrist maybe fined him and the fans still would have showed up and for the most part not cared any, if at all.

The press always wanted Jordan to like them, they were fans of his thats why they never bashed him in the papers. Even the NY papers didnt make that much of a big deal when he was seen at a casino the night before a playoff game there.

A NY paper broke the story.................
 
:obama:

So the NBA "suspended" it's top cash maker for not doing anything illegal?

Brilliant.

Jordan was a God and the NBA was in it's Golden Age. Stern would never have suspended Jordan. If anything was wrong, Stern could have slapped Jordan on the wrist maybe fined him and the fans still would have showed up and for the most part not cared any, if at all.



A NY paper broke the story.................

My opinion is "yes" so they wouldnt have a whole Pete Rose type deal, they made it disappear before it came to a head. then what logicial reason would he leave and try to play baseball after they just won three in a row.

Yes the paper broke the story but reporters crawled up Jordan's ass just so he would like them. I know someone had to report the story but Im saying in general when Jordan was at practice or after a game they blew him. No sport reporter today treats any athlete like that.

It was just all to conincidental, all this shit comes out in 93 about him gambling in AC before a playoff game, he admitted another time he had to cover like $50K in lost bets and then I think a guy wrote a book saying how much Jordan lost on the glf course to him. His father was murdered in a "car jacking"

Then in Oct of 93 he announces his retirement, convince me otherwise then "my dad wanted me to play baseball"

Reinsdorf kept Jordan on the books so he was still getting paid by the Bulls too..

Again Im a huge Jordan fan, but off the court Jordan was a selffish prick. He cheated on his wife, paid soemone to keep quite about their fling and these are the things you dont hear about.
 
My opinion is "yes" so they wouldnt have a whole Pete Rose type deal, they made it disappear before it came to a head.
Pete Rose was betting on baseball.

Jordan played cards, bet on golf, went to Casino's. There is nothing to ever suggest he bet on basketball...especially the Bulls.

Apples meet oranges.
then what logicial reason would he leave and try to play baseball after they just won three in a row.
His dad was just brutally murdered and was his best friend and biggest supporter. The guy was emotionally wrecked and wanted to give baseball a try, something his dad and him had dsicussed for years.

That makes a hell of a lot more sense than David Stern suspended Jordan 2 weeks before the season started because Jordan likes to legally gamble.


. No sport reporter today treats any athlete like that.
You saw the coverage of Favre right? You recall how ESPN fellated Bonds, Clemens, etc right? Lance Armstrong is doing Christmas commercials.

It was just all to conincidental, all this shit comes out in 93 about him gambling in AC before a playoff game
I hate to break it to you but Jordan was gambling long before that. Had a trail of whores long before that and it was pretty well known. On top of all that Jordan was gambling when he got back into basketball. Don't believe me? Read the book "Bull Run". There's a page size photo of Jordan and Pippen playing poker on the team jet.


he admitted another time he had to cover like $50K in lost bets
OMG Michael Jordan lost 50K! As if Jordan in 1993 was really worried about 50K.
His father was murdered in a "car jacking"
Any proof it was anything but a car jacking?

Then in Oct of 93 he announces his retirement, convince me otherwise then "my dad wanted me to play baseball"
The burden of proof is on you. Not the other way around. Show me evidence of your theory. Not speculation. Actual evidence. It's hilarious to think that Jordan's dad was killed by bookie's henchmen yet when they are caught they didn't flip and make a deal to unravel the entire operation.


The whole "Jordan Conspiracy" thing is nice fodder for morons but it has no basis in fact.
 
Pete Rose was betting on baseball.

Jordan played cards, bet on golf, went to Casino's. There is nothing to ever suggest he bet on basketball...especially the Bulls.

Apples meet oranges.

Im talking about the All Time Hits Leader, an Icon in the baseball world, what he was drug through. I think Stern didnt want Jordan to go through the same so he told him step away, let it blow over Stern was protecting his league and his top dog. I never said he bet on baseketball

His dad was just brutally murdered and was his best friend and biggest supporter. The guy was emotionally wrecked and wanted to give baseball a try, something his dad and him had dsicussed for years.

That makes a hell of a lot more sense than David Stern suspended Jordan 2 weeks before the season started because Jordan likes to legally gamble. Didnt know gambling on the golf course for millions was legal


You saw the coverage of Favre right? You recall how ESPN fellated Bonds, Clemens, etc right? Lance Armstrong is doing Christmas commercials. I havent seen the press crawl up Bonds ass. One guy did and once Bonds ripped him that all stopped.


I hate to break it to you but Jordan was gambling long before that. Had a trail of whores long before that and it was pretty well known. On top of all that Jordan was gambling when he got back into basketball. Don't believe me? Read the book "Bull Run". There's a page size photo of Jordan and Pippen playing poker on the team jet. Playing poker on the team jet and dropping a million to some country club pro is two different things. In your words Apples meet Oranges.

OMG Michael Jordan lost 50K! As if Jordan in 1993 was really worried about 50K. 50K is alot more then some people make so yeah when shit comes out its gonna be a big deal.

Any proof it was anything but a car jacking? Do you have any proof thats all it was or is that all they are saying.

The burden of proof is on you. Not the other way around. Show me evidence of your theory. Not speculation. Actual evidence. It's hilarious to think that Jordan's dad was killed by bookie's henchmen yet when they are caught they didn't flip and make a deal to unravel the entire operation.

Why is it so hard to believe he got knocked off, do you know what he owed bookies

The whole "Jordan Conspiracy" thing is nice fodder for morons but it has no basis in fact.
Now the morons statement is totally uncalled for, I understand you're an Ill/Chi guy and are defending your childhood hero
 
Im talking about the All Time Hits Leader, an Icon in the baseball world, what he was drug through. I think Stern didnt want Jordan to go through the same so he told him step away, let it blow over Stern was protecting his league and his top dog. I never said he bet on baseketball
What Rose did was against the rules of baseball. What Jordan was doing wasn't even illegal, let alone against the rules of basketball.

Keep trying.


Didnt know gambling on the golf course for millions was lega
Wasn't aware it was. Care to show me where Jordan was arrested indicted charged etc with it? Hell Care to show me where he was even investigated?
I havent seen the press crawl up Bonds ass. One guy did and once Bonds ripped him that all stopped.
Then you weren't watching the news. ESPN gave him his own damn reality TV show for Christsakes.

Seriously?!


Playing poker on the team jet and dropping a million to some country club pro is two different things. In your words Apples meet Oranges.
:obama:

Way to miss the point. The point was to show that Jordan didn't stop gambling in or out of the public eye. If his suspension was truly for gambling do you think he'd be dumb enough to come back and allow himself to be photographed gambling?



50K is alot more then some people make so yeah when shit comes out its gonna be a big deal.
:obama: again.

Yeah it's a big deal to some people. But then again they aren't the ones in the hole. Jordan was and 50K isn't a big fucking deal to him. Like Jordan was worried about 50K when his monthly mortgage and car payments was more than likely well beyond that. Jordan most likely made that amount of money in the time it took him to take a shit.



Do you have any proof thats all it was or is that all they are saying.
Seriously?

I just gave you the logic behind it.

They also never denied being space aliens.

Or denied working for the KGB.

The abscence of evidence isn't evidence.





Why is it so hard to believe he got knocked off, do you know what he owed bookies
Do you?

Without knowing what he owed anyone then your motive is out the window. He could have owed them nothing. For your theory to even begin to have credibility you would need to establish what he owed bookies and build a motive from there.

Now the morons statement is totally uncalled for, I understand you're an Ill/Chi guy and are defending your childhood hero

Nice try dip shit. I just called "my child hood hero" and womanizer, and gambler, and a complete asshole.

For the record: Jordan was not/is not my hero.
 
He was my childhood hero but I can still say this shit about him. but here is something for you to read

In 1992, after winning his second championship, Jordan was called to testify in the criminal trial of James Bouler to explain why why Bouler, a convicted drug dealer, was in possession of a Jordan-signed personal check for $57,000.

First, Jordan claimed it was a business loan, but under oath he admitted that it was a payment for on gambling losses for a single weekend.

Then, in early 1993, San Diego businessman Richard Equinas revealed in his book Michael and Me: Our Gambling Addiction...My Cry for Help that he had won over $900,000 from Jordan in golf betting.

Around the same time, MJ was spotted in an Atlantic City casino in the early hours on the morning of Game Two of the Eastern Conference Finals.

After the Bulls won their third championship, the NBA launched an investigation into Jordan's gambling problems to check whether he had violated any league rules. Then, four months later Jordan stunned the world by suddenly retiring from professional basketball.

At the press conference when he was asked if he would ever return he said, " Five years down the road, if the urge comes back, if the Bulls will have me, if David Stern lets me back in the league, I may come back." Now why in the world would Jordan ever say if David Stern lets him back, then maybe he would come back when the reporter didn't mention Stern's name at all in his question?

Only days after Jordan announced his retirement, the league dropped its investigation, saying he did nothing wrong (I guess betting numerous amounts on sports isn't wrong then).

Was there a secret agreement between Jordan and Stern where Stern told him to simply retire and create a distraction so that he wouldn't face a suspension and have his huge marketable name stay clean?


The distraction occurred when Jordan then decided to play minor league baseball in the White Sox organization, even though he would've had trouble hitting a beach ball, yet alone a baseball. In 102 games with the Barons, Jordan had a .202 average along with 3 homers, 51 RBI, 30 stolen bases, 114 strikeouts, and a .555 OPS.

Also, in the much respected book Money Players Days and Nights Inside the New NBA by Armen Keteyian, it states that in 1993, the league had an interview with Richard Equinas during their investigation on Jordan's gambling. He said that in March of 1992, he overheard a telephone conversation Jordan was having with an unknown person.

During the conversation, he heard Jordan talking about a betting line, "So you say the line is seven points." The game MJ was talking about isn't known, but the accusations are extremely serious as that means if Jordan was indeed betting on sports, he was breaking a sacred, unwritten rule for all professional athletes, as that is against the integrity of the game.

Personally, my opinion on this subject is that Jordan and David Stern had a secret meeting where Stern told Jordan to leave the game for a brief period to save himself, the league's by far most marketable and popular player, embarrassment and scrutiny from a public suspension.

I also think it was done brilliantly by commissioner Stern as today most people don't really know much of this theory as Jordan's reputation is fantastic, even though he was a huge gambler and a questionable teammate and because Jordan came back less than two years late and won three more championships with the Bulls before retiring for a second time.

The main reason why I believe this theory is because I simply don't believe a player as competitive as Jordan would suddenly retire right at the peak of his career to supposedly play baseball when he knew he wasn't that good and because he said he was too worn out because of the past championship runs and 1992 Olympics.

MJ was the best player on the best team and he wanted to be the best to ever play the game, so I don't believe he would have retired on his own when he knew if he had played, his Bulls would've had undoubtedly extended their streak of championships to four, unless a major injury had occurred.

I do think there was a really good chance that this occurred because it doesn't make sense that he retired when he did.

There you go jock strap
 
Sounds to me like you for some reason can't accept that he just wanted to play baseball and are making up stories to explain it and entertain yourself.
 
Sounds to me like you for some reason can't accept that he just wanted to play baseball and are making up stories to explain it and entertain yourself.

He wanted to play baseball, fine. Just doesnt make sense to me. And above I listed a time line and things that happened. FirstTimer wanted proof he was investigated so there it is.
 
In 1992, after winning his second championship, Jordan was called to testify in the criminal trial of James Bouler to explain why why Bouler, a convicted drug dealer, was in possession of a Jordan-signed personal check for $57,000.


First, Jordan claimed it was a business loan, but under oath he admitted that it was a payment for on gambling losses for a single weekend.
Alright?
So as you can see Jordan owing 50K to anyone isn't hat big of a deal because he wrote a fucking check for it. There goes your previosu theory of Jordan owing people money(50K) and it being a reason his dad was murdered.

Then, in early 1993, San Diego businessman Richard Equinas revealed in his book Michael and Me: Our Gambling Addiction...My Cry for Help that he had won over $900,000 from Jordan in golf betting.
Not illegal....And this doesn't show me where he was investigated arrested, etc.


Around the same time, MJ was spotted in an Atlantic City casino in the early hours on the morning of Game Two of the Eastern Conference Finals.
Not illegal...not even close to being punishable by the NBA. I'd be willin to bet Jordan isn't the onl NBA player to be in Atlantic City early in the morning before a late afternoon game.


After the Bulls won their third championship, the NBA launched an investigation into Jordan's gambling problems to check whether he had violated any league rules.
And what did the investgation show? What did it find?

Even still, unless MJ killed someone on national TV Stern wasn't going to suspend him. Jordan being a compulsive gambler isn't illegal and the last time Stern suspended a player for a season it took the player bum rushing fans at a game to do so.

Then, four months later Jordan stunned the world by suddenly retiring from professional basketball.
I lvoe how this chain of events leaves out Jordan's dad being murdered.

" Five years down the road, if the urge comes back, if the Bulls will have me, if David Stern lets me back in the league, I may come back."

The reporter never mentioned the Bulls either yet Jordan mentioned them. Not only that Jordan was smart enough to realize that in order for him to come out of retirement it has to be approved by the league since Jordan filed official retirement papers. Stern would literally have to let Jordan back in the league.

Only days after Jordan announced his retirement, the league dropped its investigation, saying he did nothing wrong (I guess betting numerous amounts on sports isn't wrong then).
It's not. I was just in Vegas. I could have bet, legally, as much as I wanted on what Mahstays gross punting average was going to be in the Super Bowl.


The distraction occurred when Jordan then decided to play minor league baseball in the White Sox organization, even though he would've had trouble hitting a beach ball, yet alone a baseball. In 102 games with the Barons, Jordan had a .202 average along with 3 homers, 51 RBI, 30 stolen bases, 114 strikeouts, and a .555 OPS.
Imagine that, Jordan hasn't played baseball since grade school/HS when he pitched and has trouble hitting quality pitching. Not only that by the time the AFL came around Jordan was hitting better and the MLB strike scared Jordan off as well.


During the conversation, he heard Jordan talking about a betting line, "So you say the line is seven points." The game MJ was talking about isn't known, but the accusations are extremely serious as that means if Jordan was indeed betting on sports, he was breaking a sacred, unwritten rule for all professional athletes, as that is against the integrity of the game.
So you're saying it's an unwritten rule that athletes can't bet on sports?

Your theory has no motive.

Jordan was also too big of an asshole to let Stern push him around. Jordan is as likely IMO to tell Stern to go ahead and suspend him for 10 games or whatever kiss his ass and continue to light the league up and make tens of millions of dollars a year.

Jordan's dad was brutally murdered. He lost his best friend. The guy who wanted him to try and play baseball. Jordan wanted to try and live that dream. He did. On top of all that it's been 15 years now. This is a country that can hide the POTUS getting a hummer from a fat chick. You don't think that if this story were even the slightest bit true some former NBA exec or insider would have broken the story by now? Jordan was/is the worlds most recognized athlete as well as if some half wit bookie or his buddies wouldn't have latched on the opprotunity to say "Yeah I know all about Jordan" sell the story for millions and break it wide open? Seriously?

Quit being a conspiratorial moron.
 
FirstTimer wanted proof he was investigated so there it is.

You're an idiot.

I asked for a proof of an investigation in the context of discussing the legalty of the sports betting. I was obviously obviously asking for proof of law enforcement of some kind looking into it. The NBA looking into Jordan's gambling problem(which I was already aware of) isn't the same thing.
 
Care to show me where Jordan was arrested indicted charged etc with it? Hell Care to show me where he was even investigated?
Originally Posted by manchild24
FirstTimer wanted proof he was investigated so there it is.

You're an idiot.

I asked for a proof of an investigation in the context of discussing the legalty of the sports betting. I was obviously obviously asking for proof of law enforcement of some kind looking into it. The NBA looking into Jordan's gambling problem(which I was already aware of) isn't the same thing.

obviously you werent, you said to show you proof on an investigation. here comes the back tracking now.

Here Junior Im done with this because you just keep changing your story.

I said his father COULD have been murdered for this.
I never said he bet on sports, I said Stern didnt want the same type of shit that happened to Pete Rose happen to MJ.
He owed 50K to a fucking drug dealer, that he first said was a loan then under oath said something else


http://thefixisin.net/likemike.html

Think MJ simply retired while playing for the Bulls in 1993? Think again...

This article was referenced by sports writing legend Jack McCallum of Sports Illustrated here (who did not deny that Jordan may have been asked to walk away from the NBA due to his gambling habits by Commissioner David Stern) and by Henry Abbott in his ESPN.com TrueHoop blog.


Don’t Wanna Be Like Mike
“I’m no Pete Rose” - Michael Jordan

October 6, 1993. Not what you’d call a red-letter date in history. But in the sporting world, especially the NBA, nothing could’ve been more shocking. Michael Jordan, the biggest and brightest star in the entire sporting world, suddenly announced his retirement from the NBA. Having just led his team, the Chicago Bulls, to its third World Championship in as many years, and still reeling from the tragic murder of his father James Jordan in July of that same year, MJ had had enough.

But almost forgotten in the hubbub surrounding his retirement was the NBA’s ongoing investigation into allegations of Michael Jordan’s gambling problem. Not surprisingly, just two days after Jordan’s speech, the NBA announced its five month long investigation had ended with the league apparently finding nothing of significance.

Under this squeaky clean surface, however, bubbled true ugliness. For I don’t believe that Michael Jordan willingly “retired” on that October morning, but was directed by the NBA and its commissioner David Stern to seek counseling for his growing addiction to gambling. An addiction that was well known both inside and outside the league, and one that had to be kept as invisible as possible so as not to tarnish the image of both Michael Jordan and the NBA.

High Stakes

In the 1970’s, Dr. J brought excitement to the NBA. In the 1980’s, Magic Johnson and Larry Bird added fuel to that smoldering fire with their skill and rivalry. But in the late 80’s and early 90’s, Michael Jordan turned that fire in an inferno. And with him, came an economic boom unlike anything the NBA had ever seen.

For Michael Jordan wasn’t just an NBA superstar. He was the NBA. It was estimated at one time that 70% of all basketball fans considered themselves Chicago Bulls fans –meaning Michael Jordan fans. Almost single-handedly, Jordan made the NBA into a commercial powerhouse. Ticket sales increased league wide (Jordan almost always played to sell-outs, both home and away). Merchandise (mainly Bulls jerseys with the number 23 emblazoned on them) flew off shelves. And most importantly to the NBA, the money taken in from TV revenues went through the roof. In 1985 (Jordan’s rookie year), CBS paid the NBA $188 million for a 4-year TV contract. In 1989, NBC was willing to shell out $600 million for that same amount of time. Who do you think the #1 attraction was?

However in the fall of 1991, a series of events began that threatened not only the image of Michael Jordan, but the millions of dollars his name meant.

Money on the Line

Michael Jordan craved competition. It was this passion that led to his compulsive gambling. He gambled on just about anything. While at North Carolina, he used to bet fellow players sodas or small amounts of money on free throws or games of “Horse.” Although not necessarily sanctioned by the team, it went largely ignored.

These activities carried on into the pros, and with the huge influx of money, the stakes steadily increased. He played poker with his teammates on road trips and was known to be quite the shark. Bulls coaches would warn the younger players not to play poker with him – he was that good. He even gambled on the outcome of video games.(1)

But it was golf, his second passion, which proved to be his downfall.




He began betting small, maybe $100 on a hole or a putt. But as his confidence on the golf course grew, so did the amounts of the bets. And why not? Jordan had plenty of money and he was a good golfer. Just not good enough to avoid losing to the wrong people.

In 1991, Jordan and a group of friends went on a week long gambling spree at his Hilton Head home in North Carolina, golfing all day and playing poker all night. By the time it ended, Jordan was into James “Slim” Bouler for $57,000 and Eddie Dow for $108,000. This in and of itself wouldn’t be such a big deal except for the fact that Bouler was a convicted cocaine dealer and had two probation violations for carrying semiautomatic weapons.

This was just the beginning for Jordan. On October 21, 1991, Jordan paid the $57,000 to Bouler who turned around and placed the money in an account for the “Golf-Tech Driving Range.” The IRS quickly seized it, believing the funds may have been ill gotten since Bouler was again under investigation for dealing cocaine.

Now the shit hit the fan for Jordan. In the wake of these dealings coming to light, Jordan told the press that the $57,000 was merely a loan to a friend to start a golf range. That lie carried a lot of weight. So much so that U.S. District Court Judge Graham C. Mullen ruled that the IRS violated Bouler’s rights in seizing the $57,000 check. Judge Mullen admitted that he based his ruling on Jordan’s claims that the money was a loan – even though he never actually questioned Jordan.(2)

That seemed to suffice. For a while. Then in February of 1992, Jordan’s gambling associate Eddie Dow was robbed of $20,000 and murdered just outside his home. In Dow’s belongings they found photocopies of three checks that totaled $108,000 – the exact amount Jordan had lost to him months earlier. Two of the checks were from Jordan’s personal account. The third was a cashier’s check made out by Jordan.

Then, almost one year to the day after originally paying Bouler the $57,000, Michael Jordan was in court at Bouler’s trial for drug and money-laundering charges. Under oath, during a nine minute testimony, Michael Jordan admitted that the $57,000 was not a loan but indeed a gambling debt.

Tip of the Iceberg?

In June of 1993, another Michael Jordan gambling story broke. This one hovered around the book Michael & Me: Our Gambling Addiction…My Cry for Help! written by San Diego businessman Richard Esquinas. Esquinas claimed that during a ten-day period in 1991, Jordan had lost $1.25 million to him gambling on golf. No one initially believed his story, until Esquinas produced the correspondences with Jordan and the canceled checks to back it.

At the beginning of 1992, Esquinas contacted Jordan several times asking Jordan to pay off the bet. After a few token payments (some sent to Esquinas by Jordan’s wife Juanita) and many broken promises, Esquinas offered Jordan an out. Jordan agreed to settle the matter at $300,000. In March of 1993 Jordan had Chicago attorney Wayne A. McCoy send Esquinas $100,000. Then in May of that same year, McCoy sent Esquinas another $100,000. But by then, Esquinas had lost his patience waiting for his money and he published the book.

Jordan didn’t lie this time. Instead, he issued a statement. “I have played golf with Richard Esquinas with wagers made between us. Because I did not keep records, I cannot verify how much I won or lost. I can assure you the level of our wagers was substantially less than the preposterous amounts that have been reported.” (3)



Even with that admission of guilt, Jordan managed to deny any sort of problem. He told player friendly NBC reporter Ahmad Rashad “If I had a [gambling] problem, I’d be starving. I’d be hocking this watch, my championship rings, I would sell my house. My kids would be starving. I do not have a problem. I enjoy gambling.” (4)

For a man that made hundreds of millions of dollars to claim that “if” he had a gambling problem, he’d be “starving” is quite laughable. He went on to say to Rashad, “My wife, if I had a problem, would have left me or certainly would have come and said seek help…my wife never said anything, and she’s the chief of finances in our household.” It’s obvious she must’ve known something since she’s the one who originally paid Esquinas.




During the time this story broke, Jordan decided to make an ill-advised trip to Atlantic City – right in the middle of the 1993 playoff series against the New York Knicks. Jordan claimed to the media that he was gone well before midnight the night before Game 2 in New York; however, he was seen in the casino well past midnight and into the wee hours of the morning. That was the last time Jordan would do that – during the playoffs. It has been reported on more that one occasion that when Jordan played in New York or New Jersey he’d venture down to Atlantic City, or if he were in Los Angeles or Utah he’d likely make a pit stop in Las Vegas.

The day after this new gambling story broke about Jordan and Atlantic City; NBC announcer Bob Costas had a halftime interview with NBA Commissioner David Stern. During that interview, Costas badgered Stern about the story – much to the disdain of NBA Sports President Dick Ebersol who was screaming in Costas’s earpiece to lay off and switch subjects.(5) Costas, much to his credit, did not back down and asked the tough questions that should have been asked. But to little avail.

NBC laid off the story from that point onward. Jordan became quite tight lipped as well. He stopped talking to the media. Even though such silence - especially during the playoffs - is a fineable offense in the NBA, Jordan never received a single fine. For Stern and the NBA, Jordan’s silence might have been a blessing in disguise.

Breaking Point

By now, the NBA had had enough. They had been through this once before in 1992 with the Bouler ordeal. That two-week “investigation” ended with Commissioner David Stern announcing, “This situation has been investigated with complete cooperation of Michael and his attorneys and [the head of the NBA investigation] Judge Lacey has assured us that there appears to be no reason for the NBA to take action against Michael.” (6) But in reality, the “two week investigation” consisted of a 2½-hour meeting between Jordan, his attorneys, and top NBA officials. The NBA never questioned either Bouler or any of the local or Federal investigating officers in the case, and never asked to see the records from Bouler’s trial. No wonder there appeared to be no reason to take action against Jordan.

Jordan was merely given a slap on the wrist and told to watch who he associates with. He himself claimed to Chicago Tribune writer Bob Greene, “Was I gambling with goons who had bad reputations? Yeah, I was. Should I not gamble with goons anymore? Yeah, I shouldn’t gamble with goons.”

But now, in 1993, Jordan was on strike two and a half. During this second, and much more thorough investigation, the league was to discover that not only were the amounts involved larger, but also that the accusations were much more damning. According to the book Money Players: Days and Nights Inside the New NBA, in July 1993 the NBA interviewed Esquinas in its New York offices. During that interview, Esquinas told the investigators that in March of 1992, he had overheard a telephone conversation Jordan was having with an unknown person. During that phone call, Jordan talked about a betting line; saying “So you say the line is seven points.”(7) Of what game, it is unknown. But this was a serious accusation. If Jordan was indeed gambling on sports, then he had broken that sacred, unwritten rule for professional athletes.

The question is, how credible did the NBA think this allegation was? I think they took it as quite credible. They most definitely did not want Jordan to become the NBA’s version of Pete Rose, who was a certain Hall of Famer in baseball until he was suspended for life over gambling. Rose, the all-time hits leader in the MLB, never made it into the Hall of Fame despite all of his on the field accomplishments because off the field, he was a sports gambler.

Baseball was more than Pete Rose. But Jordan was more than basketball. He was Nike. He was McDonalds. He was Chevrolet. He was even considered a national hero by winning a gold medal for Team USA (the “Dream Team”) in the 1992 Olympics. Jordan meant a lot of money to a lot of people. $40 million dollars a year in endorsement deals alone. And here it seemed that he was spinning out of control. Inching closer and closer to a revelation that would not only bring down a man, but what seemed like an American institution.

What was potentially even more threatening to the league than MJ’s gambling was the fact that he was consistently associating with seeming criminals. He was putting himself in a position where he could easily be blackmailed. Perhaps blackmailed into doing something on the court like shaving points or worse – throwing games. I think at this point the NBA and Commissioner David Stern stepped in and talked to Michael Jordan about “retirement.”

Retirement

I don’t believe that the news conference called on October 6, 1993 was what it purported itself to be. There were no tears in Michael Jordan’s eyes. There was no sadness, no cracking voices. Merely a statement followed by some quick, easy to answer questions, and then “retirement.”

According to his own statement, why did Jordan decide to retire? First, he stated, “I just feel that at this particular time in my career, I’ve reached the pinnacle…that I don’t have anything else to prove to myself.” Quite hypocritical considering 17 months later he was back playing for the Bulls. I guess even after being named Rookie of the Year, leading the league in scoring for 7 years in a row, being named MVP twice, winning the NBA Championship three times, and being hailed as the greatest player to ever play the game, Jordan found something else he needed to prove.

Then came, “The biggest gratification, the biggest positive thing that I can take out of my father not being here with me today is that he saw my last basketball game, and that means a lot.” Having occurred in July of 1993, the murder of James Jordan surely weighed heavily on Michael’s mind at the time.

Although some have speculated that his father’s death had something to do with Jordan’s gambling, I don’t believe that to be the case.

James Jordan wasn’t a saint, truth be told. He was found guilty and sentenced to three years in prison (which were suspended) for being a cog in a larger embezzlement scheme in 1985, and at the time of his death, he was the subject of several lawsuits concerning the unpaid bills of his clothing company, JVL Enterprises, Inc.(8)

Even though there are some odd facts surrounding his murder (like the fact that a man like Michael Jordan’s father decided to sleep in his car on the side of a rural highway rather than find a hotel or stay overnight at a friend’s home), there is no real evidence to support a conspiracy. However, the pride Michael felt in his father seeing his last game seemed to be rather fleeting.




Finally he stated, “Now that I’m here, it’s time to be a little bit unselfish in terms of spending more time with my family, my wife, my kids, and just get back to a normal life, as close to it as I can.” When asked, what will he do now, Jordan replied, “In retirement, you do whatever comes to mind. Relax. Enjoy the time you’ve been deprived of for many years.” I guess what came to Michael’s mind was playing baseball. Not spending time with the wife and kids, unless of course they were on the bus with him and the rest of the Birmingham Barons while traveling from small town to smaller town across the Southern US.

Which brings up an interesting point. The only reason Jordan was even given an opportunity to play baseball was because Chicago Bulls’ owner Jerry Reinsdorf also owned the Chicago White Sox. The Barons were an affiliate of the White Sox, so MJ could easily pass through the filters that would’ve normally kept him off the team. Reinsdorf stood to lose as much as anyone with MJ’s retirement (just compare Bulls tickets sales today compared to when MJ played). Yet he was one of the first people Jordan contacted regarding a potential “retirement.” How did Reinsdorf respond? By paying Jordan $4 million and leaving a contractual window open for him to return (9) – even though after being ask would he ever return, Jordan replied, “No – if so, I’d still be playing.”

Let’s face the facts; Jordan was a horrible baseball player. In his one full season in Birmingham, he hit .202 – even with opposing teams' catchers telling him which pitch was coming next. White Sox General Manager Ron Schueler was quoted at the time as saying that Jordan’s chance of making the majors was “a million-to-one shot.” So was he truly living a childhood dream of his to play baseball, or was it something more?

I believe there was more to his minor league career than waving at curve balls. I believe the NBA came to Jordan and laid it out for him. They didn’t want to see him go down for gambling, but at the same time, they couldn’t seem to control him. So they asked him to “retire” and seek some help. Allow the media investigations (if there even were any) to cool down and soon the public will forget all about it. Go play baseball so you can keep in shape and remain at least somewhat in the spotlight. Then, when the time is right, Jordan would be allowed to return to the NBA as the mighty king he once was.

At a certain point in time, Michael Jordan stopped playing by the NBA’s rules and began playing by his own. The NBA, not wanting to upset its cash cow, bent as far as it could to accommodate him. Be it with the lack of foul calls, or limited media access, or getting away with a crime, the NBA was always willing to do it for Michael.

He made a very interesting comment during his retirement press conference. When asked, “will you miss the sport?” he replied: “I’m pretty sure I’ll miss the sport. To come back is a different thought – I can’t answer that. I’m not making this a ‘never’ issue. I’m saying right now I don’t have the mental drive to come out and push myself to play with a certain focus. Five years down the line, if the urge comes back, if the Bulls will have me, if David Stern lets me back in the league, I may come back.(emphasis added)” No reporter there bothered to ask him, why wouldn’t the Commissioner let you back in, Michael? It’s a very interesting choice of words. One that lends itself to a very different interpretation of the situation.

Even during his second (and more formal) retirement, Jordan had to again tip his cap to Stern. In thanking a few people that came before him, Jordan said, “And Mr. Stern and what he’s done for the league and gave me the opportunity to play the game of basketball.” How, exactly, did Stern give him an opportunity to play basketball? By drafting him? By offering him a contract? By putting him in the starting line-up? No. By, as MJ said at his first retirement press conference, letting him back in the league.

Having seen the financial dip the league took post-Jordan retirement, the league wanted him to return. They needed him to return. There was no replacement for Michael Jordan. And after his two-word press release in the middle of the 1994-95 season, which simply stated, “I’m back,” Jordan was. Presumably having put the gambling behind him (the stories, at least), Jordan played another three full seasons with the Bulls, winning the championship in all three.



Conclusions

You may be asking yourself, be you a fan of the game or not, why should I care if Jordan did “retire” on his own accord or if the NBA coerced him? The answer is as simple as it is obvious. If there indeed was more to the Jordan story than reported (as I most certain believe) then the NBA, like many big businesses, is lying to you and covering up the facts. The NBA, with NBC as its partner in crime if you will, isn’t giving us the real deal. They are broadcasting a fairy tale and allowing Michael Jordan to live happily ever after at our expense.

Just take a look at Jordan’s final game, the 1997-98 NBA Championship game against the Utah Jazz. With 5.2 seconds left to go and the Bulls in possession of the ball, to whom do you think they’d look? Michael Jordan, of course. A wide open, nearly unguarded Michael Jordan who not only takes the last, game winning shot, but poses there for the cameras, so that image can be placed on every piece of merchandise the NBA can sell. If the NBA ever conspired to fix one of its own games, that would be the one to most point your finger at. They allowed the man who made the league rich beyond even their greediest expectations to go out on top, in style, and without a hint of controversy standing in the way.

--By Brian Tuohy

Parts of this article and more information on Jordan's gambling past can be found in my book The Fix Is In: The Showbiz Manipulations of the NFL, MLB, NBA, NHL, and NASCAR.

Sources

1 – David Halberstam, Playing for Keeps (Random House, 1999), pg. 317

2 – Armen Keteyian, Harvey Araton, & Martin F. Dardis, Money Players: Days and Nights Inside the New NBA (Pocket Books, 1997), pg. 191

3 – Ibid, pg. 177

4 – Ibid, pg. 196

5 – Halberstam, pg. 321

6 – Keteyian, Araton, & Dardis, pg. 191

7 – Ibid, pg. 196

8 – Ibid, pg. 173

9 – Ibid, pg. 185

Quotes from both Michael Jordan retirement speeches taken from transcripts as published by the Chicago Tribune.

Other quotes and figures taken from various issues of the Chicago Tribune.

More in-depth details on both the Bouler and Esquinas investigations can be found in the book "Money Players" for which this article is indebted.
 
Not reading this whole entire thread but:

Obviously Jordan is above Kobe all-time. What's sick to me is how Jordan transcended the game so much he's become some sort of mythical untouchable hero legend.

I don't think the gap between Kobe and Jordan, or Jordan and whoever is #2/#3 on the all time list is as wide as people make it out to be.
 
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