Moss or TO?

[FirstTimer]

He was expected to be the star offensive player for every team he inked his name down for, even Minny 2 and Tennessee.

No he wasn't.

No one in their right mind expected Moss to be the star in those last two deals. He was clearly seen as a risk and a bit of a reclamation project.

Nice try at revising history though.

The Raiders

You keep saying this and it's idiotic because Moss was damn good for them for one season and then teh next year when he was getting thrown balls from 6'4" turds is when it went bad.

The next year Moss goes out and has maybe the 2nd best year in NFL history for a WR. Dumping all the blame on Moss for his failings in Oakland runs coutner to everything we know about the dysfunctional shithole Oakland was at the time.


Just stop.

I just question his reliability over Owens

Yeah, nothing more reliable than a guy who destroys locker rooms on the regular like TO did at pretty much every stop except Cincy. Hell there were numerous years where peopel weren;t sure if he'd be in camp because of contract issues. Reliable!

I can do this all day.

When Moss wasn't catching passes from Andrew Walter and as long as it wasn't 2010...he was very damn good.

In either case neither were choir boys so splitting hairs over it is missing the point by a mile. Even if you give TO the "better teammate/reliable" advantage by whatever slim margin you want to........it still cant gloss over the fact that Moss was superemely the more talented of the two, had better hands, and had better peak seasons by a wider margin than TO who was the better teammate or "more reliable". :yao:

 

[Senser81]

He was expected to be the star offensive player for every team he inked his name down for, even Minny 2 and Tennessee. The Raiders, shitty Vikings and Titans didn't receive what they thought they signed up for, and I think that is pretty important information when choosing who you would rather have play his career for your team.

With his age it's pretty evident he'd be on the decline. I'm not on his case for putting up weaker numbers with the 2010 Titans than he did with the 98 Vikings. That's not really what i'm saying. I just question his reliability over Owens, not his athleticism.

I feel like Moss is a bigger gamble in the long run. (Not that either would hamper a team)

Again, it makes no sense.

Its not Moss' fault that he was expected to star on both the 2010 Vikings and the 2010 Titans. And I don't think either team expected him to star...they took a chance, it didn't work out. Neither team mortgaged their future to get him, and the only reason the Vikes took him was to boost their lagging ticket sales at the end of the Childress era.

Would you say that Emmitt Smith was less reliable than Fred Taylor, because Emmitt signed 3 contracts and underperformed on two of them, whereas Taylor signed 2 contracts and underperformed on only one?

 

[West]

2 firsttimer-

mostly an accurate analysis, but its not entirely fair to say that TO singlehandidly annihilated every locker room he ever played for, while the only thing Moss ever did wrong was play with andrew walter

 

[FirstTimer]

mostly an accurate analysis, but its not entirely fair to say that TO singlehandidly annihilated every locker room he ever played for,

Who else was involved in this wide ranging locker room conspiracy then?

while the only thing Moss ever did wrong was play with andrew walter

That's not what I said or implied.

 

[West]

i'm high and entirely indifferent and just trying to play devils advocate so people post in my thread

you guys are rude, im going back to the baseball forum

 

[FirstTimer]

i'm high

Oh VSD.

 

[Golden Taters]

A black guy named Randy lol

 

[West]

A black guy named Randy lol

the real randy of sports

 

[Senser81]

i'm high and entirely indifferent and just trying to play devils advocate so people post in my thread

you guys are rude, im going back to the baseball forum

 

[killgod]

That's all I read. /shrug

 

[KINGOFOOTBALL]

As an Eagles fan watching him in 2004 he made a good offense great, but then made a great locker room bad a year later. But '04 was a great year, and Owens was the biggest part of it. You also have to include coming back from a fractured fibula to play in the SB weekd before he was supposed to be back and play well, something Moss would never do. While he had his problems off the field, it's hard to argue that almost everywhere he went he made his offense better, something Moss can not say.

Huh ?

The two greatest offenses of all time.
3 MVP caliber QB seasons (including Bradys record breaking MVP season)
Resurrecting guys like Cunningham and George and making Culpepper look like superman isnt making teams better ?


Owens shows no significant effect of either raising or declining a teams offensive success as team rankings stay pretty much what youd expect before or after his arrival.
Moss in Minny and N.E caused 200 point surges in offense. That flirts with retarded.

Owens is damn good. Hes a TD machine , unmatched at the LOS. But frankly he struggled early in his career against good CBs , he dropped waaaay too many easy plays and botched a number of key plays in important games. He is what he is. Id still take Holt over him given the time span.


Bottom line its Moss. Best weapon on a football field possibly ever. At worst that conversation is 5-6 players long and hes easily one of them. His rookie year and 2007 season are unparalleled examples of a guy who's physically superior to every other human on the field.

Mentally ?

They both suck. But lost in time is the fact these two homos had the two WORST situations possible being on the same team with the two biggest primadonnas of there time in Rice/Carter along with two of the pansiest let guys do what they want coaches in Green and Mariucci. Not to mention the beginning of the post Deion era where ESPN was hyping every selfish retarded act as if it was cool rebellion. Thats a nasty combo.

Make them both 21 again either is worth no.1 pick in the NFL draft so long as your coach isnt a dumbass and the QB can throw mildly accurate. But Moss is the no brainer every time.

 

[Senser81]

They both suck. But lost in time is the fact these two homos had the two WORST situations possible being on the same team with the two biggest primadonnas of there time in Rice/Carter along with two of the pansiest let guys do what they want coaches in Green and Mariucci. Not to mention the beginning of the post Deion era where ESPN was hyping every selfish retarded act as if it was cool rebellion. Thats a nasty combo.

This is a great point. Cris Carter was the worst person to have mentor a WR. He was the whiniest WR in NFL history. I never understood how people/ESPN would give Carter CREDIT for mentoring Randy Moss...not only was Carter a terrible person, the proof was in the pudding in that Moss was also one of the biggest jerks of his generation.

Rice wasn't as bad as Carter because he wasn't as "demonstrative" on the field, but he was also a huge primadonna.

 

[shag773]

Huh ?

The two greatest offenses of all time.
3 MVP caliber QB seasons (including Bradys record breaking MVP season)
Resurrecting guys like Cunningham and George and making Culpepper look like superman isnt making teams better ?

I never said he wasn't a great player, he had a ton of success everywhere he went except for 2010. My problem with him is that he quit ON THE FIELD for every organization he ever played for in the end. TO never quit on a team as far as I know. He's been thrown off teams, but never quit.

Owens shows no significant effect of either raising or declining a teams offensive success as team rankings stay pretty much what youd expect before or after his arrival.

Look at the offensive passing numbers before he got to Philly, Dallas, and Cincy and tell me if you still stand behind that comment.

Id still take Holt over him given the time span.

I would take Holt over both of them.

Mentally ?

They both suck. But lost in time is the fact these two homos had the two WORST situations possible being on the same team with the two biggest primadonnas of there time in Rice/Carter along with two of the pansiest let guys do what they want coaches in Green and Mariucci. Not to mention the beginning of the post Deion era where ESPN was hyping every selfish retarded act as if it was cool rebellion. Thats a nasty combo.

Agreed

Make them both 21 again either is worth no.1 pick in the NFL draft so long as your coach isnt a dumbass and the QB can throw mildly accurate. But Moss is the no brainer every time.

If you're objective is to set passing records then yes they are worth a number 1 pick. If it's to win a Super Bowl, keep the number 1 pick and draft a lineman...

 

[KINGOFOOTBALL]

I never said he wasn't a great player, he had a ton of success everywhere he went except for 2010. My problem with him is that he quit ON THE FIELD for every organization he ever played for in the end. TO never quit on a team as far as I know. He's been thrown off teams, but never quit.

End result is the same. Neither guys character is helping a team , both hurt teams. Both have taken already good teams to the SB so you can win with either guy. If your team is struggling a guy quitting on a play is just as shitty as a guy going 100% to showboat then bitching about his teammates in the locker room.
I addressed the character part as I dont think they entered the league as it being inevitable.

Look at the offensive passing numbers before he got to Philly, Dallas, and Cincy and tell me if you still stand behind that comment.

Passing numbers alone dont make a team better. Points scored and records > Passing yards.
15-1 , 16-0...best offense of all time ...then again best offense of all time.
You tell me what other player has ever had that immediate an impact arriving on two seperate teams.
Yes as any great WR would , TO had a tremendous impact on the passing game and Xs Os. But improving passing numbers isnt the same as a franchise having record settings and all time great seasons. I mean 31-1 ???

TO doesnt compare few players in NFL history compare.

I would take Holt over both of them.

:thumbsup:

Agreed

:thumbsup:

If you're objective is to set passing records then yes they are worth a number 1 pick. If it's to win a Super Bowl, keep the number 1 pick and draft a lineman..

Unless its Munoz , or Boselli ill gladly take those guys. Nice to know Ill have someone willing to trade up a spot and give me an extra first next year.
:smug:

 

[mgoblue2290]

Moss easily. Probably the most dominant receiver to ever play the game. Could've had nearly every receiving record if he put forth more effort.

 

[West]

so i entered my first vsn sports debate of my career

got denied by senser

totaled my car 15 minutes later

lesson learned, VSN gods. lesson learned

 

[shag773]

End result is the same. Neither guys character is helping a team , both hurt teams. Both have taken already good teams to the SB so you can win with either guy. If your team is struggling a guy quitting on a play is just as shitty as a guy going 100% to showboat then bitching about his teammates in the locker room.I addressed the character part as I dont think they entered the league as it being inevitable.

I guess we'll agree to disagree there. Not that I've spent a bunch of time with NFL players, but I would think they would rather play with a guy that plays every down at TO's level in his prime.

Passing numbers alone dont make a team better. Points scored and records > Passing yards.
15-1 , 16-0...best offense of all time ...then again best offense of all time.
You tell me what other player has ever had that immediate an impact arriving on two seperate teams.
Yes as any great WR would , TO had a tremendous impact on the passing game and Xs Os. But improving passing numbers isnt the same as a franchise having record settings and all time great seasons. I mean 31-1 ???

TO doesnt compare few players in NFL history compare.

My comment was solely in response to this

Owens shows no significant effect of either raising or declining a teams offensive success as team rankings stay pretty much what youd expect before or after his arrival.

I was assuming you were talking about offensive rankings, which did show some significant improvement at his arrival. BTW, the regular season numbers Moss put up in NE were extraordinary. Playoffs were another story. In fact, he didn't have a 100 yard receiving performance past January 2001.

Unless its Munoz , or Boselli ill gladly take those guys. Nice to know Ill have someone willing to trade up a spot and give me an extra first next year.
:smug:

I don't put a lot of value in receivers like Moss and TO in regards to putting together a SB team. I'd much rather spend my money somewhere else.

 

[Golden Taters]

so i entered my first vsn sports debate of my career

got denied by senser

totaled my car 15 minutes later

lesson learned, VSN gods. lesson learned

lolatlas

 

[RainboUnicorn]

I don't think T.O. gets enough credit. I believe he is underrated a little bit. I think it's closer than people think. For everybody saying how Moss had that unbelievable year with the Patriots, do you remember who his quarterback was? And if I recall correctly that QB set a record for TD passes as well.

To be honest I voted for Owens based on the fact that it should be closer than it is. But I would probably take Moss over Owens in general.

If it was today I would take Owens because I still think he can play very well.

 

[Sharkweather]

A black guy named Randy lol