Most overrated player in baseball

[FedEx227]

We then Beltre (my starting Fantasy 3rd baseman, his 90 million dollar deal and .095svg) is OVER-RATED clap-clap----clap-clap-clap

He got paid, everyone and their mother knows he cocoons immediately after signing a contract.

 

[NAHSTE]

FedEx, this might be more of a Lefty question, but how much more valuable would Ichiro's glove be at CF? It seems like you're expecting corner-bat production out of him, a high OBP but with that more Ks. But isn't his glove worth a few runs a year also that the you don't get by sticking a high SLG but crappy fielding guy like Aubrey Huff out there?

Let's say Ichiro - or Crawford for that matter - were an everyday center fielder, would you consider him an elite player then?

 

[BigHouseUSA]

Just read through this thread. Quality baseball discussion, guys. That is all.

 

[manchild24]

I dont think Howard is over rated. Yeah these contract are crazy, but I saw an interesting stat during the game last night. He is one of four players to hit 40 HRs and 130rbi in four consecutive seasons (Babe, Jr, Sosa-doesnt mean shit since he was a juicer)

Cut down on the strikes and stop chasing the two strike slider down and away

 

[SethMode]

Well he's had more runners on base in front of him then any other player in MLB the last 4 years as well. He needs to get better on the basepaths. Everyone knows he's slow, but he's cost them 16 runs making mistakes.

Sam Perlazzo had his hand in a lot of those as well. He was this werid blend of "I want to be aggressive, but I'm also kind of wishy-washy" over at 3rd.

As I said in the 1B thread, I've watched at least 90% of the games that Howard has played in, and I'd say he's most definitely not overrated. He's great already, has a great work ethic, loves the game, and is always looking to improve in all aspects. This has been the case even moreso AFTER he signed his big contract. He's like the Bizarro Beltre.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

Well he's had more runners on base in front of him then any other player in MLB the last 4 years as well. He needs to get better on the basepaths. Everyone knows he's slow, but he's cost them 16 runs making mistakes.

I hate that argument. You still have to get the hit, you still have to drive in the run.

Yes, it is somewhat a product of your teammates, but the runners in front of you don't bring themselves home. I mean, he drives himself home 40+ times.

RBI are not a product of happenstance like some would have you believe. You are doing something right if you drive in 130+ every year.

You have instances where somebody like Preston Wilson has an abnormal RBI season in Colorado or something, but you can put Ryan Howard in any lineup, from Philly to Seattle, and he will drive in runs.

 

[mcstl25]

I hate that argument. You still have to get the hit, you still have to drive in the run.

Yes, it is somewhat a product of your teammates, but the runners in front of you don't bring themselves home. I mean, he drives himself home 40+ times.

RBI are not a product of happenstance like some would have you believe. You are doing something right if you drive in 130+ every year.

You have instances where somebody like Preston Wilson has an abnormal RBI season in Colorado or something, but you can put Ryan Howard in any lineup, from Philly to Seattle, and he will drive in runs.

Completely agree. I love sabermetrics, but numbers have their limits. The one aspect of sabermetrics that I completely disagree with is that clutch hitting, and thus RBIs, is a by-product of the players teammates.

After reading through the last few pages, I'm no more convinced that Ichiro is even close to overrated. The guy does everything you could ever want in a leadoff hitter who plays the outfield. The only area he lacks is power, which isn't a must have for a leadoff hitter. After looking at the list of $18m plus salary earners, I'm not sure how anyone could make the argument that he's overpaid either. He's an elite leadoff hitter and outfielder.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

Completely agree. I love sabermetrics, but numbers have their limits. The one aspect of sabermetrics that I completely disagree with is that clutch hitting, and thus RBIs, is a by-product of the players teammates.

After reading through the last few pages, I'm no more convinced that Ichiro is even close to overrated. The guy does everything you could ever want in a leadoff hitter who plays the outfield. The only area he lacks is power, which isn't a must have for a leadoff hitter. After looking at the list of $18m plus salary earners, I'm not sure how anyone could make the argument that he's overpaid either. He's an elite leadoff hitter and outfielder.

FedEx is saying that Ichiro is overrated in the sense that he is considered a superstar, but to him, he is not on that level. I get where he is coming from, in terms of Ichiro not being an elite run producer, although I dont really agree with the thought process. Throw in the fact that the guy is an elite baserunner and ++ fielder, and I think he's easily been one of the best players in the league for a long time.

Lanteri never came back in the thread to defend himself, but i'm assuming he is following the same train of thought.

 

[Lanteri]

FedEx is saying that Ichiro is overrated in the sense that he is considered a superstar, but to him, he is not on that level. I get where he is coming from, in terms of Ichiro not being an elite run producer, although I dont really agree with the thought process. Throw in the fact that the guy is an elite baserunner and ++ fielder, and I think he's easily been one of the best players in the league for a long time.

Lanteri never came back in the thread to defend himself, but i'm assuming he is following the same train of thought.

I sent FedEx to do my bidding.

 

[mcstl25]

FedEx is saying that Ichiro is overrated in the sense that he is considered a superstar, but to him, he is not on that level. I get where he is coming from, in terms of Ichiro not being an elite run producer, although I dont really agree with the thought process. Throw in the fact that the guy is an elite baserunner and ++ fielder, and I think he's easily been one of the best players in the league for a long time.

Lanteri never came back in the thread to defend himself, but i'm assuming he is following the same train of thought.

Yeah, I get that, but using this criteria, only top OPS guys (meaning power hitters) could be considered elite offensive players. I don't agree with that logic.

 

[SethMode]

Yeah, I get that, but using this criteria, only top OPS guys (meaning power hitters) could be considered elite offensive players. I don't agree with that logic.

It's often crappy too because I feel like guys that rely too much on OPS are the same guys that would crap on Howard because he gets a lot of RBI. When if Ichiro batted in front of Howard...holy crap I think I just came in my pants.

 

[FirstTimer]

All those singles woul dbe a hell of a lot more valuable if he had anyone hitting behind him. If he played in NY, Boston, Chicago etc no one would care he only hits singles. They be creaming over how he is setting runs scored records.

It's often crappy too because I feel like guys that rely too much on OPS are the same guys that would crap on Howard because he gets a lot of RBI. When if Ichiro batted in front of Howard...holy crap I think I just came in my pants.

I KNEW IT!

 

[FedEx227]

It's often crappy too because I feel like guys that rely too much on OPS are the same guys that would crap on Howard because he gets a lot of RBI. When if Ichiro batted in front of Howard...holy crap I think I just came in my pants.

Nobody craps on anyone for getting RBIs it's not a bad thing lol... it's just a poor way to compare or judge players.

 

[SethMode]

Nobody craps on anyone for getting RBIs it's not a bad thing lol... it's just a poor way to compare or judge players.

Why? Wouldn't that at it's core indicate that it's at the very least not a good thing? I don't understand why a guy consistently being able to come through when guys are on base is something that is a poor way to compare him to other players.

 

[FedEx227]

Why? Wouldn't that at it's core indicate that it's at the very least not a good thing? I don't understand why a guy consistently being able to come through when guys are on base is something that is a poor way to compare him to other players.

Because if player a plays on a team with a bunch of former MVPs and gets 140 RBIs he isn't necessarily better then a guy with 90 RBIs. There are so many more ways to compare and evaluate players that there is no need to rely on a stat that is so team dependent.

It has nothing to do with a guys ability to hit with men on base we have measures for that. The point is as a counting stat it doesnt necessarily tell the whole story. I still use it and look at it, it shouldn't be ignored but if trying to decide player a .vs player b it's just not that effective.

It's not that high RBI guys are looked down upon it's just not a particularly effective measure of individual performance.

 

[SethMode]

Because if player a plays on a team with a bunch of former MVPs and gets 140 RBIs he isn't necessarily better then a guy with 90 RBIs. There are so many more ways to compare and evaluate players that there is no need to rely on a stat that is so team dependent.

It has nothing to do with a guys ability to hit with men on base we have measures for that. The point is as a counting stat it doesnt necessarily tell the whole story. I still use it and look at it, it shouldn't be ignored but if trying to decide player a .vs player b it's just not that effective.

It's not that high RBI guys are looked down upon it's just not a particularly effective measure of individual performance.

That makes sense and is sort of fair. I still think it's giving and or taking away credit due to a too stringent focus on statistics, but that's how I look at the game in general so something tells me we would never agree 100% on that fact. Still, you make a very good argument.

Unrelated, I like the small cache of baseball regulars here. One of the few places I can go without the extremes of either side. Refreshing.

 

[FirstTimer]

That makes sense and is sort of fair. I still think it's giving and or taking away credit due to a too stringent focus on statistics, but that's how I look at the game in general so something tells me we would ever agree 100% on that fact. Still, you make a very good argument.

Unrelated, I like the small cache of baseball regulars here. One of the few places I can go without the extremes of either side. Refreshing.

Your team sucks. Fuck you.

GO SAWX AND CUBZ

 

[SethMode]

Your team sucks. Fuck you.

GO SAWX AND CUBZ

"I swear to God, one of these days, I just kick this piece of shit out the window."

 

[Hasselbeck]

Totally agree with Ryan Howard. Dude has always been overrated as hell. I laugh at his comparisons to Pujols.

Throwing another name into the discussion.. how about B.J. Upton? Granted he's been the only Ray so far this season that can seemingly make contact with the ball.. but removing that he's done virtually nothing since his 2008 postseason. The last two years?

2010 - .237 average, 164K, 18 HR, 64 RBI
2009 - .241 average, 152K, 11 HR, 55 RBI

Terrible. Not to mention all the time the guy flat dogs it out there. He's a very frustrating player to watch at times.

 

[SethMode]

Totally agree with Ryan Howard. Dude has always been overrated as hell. I laugh at his comparisons to Pujols.

Throwing another name into the discussion.. how about B.J. Upton? Granted he's been the only Ray so far this season that can seemingly make contact with the ball.. but removing that he's done virtually nothing since his 2008 postseason. The last two years?

2010 - .237 average, 164K, 18 HR, 64 RBI
2009 - .241 average, 152K, 11 HR, 55 RBI

Terrible. Not to mention all the time the guy flat dogs it out there. He's a very frustrating player to watch at times.

Like the Upton pick. My homer senses have me disagreeing about Howard. For one, I don't think any sane fan compares him, or anyone for that matter, to Pujols. For two, I think he's almost to that point now where so many people consider him overrated that he almost becomes underrated. Regardless, I think he's in the top 5 of 1B in baseball, but part of that is arguably due to guy love. I'm certain I'll get some disagreement there.