Least and Most Burned Cornerbacks

[Point Blank]

He's the guy on madden with like 99 spd 99 acc 80 cth and 10 awr right?

 

[Senser81]

The Steelers are running the zone blitz and cover 2, 50% of the time respectively. Half the time they are giving safety help over the top, the other half of the time it's a zone blitz that allows the corners to cover a zone, not 1-on-1.

Is this Yogi Berra math? They allegedly run 2 schemes 50% of the time, yet half the time they are giving safety help over the top and the other half of the time its a zone blitz?

McFadden gets isolated when Polamalu is allowed to play robber and/or Woodley is allowed to rush the edge. And if he's playing a zone where his help is coming from a FS on the other half of the field, an ILB like James Farrior, or a DE trying to drop into the flat, then do you blame McFadden for giving up such a high percentage of completions? McFadden has average athletic ability but he's a good tackler. Thats great for Pittsburgh's scheme, because its designed to make big plays and sack the QB.

 

[Shayn•Da•Pain]

Is this Yogi Berra math? They allegedly run 2 schemes 50% of the time, yet half the time they are giving safety help over the top and the other half of the time its a zone blitz?

The Steelers are running the zone blitz and cover 2, 50% of the time respectively.

<- This means it's 50/50 between the two. You're just not reading it correctly. (respectively is the key adjective.)

In a later post I corrected myself and said it's more Zone Blitz than cover 2, but not by a whole lot. More like a 50/40 split, with a sprinkling of cover 0-1's.

McFadden gets isolated when Polamalu is allowed to play robber and/or Woodley is allowed to rush the edge.

Your understanding of cover 2 is very limited obviously. It seems that you think safeties are the only players who can play deep 1/2 or 'cover 2' however you want to say it.

When Troy "plays robber" a cornerback almost always drops into the deep 1/2 zone, unless it's Timmons. When troy doesn't come up to play robber he's either covering the deep 1/2 or he's covering one of the soft-squat zones. Often times McFadden is the CB that transition back into deep 1/2 responsibility, since Ike is the one who's more than likely going to hang on and cover his WR better. This isn't isolation. McFadden becomes the deep help for anybody covering what's called the soft-squat zone. Unless McFadden himself is in the soft-squat zone, in which case he has help almost all of the time.

And if he's playing a zone where his help is coming from a FS on the other half of the field, an ILB like James Farrior, or a DE trying to drop into the flat, then do you blame McFadden for giving up such a high percentage of completions? McFadden has average athletic ability but he's a good tackler. Thats great for Pittsburgh's scheme, because its designed to make big plays and sack the QB.

So you're saying that McFadden shouldn't be held responsible for allowing completions when he has help?

And you're talking about a linebacker corpse that was pretty damn good in pass coverage. Woodley- 5 PDs, 2 INTs, Harrison- 5 PDs 2 INTs, Farrior 5 PDs, and Timmons- 9 PDs 2 INTs. The help he's getting is there, he just sucks in pass coverage, and I don't know where you're getting the idea that he's ever isolated. He's rarely if ever isolated. He's always got help over the top, or by sharing an overlapped zone with another player.

In zone, he's got help. In cover 2 he is either the help over top or he has help over top. What don't you understand about this?

 

[Shayn•Da•Pain]

Here is a very very basic article explaining the Steelers 'cover 2' scheme a little bit while blitzing. It's actually an article written on the blitz scheme. But it's very basic mind you, and it shows two combinations of cover 2. Again, very simple concept, and the diagrams are easy to understand, so it should be easy enough to understand for a simpleton like Senser.


Found on blitzology.blogspot.com
http://blitzology.blogspot.com/2010/12/blitz-of-week-12.html

Monday, December 13, 2010
Blitz of the Week #12
The welcome back Blitz of the Week is actually 2 blitzes. Both are 5 man "Dogs" from the Pittsburgh Steelers arsenal. Both also utilize Cover 2 as the coverage concept behind them. The first was used by the Steelers two weeks ago in the big showdown with the Ravens.

The concept is a modified version of the tradional NCAA blitz.

* Non-Blitzing Linebackers - Vertical Hook (VH), matching vertical and inside releases
* Corners - Soft Squat
* Safeties- Deep 1/2

Video of this pressure can be seen here. Based on the eyes of the Nose (#96), I think he has a spy technique on the back releasing on screen.

The 2nd Cover 2 in this post was used by the Steelers against the Bengals this week.

The pressure concept is very similar to #1 but without the long stick.

* Left DE (or OLB depending on how you classify him) - Stand up 3 tech, drop Vertical Hook
* Tackle - 3 technique, working weak to balance the pass rush
* Non-Blitzing Backer - Sugared alignment near LOS over the Nose, drop Vertical Hook
* Down Safety - Curl-Flat (acts like a soft squat corner)
* Deep Safety and Weak Corner - Deep 1/2
* Strong Corner - Soft Squat

Video of this pressure is available here.

The coverage behind both pressures is almost man under 2 deep in nature. In both pressures it appears the DL (#96) that is looping away from the pressure to balance the pass rush also has his eyes on the RB as a weak side spy.

This was just two combinations of the steelers 'cover 2'. Very simple. Very easy to understand. But you can see how there could be a ton of different combinations of cover 2, just as long as you have any 2 players in deep 1/2 responsibility. The beauty of this defense is QB's don't know what coverage combination, zone combination, blitz combination, or if it will be a cover 2 or zone blitz scheme coming next.

I posted this for you Senser, to show you that even if Troy Polamalu were to leave the cover 2 or deep 1/2 responsibility, that doesn't mean the Steelers aren't in cover 2. This also does not mean McFadden is isolated.

 

[Aso]

Here is the 09 game of Steelers vs Packers from more of an aerial angle showing each play twice.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBpNJbgbfAA[/ame]

All of the parts are in there :shifty:


The first few plays do look like cover 1

 

[Senser81]

Here is the 09 game of Steelers vs Packers from more of an aerial angle showing each play twice.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBpNJbgbfAA

All of the parts are in there :shifty:


The first few plays do look like cover 1

This is great. Seems like Clark is playing cover 1, while one of the CBs is isolated against one of the WRs for a large part of the field. I think it was Shayn that pooh-poohed my notion that Ryan Clark is one of the most irreplaceable guys on the Steelers D, because he has a ton of responsibility.

I'm going to go through the whole tape tomorrow and post my comments.

 

[Aso]

This is great. Seems like Clark is playing cover 1, while one of the CBs is isolated against one of the WRs for a large part of the field. I think it was Shayn that pooh-poohed my notion that Ryan Clark is one of the most irreplaceable guys on the Steelers D, because he has a ton of responsibility.

I'm going to go through the whole tape tomorrow and post my comments.

I'll be looking forward to your comments.

 

[Senser81]

<- This means it's 50/50 between the two. You're just not reading it correctly. (respectively is the key adjective.)

I don't know whats more retarded...your point or how you said it. Your point is the Steelers play either cover 2 or zone blitz 100% of the time, which is obviously retarded and was disproven on the very first play of Aso's Steeler-Packer video. To use the term "respectively" is also retarded when you could just say "the Steelers play cover 2 or zone blitz 100% of the time.

Your understanding of cover 2 is very limited obviously. It seems that you think safeties are the only players who can play deep 1/2 or 'cover 2' however you want to say it.

No, I understand the cover 2. I just don't think the Steelers play it 50% of the time. And if a CB has deep zone responsibility in a Cover 2, then that is a big responsibility.

When Troy "plays robber" a cornerback almost always drops into the deep 1/2 zone, unless it's Timmons.

What on earth are you talking about? Unless its Timmons? Did you use the "respectively" adjective again?

And you're talking about a linebacker corpse that was pretty damn good in pass coverage. Woodley- 5 PDs, 2 INTs, Harrison- 5 PDs 2 INTs, Farrior 5 PDs, and Timmons- 9 PDs 2 INTs. The help he's getting is there, he just sucks in pass coverage, and I don't know where you're getting the idea that he's ever isolated. He's rarely if ever isolated. He's always got help over the top, or by sharing an overlapped zone with another player.

His help is coming from the furthest away places (DE, ILB, FS on far side of field). Its schematic. LOL at listing INTs as proof that McFadden gets help...but this is coming from the guy who is just learning that DeAngelo Hall might be a tad bit overrated.

 

[Woy]

15 INTERCEPTIONS!

 

[Shayn•Da•Pain]

Here is the 09 game of Steelers vs Packers from more of an aerial angle showing each play twice.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBpNJbgbfAA

All of the parts are in there :shifty:


The first few plays do look like cover 1

Two quick thoughts before I go through this tape.

1: it's a snapshot of one game. The game plan vs Rodgers might have been cover 1 man the whole game, I don't know, haven't looked through it. I'll bet still that there are zone blitzes most of the time and McFadden will rarely be isolated without zone help around him.

2: It doesn't change the fact that Dick LeBeau himself said, "For the last three years, we've been close to a 50-percent 'Cover 2' team." in this article. <-link. The article is from '07, but the steelers defense hasn't changed much over the last 4 years. It's still the same concepts with some tweaks.

 

I wish somebody would change the color of URL's so we can tell if there is a link present or not.

 

[Shayn•Da•Pain]

I don't know whats more retarded...your point or how you said it. Your point is the Steelers play either cover 2 or zone blitz 100% of the time, which is obviously retarded and was disproven on the very first play of Aso's Steeler-Packer video. To use the term "respectively" is also retarded when you could just say "the Steelers play cover 2 or zone blitz 100% of the time.

A point to which I corrected myself two posts later, to more of a 50/40%.

BTW, in those first two plays, those were zone blitzing schemes. Watch them again. LB's blitz, More LB's drop into zone coverage, McFadden was not isolated without help coming from the zones around him and/or safety help over top. Don't get yourself confused by watching one player. zone blitz = I'm still correct sir.

No, I understand the cover 2. I just don't think the Steelers play it 50% of the time. And if a CB has deep zone responsibility in a Cover 2, then that is a big responsibility.

Dick LeBaeu Himself said they do and he runs the defense. Check my previous post on the article above.

What on earth are you talking about? Unless its Timmons? Did you use the "respectively" adjective again?

Meant to say Taylor. When Troy plays "robber" one of the other corners typically takes deep responsibility on cover 2 schemes. Not on zone blitz packages mind you, which are not the same as cover 2 schemes.

His help is coming from the furthest away places (DE, ILB, FS on far side of field). Its schematic. LOL at listing INTs as proof that McFadden gets help...but this is coming from the guy who is just learning that DeAngelo Hall might be a tad bit overrated.

Back up a second jerky, everybody knew how overrated Hall was when the Falcons cut ties with him, and even worse when the Raiders did the same thing. I just didn't realize he was in the bottom tier of CB play. I didn't realize he was shit-stick bad as a DB. Overrated, yes I know that much. Keep grasping straws.

LOL at you calling out my football knowledge and you don't recognize a zone blitz when you see it. lulz

 

[Shayn•Da•Pain]

Here is the 09 game of Steelers vs Packers from more of an aerial angle showing each play twice.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBpNJbgbfAA

All of the parts are in there :shifty:


The first few plays do look like cover 1

I didn't congratulate you on the find BTW. my bad. Great video. It's really cool to watch game film this way. The same play twice, from two different angles. I don't care what the video proves, it was a good find. +1

 

[Aso]

I didn't congratulate you on the find BTW. my bad. Great video. It's really cool to watch game film this way. The same play twice, from two different angles. I don't care what the video proves, it was a good find. +1

Yeah well, ya know, I try.:shakehands:

I do think you have a case though. But I think it's more short help which is help indeed and does make his job easier.

 

[inthecards21]

Regardless of how Steelers play their zones, if you get burned 66% of the time, you suck ass

 

[Shayn•Da•Pain]

Yeah well, ya know, I try.:shakehands:

I do think you have a case though. But I think it's more short help which is help indeed and does make his job easier.

+1

That's the point of the scheme I think. You get it. I don't think I have to go into all the ways to work a zone blitz scheme, but the important part is that you have a defender over the top that try's not to get beat, with zone help under/around him...in effect surrounding the receiver with 2-3 defenders. Not double/triple covering him, just 2-3 defenders in zone, within striking distance from the target if the ball is thrown there.

You get it though.

 

[Senser81]

2: It doesn't change the fact that Dick LeBeau himself said, "For the last three years, we've been close to a 50-percent 'Cover 2' team." in this article. <-link. The article is from '07, but the steelers defense hasn't changed much over the last 4 years. It's still the same concepts with some tweaks.

 

I wish somebody would change the color of URL's so we can tell if there is a link present or not.

"If we're going to go to 'Cover 2,' we'll only have four rushers. If we're going to a zone-pressure (zone-blitz), we'll have five or more. But we can still play some '2' coverage concepts behind a five-man rush."

This is the pertinent part. You don't understand the Cover 2.

A pure Cover 2 has the CBs rolled up and the safeties playing over the top, so the CB can play an aggressive short zone and he always has deep help. Ronde Barber of Tampa has made a career out of being physical with WRs for a 10 yard area, playing the run well, etc. because he always has help deep. The Steelers DO NOT do this 50% of the time. The '2' coverage concept just means they have two guys deep. The Steelers will have an ILB or a DE or a SS play the short coverage, then expect the CB on that side to drop back and play the deep half. Meaning that the CB has no help, and much of the time will have a weak-in-coverage ILB or DE playing in front of him.

 

[Senser81]

Back up a second jerky, everybody knew how overrated Hall was when the Falcons cut ties with him, and even worse when the Raiders did the same thing. I just didn't realize he was in the bottom tier of CB play. I didn't realize he was shit-stick bad as a DB. Overrated, yes I know that much. Keep grasping straws.

This is just like when you would go off on a tangent complaining about Troy Polamalu getting dissed when we were discussing Matthews v. Harrison.

No response to my statement "His help is coming from the furthest away places (DE, ILB, FS on far side of field)"? Its unbelieveable. And you had just said "McFadden was not isolated without help coming from the zones around him and/or safety help over top", as if this somehow disproves what I am saying...which it obviously doesn't. As I've said numerous times now, the Steeler CB's have a lot of coverage responsibility, even in their zone schemes.

Honestly, is this your first year of watching the Steelers? When I say McFadden gets isolated in coverage, do I have to show some film of the 10 other Steeler players running off the field at the snap of the ball?

 

[Senser81]

I'll be looking forward to your comments.

I got through the first 15 plays. Here is the coverage breakdown, with specific attention being paid to Ike Taylor:

1) Cover 1, Taylor (#24) isolated on far side of field, Woodley playing flat zone in front
2) Cover 1, #24 isolated on near side of field w/no help
3) Cover 1, #24 blitzes on near side of field
4) Cover 1, #24 has short responsibility on near side but no WRs, CB gets isolated deep
5) Delay
6) Cover 1, #24 isolated on near side of field w/no help
7) Cover 1 w/Carter playing deep and Clark moving up, #24 has man coverage on Finley
8) First 2-deep coverage I’ve seen all game, running play
9) Run
10) 2-deep (NOT Cover 2), and Timmons gets stuck in Man coverage underneath on Jennings, TD
11) First true Cover 2 play of the game, running play
12) Cover 1, running play
13) Cover 1 robber, #24 isolated on near side of field
14) Cover 1, #24 isolated on near side of field
15) Cover 2, #24 has short zone on near side of field


It basically shows what people have seen from the Steelers for years. Ryan Clark was the only person with deep help on 9 of the 15 plays. The Steelers were usually blitzing LBs and/or DBs a vast majority of the time. Only 2 of the 15 plays were actually true "Cover 2" plays, with the safeties playing deep and the CBs and LBs playing short zones in front of them. Only 2 other plays actually had 2-deep coverage, with Clark and Carter deep and man underneath. This actually led to the only successful Packers play (and a TD), because Timmons got stuck on Greg Jennings. Taylor was isolated most of the time in man coverage on a WR with only Clark as his deep help.

Not really surprising to me, but its nice to have your "opinion" validated by the game film.

 

[Saluki]

That all being said. Getting beat on nearly 7 out of every 10 plays looks pretty bad on him. Help or no help.

 

[Senser81]

That all being said. Getting beat on nearly 7 out of every 10 plays looks pretty bad on him. Help or no help.

I didn't see McFadden give up a completion in those first 15 plays, so the game was obviously from 2009.