Saskatoon wants an NHL Team

[killgod]

http://tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=389234

No one is suggesting the NHL is considering relocating an existing franchise to Saskatoon.

But it is fair to say there have been expressions of interest from parties in the prairie city to purchase, relocate and house an NHL franchise in Saskatoon's Credit Union Centre.

Obviously, if the NHL is faced with relocating another franchise -- those options may have to be legitimately explored in the coming weeks or months with regards to the long-term future of the Phoenix Coyotes -- the most logical landing-spot candidates are Seattle, Quebec City, Kansas City and perhaps Las Vegas.

But interested parties in Saskatoon have contacted the league and suggested there are individuals or parties in Saskatoon who would be willing to ante up the required purchase fee while various levels of government in Saskatchewan would make necessary arrangements to expand and make NHL-suitable the 15,800-seat Credit Union Centre.

Even though Saskatoon's actual population is around 250,000 -- which at face value would seem to be far too small to support an NHL franchise -- the Saskatoon interests are pitching that an NHL franchise there would be supported by the entire province and it would be a viable operation.

In 1983, the St. Louis Blues almost moved to Saskatoon. Then-owner Ralston Purina were going to sell the franchise to Bill Hunter, who was going to relocate it to Saskatoon. The league blocked the move, took the franchise over when Ralston Purina effectively abandoned it and sold it to Harry Ornest, who kept the team alive in St. Louis.

Meanwhile, the NHL continues to focus on negotiations with three groups who have expressed varying degrees of interest in buying the Coyotes from the NHL and working out a deal with the City of Glendale to keep the franchise there long-term. But if those negotiations don't progress in the coming weeks, it's believed the NHL willl have no other option but to begin pursuing a parallel track to look at its relocation options while still trying to make the Phoenix scenario work.

Either way, one would assume by the end of the NHL regular season -- in mid-April -- the league will need to know whether it's staying in Phoenix for another year or relocating the franchise. Conventional wisdom is the league can't wait as long as it did last spring when Atlanta was relocated to Winnipeg in a process that started in late April and was consummated in late May. Ownership group True North in Winnipeg had an existing infrastructure in place that permitted a relatively smooth transition at such a late date.

But as interested as parties may now be in Seattle and Quebec, for example, none are as fully developed or operationally sound as True North was.

In the meantime, the short-term focus of the league is entirely on trying to nail down a completed agreement to purchase in Phoenix.

 

[Ravin]

Fuck this shit, what is everyone going to come out of the woodwork now and say they want an NHL team? Lets see, Quebec City, Toronto, Hamilton, Kitchener, London, Seattle, Kansas City, Las Vegas, and now Saskatoon. Anyone else want to jump in on this wagon before the Coyotes decide to move?

 

[Chrispy]

Hartford, CT :shifty:

 

[Ravin]

Hartford, CT :shifty:

See this is my thing, and I know you are joking (hopefully) but I really don't think cities who had a team should be getting one back. In some cases it has worked (see Minnesota) and the jury is still out on the Jets and if it will be a long term thing, and if they will still see the crowds 10 years from now. But this continued non-sense of moving teams back to bring back the old teams to me is stupid.

If you want to expand, expand into new markets. I don't know why I think Seattle would be a fine place for hockey, and would finally give Vancouver someone to rival with who is in driving distance. I just don't want to hear a bunch of "we had a team and we lost it, now we want it back" shit every team relocation comes up.

It sucks the NHL isn't capable of adding two more teams, but the draft pool would be so shit, and new teams would just got owned year after year. But then you can create two new markets and relocate a team to an old place.

 

[killgod]

See this is my thing, and I know you are joking (hopefully) but I really don't think cities who had a team should be getting one back. In some cases it has worked (see Minnesota) and the jury is still out on the Jets and if it will be a long term thing, and if they will still see the crowds 10 years from now. But this continued non-sense of moving teams back to bring back the old teams to me is stupid.

If you want to expand, expand into new markets. I don't know why I think Seattle would be a fine place for hockey, and would finally give Vancouver someone to rival with who is in driving distance. I just don't want to hear a bunch of "we had a team and we lost it, now we want it back" shit every team relocation comes up.

This is a pretty shitty argument because you're blaming crowds.

In Atlanta, they ran a terrible fucking team and had pathetic ownership. I'm not saying Atlanta deserves a team back, I'm just pointing out a failed franchise can have nothing to do with the city/people. They had nothing to support to begin with. The Thrashers were brought in simply to fill the arena when the Hawks weren't playing, that ownership group never had serious intentions on making a real go of it. Why blame the city for that?

Now if it does have to do with a lack of interest because no other reasoning can be discerned, well then in that case don't back...but that wasn't the case with Winnipeg or Quebec. It was the struggling Canadian dollar costing owners almost double the costs to run than the American franchises at the time.

 

[Bigpapa42]

This is a fucking retarded idea. I say that as someone who lives in this province and knows Saskatoon quite well.

They are almost certainly looking at the example of the Saskatchewan Roughriders of the CFL. Based out of Regina (population 193k), they are phenomenally well-supported throughout the entire province. I believe they sell the third most merchandise of any sports franchise in Canada - behind only the Toronto Maple Leafs and maybe the Canucks. But the Riders aren't supported quite as well when they aren't doing that well. Not to mention that they are a 102-year old community-owned football team.

The financial growth in this province has been impressive the past few years but that's just been years of trying to catch up to Alberta. There isn't massive money here. There isn't big industrial money like Alberta has with oil.

Quite simply, I don't see how this is financially viable. The dynamics of an NHL team in Saskatoon would not be the same as the whole province supporting the football team.

 

[Ravin]

This is a pretty shitty argument because you're blaming crowds.

In Atlanta, they ran a terrible fucking team and had pathetic ownership. I'm not saying Atlanta deserves a team back, I'm just pointing out a failed franchise can have nothing to do with the city/people. They had nothing to support to begin with. The Thrashers were brought in simply to fill the arena when the Hawks weren't playing, that ownership group never had serious intentions on making a real go of it. Why blame the city for that?

Now if it does have to do with a lack of interest because no other reasoning can be discerned, well then in that case don't back...but that wasn't the case with Winnipeg or Quebec. It was the struggling Canadian dollar costing owners almost double the costs to run than the American franchises at the time.

Obviously I get all that, I'm just not one to say "hey lets give every old city a team back just because it isn't working somewhere else." Winnipeg so far is working, and with True North running the ship, it should be fine. I am ok with that. Good ownership, strong dollar, right country....it works. And I hope when people start to talk about NHL teams and cities, the "we had a team" thing never comes up. Unless Quebec City has its own 'True North' then fuck them. Same with every other city going for a team. We don't need more Dallas and Phoenix teams being owned by the league. Although kind of funny that they had a very strong ownership group with a really rich guy who wanted to buy every team in the league if he could, but they turned him away.

What I was also adding is, since Gary loves to expand to new markets, if you are going to move a team, why not try and find a market you haven't touched on yet? KC and Seattle come to mind, and obviously us Canadians want more teams, but league wise, if they can find the right people and right city, I saw go there. Saskatoon is not an NHL city. I just can never hear myself saying "Penguins are playing Saskatoon tonight on TSN." lol

 

[leaffan]

This is a pretty shitty argument because you're blaming crowds.In Atlanta, they ran a terrible fucking team and had pathetic ownership. I'm not saying Atlanta deserves a team back, I'm just pointing out a failed franchise can have nothing to do with the city/people. They had nothing to support to begin with. The Thrashers were brought in simply to fill the arena when the Hawks weren't playing, that ownership group never had serious intentions on making a real go of it. Why blame the city for that?

Now if it does have to do with a lack of interest because no other reasoning can be discerned, well then in that case don't back...but that wasn't the case with Winnipeg or Quebec. It was the struggling Canadian dollar costing owners almost double the costs to run than the American franchises at the time.

Except thats the exact reason why the team departed. They were sitting at a loss of $130 million and climbing. During their "glory years" they had attendances at around 80% filled which was always in the bottom half of the league. Quite simply they weren't pulling in enough money to make the team better. They lost Kovalchuk, Savard and Hossa because they couldn't pony up the money to keep them there. Losing Heatley because of the accident didn't help either.

Lets not forget this was Atlanta's second go at hockey. They failed the last time because of lack of interest and rising costs.

As far as running the team they had a pretty good squad there but lack of UFA's willing to sign there severly screwed them and this is directly tied with the fact that they never had money and them not being a hockey market. This is the exact same problem the Devils, Islanders and Stars are going through right now. Although the stars have new ownership so we will see where that takes them. The devils can barely affoard to pay their players and god knows what is going to happen with Parise in the offseason. That Kovalchuk contract really hurt them financially and hockey support in New Jersey is dieing fast.

 

[Golden Taters]

Get in line behind Seattle :lesmug:

 

[PP]

Seattle is the next logical choice. the city has shown it can supports its clubs. hawks, sounders, sort of sonics lol

 

[dave]

Seattle is the next logical choice. the city has shown it can supports its clubs. hawks, sounders, sort of sonics lol

They supported the Sonics. They just didn't support a new arena.

 

[Bigpapa42]

Ended up talking about this last night with some buds over drinks. None of the five of us thought it was an idea that could work. All of us like hockey and and one of the friends lives in Saskatoon. I'm sure all of us would hit up a few games a season if it did happen someday but as much as it would be cool to have an in-province NHL team, its not something that is going to work.

 

[killgod]

how well does junior hockey do there?

I would imagine if you had a pro club you'd have Rider like support as those quoted in the article believe. Province wide, which would be required to support it. Although it would be hard to get athletes to come live there I imagine.

 

[killgod]

Except thats the exact reason why the team departed. They were sitting at a loss of $130 million and climbing. During their "glory years" they had attendances at around 80% filled which was always in the bottom half of the league. Quite simply they weren't pulling in enough money to make the team better. They lost Kovalchuk, Savard and Hossa because they couldn't pony up the money to keep them there. Losing Heatley because of the accident didn't help either.

Lets not forget this was Atlanta's second go at hockey. They failed the last time because of lack of interest and rising costs.

As far as running the team they had a pretty good squad there but lack of UFA's willing to sign there severly screwed them and this is directly tied with the fact that they never had money and them not being a hockey market. This is the exact same problem the Devils, Islanders and Stars are going through right now. Although the stars have new ownership so we will see where that takes them. The devils can barely affoard to pay their players and god knows what is going to happen with Parise in the offseason. That Kovalchuk contract really hurt them financially and hockey support in New Jersey is dieing fast.

Spoken like a true blue Toronto fan.

Non retarded fan bases don't support poorly built teams. Even the Habs fans know how to do this right, Leaf Nation does not.


As for not being able to pony up the money, that's a crock. It was them being unwilling to spend the money in order to get people to come, not being unable. They expected/hoped that the fans would come in droves and they'd then spend the money. When the fans came in 15-16K amounts, they still didn't do anything. Exactly why I said the owners never intended on giving it a fair shake, because they didn't.

The loss of Heatley could have been overcome, choosing not to spend on the core they had was the downfall because that was an obvious signal from ownership they weren't willing to spend money to make money. As a fan, I wouldn't support that shit either.

When the Thrashers had a good couple years (03/04 THROUGH 07/08 over 15K average) and made the playoffs, the fans were there. That is enough is it not? Winnipeg is MAXED OUT at 15K, but higher attendance won't work in Atlanta? Bulllshit. It's all because the Owners wouldn't commit to the players and weren't serious about building the club.

Atlanta failing for a 2nd time was ownership, the fan reaction was simply a by product of their failure.

 

[Bigpapa42]

how well does junior hockey do there?

I would imagine if you had a pro club you'd have Rider like support as those quoted in the article believe. Province wide, which would be required to support it. Although it would be hard to get athletes to come live there I imagine.

Average attendances under 4500k for the past two seasons. In a building that holds over 15k. Despite the team doing pretty well and tickets still being pretty cheap. There are a couple reasons for issues - they sold a lot of season tickets 3 years ago because that guaranteed people tickets to the world juniors. The arena is also way out on the north edge of the city, which is a pain to a lot of people.

I think basing any decision like this on the success of the Riders would be ignoring a lot of potential limiting factors. The Riders get fans coming in from every part of the province. There are only 9 home games in a CFL season, which runs summer-fall and typically take place on (or close to) a weekend. The Riders are very very well supported right now but that's after a decade of success. Go back before that and you had a consistently bad team that was having to hold telathons to raise money to keep the club solvent.

I have no doubt that a team in Saskatoon could succeed in the short term. For the first season or two, they would sell a load of season tickets and it would be almost impossible to get tickets. But beyond the euphoria of those first seasons? When the team is in the basement and the team loses some star players to free agency simply because they do not want to play in Saskatchewan? Surviving those times without seeing attendance dip well under 10k per game would be the test. And I seriously doubt Saskatoon could pass it.

I would go to some games. So would most of my buddies. How many? Well, its a 2 1/2 hour drive from where we live and its trecherous in winter (no joke, I've almost died twice on that trip) so zero chance that any of us would look at season tickets even if we can afford them. I see the distance being a barrier for a lot of fans. There is one other city in this province that's "close" to Saskatoon - and by close, I mean an hour and a half drive. That's the third largest city in Saskastchewan at around 35k and one of the major employers in the city closed down a few years ago. Unless something happens with diamonds or oil in the northern part of the province, they are money issues there.

It is possible that an NHL team in Saskatchewan would capture the exact same kind of passion that the Roughriders have managed to capture. But I really don't think the NHL should bet on that happening. Because its far from a sure thing, and without that province-wide support, a team in Saskatoon fails. Unless they have something empircal that says that yes, this province would flock to an NHL team and here is the studies that can suppor that, its a bad risk that could fail spectacularly. There are other cities in Canada that would be far less risky in terms of ability to adequately support a team.

 

[killgod]

Interesting information. I'm sure there could be things put in place to alleviate some of those concerns (transportation services provided by the team for SSH holders as an example), and the TV contract would have to be solid. I think that's the reason why Winnipeg got their team back, the contract deal with TSN.

How many people in Sask tune into watch Rider games would be a good figure to look at. You'd need at least 50% of the province watching games regularly for it to work I'd bet, along with a 97%+ filled arena nightly.

The lack of economic strength is certainly a huge barrier too.

 

[Ravin]

4500 for a junior game is actually good. The arena they play in holds 15,000, that is fucking insane and I don't even know if the London Knights could do 15,000, and they have a 9,100 rink in the JLC, and are the best team in Canada.

In sarnia we average around 3600 and have a rink built for just over 5000. We have a smaller population and a lot of people are pissed with the team, so they don't go.

I would say though for juniors if they are averaging 4500, that is a very solid crowd for those ranks. Most teams would be happier then shit to get those numbers.

 

[Bigpapa42]

Interesting information. I'm sure there could be things put in place to alleviate some of those concerns (transportation services provided by the team for SSH holders as an example), and the TV contract would have to be solid. I think that's the reason why Winnipeg got their team back, the contract deal with TSN.

How many people in Sask tune into watch Rider games would be a good figure to look at. You'd need at least 50% of the province watching games regularly for it to work I'd bet, along with a 97%+ filled arena nightly.

The lack of economic strength is certainly a huge barrier too.

Bus transport is something done regularly for Rider games and it would solve some of the problems. Its still tough for someone who works full-time if its a weekday game as that bus would be leaving by 3 or 3:30.

The economy here is an interesting aspect. Saskatchewan has seen significant economic growth in the past few years, even through the recession. Its not a poor province by any means. But its a pretty blue collar province - a lot of government jobs. Cost of living (especially housing) has gone up hugely in the past few years, so there is disposable income but not tons. Even if a decent percentage of the populace have signfiicant disposable income, the small size of the overall population (right around 1 million) means its not really a huge number of individuals. Its an area that I'm not 100% on and would take some serious feasability studies.

Winnipeg is going to make for an interesting comparison but also a dangerous one. If they try to correlate things here directly, its going to be making some stiff assumptions (same as pointing to the Riders as the expectation). Winnipeg had a team, so a lot of hockey fans in Manitoba grew up as Jets fans. The youngest ones may not have but a lot of whem who are my age did. Getting a team back makes it easier to switch allegiences if you've taken to supporting another team. Most hockey fans here support a team already, and its not the same situation as in Winnipeg. Some will give up their existing team... but some won't. I don't think I could give up being a Flyers fan after 25 years to throw myself fully behind a Saskatoon team.

The way I see it, the NHL has a number of other options they would look at before they ever got to Saskatoon and that's a good thing. This is a scenario which could, conceivably, work if a number of elements came together almost perfectly. But there is a lot of risk there.

 

[Bigpapa42]

4500 for a junior game is actually good. The arena they play in holds 15,000, that is fucking insane and I don't even know if the London Knights could do 15,000, and they have a 9,100 rink in the JLC, and are the best team in Canada.

In sarnia we average around 3600 and have a rink built for just over 5000. We have a smaller population and a lot of people are pissed with the team, so they don't go.

I would say though for juniors if they are averaging 4500, that is a very solid crowd for those ranks. Most teams would be happier then shit to get those numbers.

Yeah, 4500 (or a touch under) isn't bad. But the Saskatoon Blades and the Regina Pats have both had the same slight decrease in the past few seasons as the rest of the WHL, which has been through a period of significant economic growth in the province and the Blades have been one of the best teams in the division. From what I've read, attendance in Saskatoon really suffers early in the season when they are going head-to-head with Roughriders and U of S football games. I imagine the same happens with the Regina Pats.

I'm not entirely certain what the logic of having an arena that size in Saskatoon was. I know the Blades used to draw bigger attendances, but I'm thinking more in the 5-6k range, not filling that place.

Saskchewan as a whole is a pretty good hockey market. I don't question that. I just don't know that its an amazing hockey market where passion of fans will overcome all the other barriers.

Found some WHL numbers:

2010-2011: S'toon - 4,380 Regina - 3,861
2009-2010: S'toon - 4,393 Regina - 4,382
2008-2009: S'toon - 4,825 Regina - 4,825
2007-2008: S'toon - 4,300 Regina - 5,095
2006-2007: S'toon - 4,277 Regina - 4,676
2005-2006: S'toon - 4,265 Regina - 4,223
2004-2005: S'toon - 5,133 Regina - 4,282
2003-2004: S'toon - 3,361 Regina - 4,253
2002-2003: S'toon - 3,915 Regina - 4,642
2001-2002: S'toon - 3,205 Regina - 4,402

 

[Ravin]

Here is just some interesting notes on Jr. B in Ontario, and just going by the Sarnia Sting and London Knights.

Oct 16 - London @ Sarnia - 3,726 *first time London came to Sarnia and biggest crowd since the home opener which was 4414.

Oct 30 Sarnia @ London - 8,770 *First game for Sting in London.

Sarnia'a highest attendance in October other than London, 3595 vs Sudbury and it was the fourth game of the season on a Saturday night.

Dec 30 - Sarnia vs London - 9046
Jan 1 - London vs Sarnia - 4546
*this two play every year on a new years battle. Two times the crowd size going to London.

Feb 20 - London @ Sarnia - 5,100
* biggest crowd in Sarnia for a home game against London

Basically if you ever need to understand why London Knight players are so ready for the NHL is because they basically play in it every night.