MMA HOF

[Steel Mamba]

just by mamba talking about sak not ever being number 1 'in his division' shows he has no clue about the era, I dont even want to debate it after him saying that, no point

I guess if you only have to be good over a span of 3 years in an org that wanted you to win, then it makes sense.

 

[EmpireWF]

Shinya Aoki - Say what you will about him being one-dimensional, but you have to throw him in. He's had amazing run against top talent in their primes that if any other fighter had, he'd be a shoe-in and arguable LW GOAT. He's beaten Uno, Hansen, Shaolin, Alvarez, Kawajiri, Rumina Sato, and Kitaoka. Just because he lost to Gilbert Melendez (who is an elite fighter in his own right) in his stateside debut doesn't override all the other accolades,

Is Aoki an automatic?

He's been the best 155er in Japan, but there wasn't a single time he was considered THE best in the world. If we're looking at regionally to itself, I guess his case his much stronger since he has run through Hansen, Shaolin, Alvarez, Kawajiri and JZ. Just JMMA being depressed hte past few years brings him down a bit.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

I'm struggling with Tito.

And Franklin has a real sneaky resume. He never lost to a bum, but doesn't have enough big wins.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

I guess if you only have to be good over a span of 3 years in an org that wanted you to win, then it makes sense.

Are you implying he was protected??

He literally fought everybody lol.

 

[EmpireWF]

I'm struggling with Tito.

And Franklin has a real sneaky resume. He never lost to a bum, but doesn't have enough big wins.

Franklin beat Chuck, Wand and Shammy when they were old. Is his biggest win Tanner?

No go.


Tito is interesting. You would imagine a shoe in. But he had two big runs. 2000-2002 and then Cote-Belfort-Forrest.

Never beat Couture, Chuck or Frank.

I could go either way, I'm leaning no though.

 

[Steel Mamba]

Are you implying he was protected??

He literally fought everybody lol.

Doesn't matter, he dominated for a few years and that was it. Take Saku in his prime and where would he fall today?

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

Doesn't matter, he dominated for a few years and that was it. Take Saku in his prime and where would he fall today?

Doesn't really matter, you can only compare guys to their contemporaries. Especially in a sport like MMA that has evolved so quickly.

It would be like saying Otto Graham or YA Title don't belong in the Pro Football HOF because they wouldn't start on an NFL team today. Makes no sense and is 100% irrelevant.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

I mean, you can send any UFC mid carder back in time to 1996 and they would dominate. Who cares?

 

[SHOGUN]

Is Aoki an automatic?

He's been the best 155er in Japan, but there wasn't a single time he was considered THE best in the world. If we're looking at regionally to itself, I guess his case his much stronger since he has run through Hansen, Shaolin, Alvarez, Kawajiri and JZ. Just JMMA being depressed hte past few years brings him down a bit.

I think he is automatic because on accomplishments alone, he's right behind Gomi and Penn.

I agree that his most recent competition has been weak (Clementi, McCullough, Sithoar), but the bulk of his reign was when Japan still had several quality guys in their primes. Prior to losing to Melendez, Aoki had beaten the most ranked fighters out of anybody regardless of weight class in the past five years. His strength of schedule is hard to deny.

 

[LiquidLarry2GhostWF]

No Tito?

 

[Liquidrob]

Tito was like the 4th best LHW in his era if that, Wand, Shogun and Chuck were better, throw in Hendo and Rampage, Hendo might have been MW at that time, can't remember, but you get the picture

Even in the UFC, he fought blown up MWs, they protected him from chuck who probably fought better guys

 

[Liquidrob]

You mean the prime Sak that was 185 lbs without even cutting, who had one of the best single legs ever, subbed numerous bjj BB's that have never been subbed, the guy who had cardio to last an hour and 30 minute fight, the guy who outstruck Vitor and constantly fought guys 20, 30, 50 lbs heavier?

Yeah, that guy wouldnt do well in any era, also he wouldnt be able to last with the dominate UFC MW's of his day like Tanner, Baroni, Menne, Suloev and Lindland, Sak was protected in Japan fighting everyone and agreeing to special rules fights with Royce, throw in battling guys like Igor, Wand and Rampage

LOL, if you dont think Saku is a MMA HOF Legend than you don't understand NHB/MMA of that era and what was going on, Saku was considered the best P4P fighter in thr sport for years a long with Frank, true HOFers in every sense of the word

 

[Liquidrob]

ITS A BEAUTIFUL DAY MFERS

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kLTE2mUmX-Q&feature=results_video&playnext=1&list=PL10C34AFFBCC17478"]Kazushi Sakuraba Highlight Video "The Gracie Hunter" - YouTube[/ame]

DONT LET IT GET AWAY

 

[Steel Mamba]

You mean the prime Sak that was 185 lbs without even cutting, who had one of the best single legs ever, subbed numerous bjj BB's that have never been subbed, the guy who had cardio to last an hour and 30 minute fight, the guy who outstruck Vitor and constantly fought guys 20, 30, 50 lbs heavier?

Yeah, that guy wouldnt do well in any era, also he wouldnt be able to last with the dominate UFC MW's of his day like Tanner, Baroni, Menne, Suloev and Lindland, Sak was protected in Japan fighting everyone and agreeing to special rules fights with Royce, throw in battling guys like Igor, Wand and Rampage

LOL, if you dont think Saku is a MMA HOF Legend than you don't understand NHB/MMA of that era and what was going on, Saku was considered the best P4P fighter in thr sport for years a long with Frank, true HOFers in every sense of the word

W2B flip floppin by thanking that post.

Anyway what happened post 2000?

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

W2B flip floppin by thanking that post.

Anyway what happened post 2000?

LOL, where is the flip flop?

 

[calgaryballer]

Bas is my guy, so I have to vote yes on him (wearing his shirt right now )

Lost to the Shamrocks (avenged Frank twice, though one was uber close and the other was a cut) and then went on a 21 fight win streak. He was too early for the UFC, but when he came he took the title. Tried to drop to MW, but blew out his knee and saw his career come to an end. Still had enough in the tank to crush Warpath 7 year later though.

What really sells Bas for me, is how easy Pancrase was for him. He had to invent challenges to keep fights going longer and to try and test himself. Perhaps if he came to the UFC earlier, he doesn't have the same success. But if Bas wanted a fight ended (save for perhaps Frank/Ken) it was going to end and it was going to end on his terms

His fights with Delucia and the obvious disdain he held for him cracks me up. End of the third fight, when Delucia is trying to cheat, Bas gets so angry

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EWi0v6UnoUM"]Bas Rutten vs Jason Delucia (their 3rd fight) - YouTube[/ame]

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x82fw_bas-rutten-vs-masakatsu-funaki_sport

 

[KINGOFOOTBALL]

A. How picky do you get ? I prefer true greatness over very good and famous.

B. Since you're going back to the beginning historic fights and notoriety have to weigh heavy.(saku and Tito are locks with this.)

C. How do you judge guys like Vitor who come in as prodigys shake up the sport so young but never have the career you think they do ? Vitor = Sayers/Terrell Davis ?

D. What about amazing fighters with amazing resumes who simply were overshadowed by a true GOAT ? CroCop = Thurman Thomas ?

E.What about enigmas like B.J Penn who reached top levels but never as dominant as they could or should have been and remain underachievers ?

 

[EmpireWF]

A. How picky do you get ? I prefer true greatness over very good and famous.

B. Since you're going back to the beginning historic fights and notoriety have to weigh heavy.(saku and Tito are locks with this.)

C. How do you judge guys like Vitor who come in as prodigys shake up the sport so young but never have the career you think they do ? Vitor = Sayers/Terrell Davis ?

D. What about amazing fighters with amazing resumes who simply were overshadowed by a true GOAT ? CroCop = Thurman Thomas ?

E.What about enigmas like B.J Penn who reached top levels but never as dominant as they could or should have been and remain underachievers ?

warner said the only thing under consideration is their fighting. Nothing towards being famous or a draw.

Which is why Tito is questionable.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

I'm going with the idea that it's a straight sports HOF where only the athletic accomplishments matter. The rest of the criteria is up to you guys, which is where the debates come in.

 

[EmpireWF]

It's amazing to me that the aura around Belfort is still there strictly from his first three fights in the UFC.

It's been nearly 15 years and he hasn't impressed to that degree since.