Shaq Retires

[red33]

had this convo with someone, HNIC i think about Hakeem VS Shaq. I said Hakeemw as best Center ive ever seen play, he said Shaq. Hakeem had about 4 years he was probably best player or at best center in the game. But looking at Shaqs, the man had a good 6 year stretch or so of being the best center or player in the game.

I guess it comes down to likes really since hakeem was more of a finesse center while shaq wasnt. Looking at pure numbers SHaq kills in pts and rebounds but looking at other stats like steals, assists, and blocks, hakeem has the edge.

Id say Hakeem over shaq but if someone were to say shaq over hakeem i wouldnt be against it.

 

[FirstTimer]

I dont even know where the lazy shit stems from.. I see no reason to believe Shaq was lazy, he couldnt have been all that much more dominant without keeping the rest of his team involved. Shaq is a pretty damn good passer for a man that large aswell.

I think it's from when he kind of blew up to over or near 400lbs

 

[Herm]

I think it's from when he kind of blew up to over or near 400lbs

Its crazy to look at that card i posted or pics of him from LSU compared to the size we're used to seeing him for the last 6 years or so.

vs

He was dominant at LSU and his early NBA career when he was big but not the behemoth he became.

 

[LiquidLarry2GhostWF]

This is my thought.. would be hard pressed to put Shaq in my top 10.. top 15-20 for sure, I cant really argue any of those 4 Centers being ahead of Shaq.

Shaq would stick his giant dick in each of those center, sans, maybe Wilt, but Shaq was a better post-season performer than teh Stilt.

 

[jeffx]

Top 5 Centers

1. Wilt Chamberlain
2. Kareem Abdul Jabbar
3. Bill Russell
4. Hakeem Olajuwon
5. Shaquille O'Neal

He's first ballot HOF but I don't think he's a Top 10 NBA player of all time. Top 20 probably.

I agree about Shaq being Top 20, but for centers, I'd put Moses Malone above him, for the reasons Senser stated.

 

[Mogriffjr]

I wouldn't say Shaq was lazy but stubborn. Wasn't it Rick Barry who said if he could do FT's underhand he'd shoot at least 70-75% or something? In that case, I do agree, just getting his FT% up from around 50 could have landed him 30000 pt plateau.

Aside from that, I don't really understand what he could have done to become the best...get a jumper? meh...he was so powerful down low that no one could contain him, why take a jumper and make the defense be at ease? Once he got position, it was a wrap. Again only thing I hold against him is the FT stuff...

 

[Senser81]

I guess it comes down to likes really since hakeem was more of a finesse center while shaq wasnt. Looking at pure numbers SHaq kills in pts and rebounds but looking at other stats like steals, assists, and blocks, hakeem has the edge.

Olajuwon has more career rebounds than Shaq, and a higher RPG than Shaq.

To me, this was the biggest indication of Shaq's laziness. Maybe I'm splitting hairs, but Shaq should have been the NBA's leading rebounder nearly every year, yet he never led the league in rebounding once. He appeared to have the quickness and size to be one of the best rebounders ever, yet he never really put the effort it. He was also never a force on defense. He was a one-dimensional player, and while that dimension was important (scoring), I think that hurts him in the all-time greatest listings. I think his one-dimensionalness is also reflected in the fact that he only won one MVP award.

 

[Tailback U]

Olajuwon has more career rebounds than Shaq, and a higher RPG than Shaq.

To me, this was the biggest indication of Shaq's laziness. Maybe I'm splitting hairs, but Shaq should have been the NBA's leading rebounder nearly every year, yet he never led the league in rebounding once. He appeared to have the quickness and size to be one of the best rebounders ever, yet he never really put the effort it. He was also never a force on defense. He was a one-dimensional player, and while that dimension was important (scoring), I think that hurts him in the all-time greatest listings. I think his one-dimensionalness is also reflected in the fact that he only won one MVP award.

I agree to an extent but I think you have to factor's in Shaq's size. You can call him lazy or whatever, but a guy that big is not going to be in as good of shape as the other guys on the floor. If he worked harder on D and on the boards then I'm guessing it would have cut into his minutes and his offensive production.

Shaq was arguably the best at what he was best at. He probably could have been better on defense and on the boards but then he wouldn't have been as good on offense because he'd be more fatigued and play less.

And to simply say, "Well then he should have worked on conditioning," is naive. The guy was fucking enormous. I can't even imagine what it'd be like to play an entire game at that size. Keeping weight off at that size is no easy task.

 

[ryne candy]

I give the upperhand to Shaq because he has 2 more rings and when he faced The Dream in 95, he held his own stats vs stats of Hakeem.

edit: Shaq was in his 3rd year, while Hakeem was already an established vet.

The Dream
32.8 p/g, 11.5 rb/g, 5.5 ast/g, 2 stl/g, and 2.0 blk/g.

Shaq
28.0 p/g, 12.0 rb/g, 6.3 ast/g, 0.3 stl/g, and 2.5 blk/g.

Shaq even hit on 57% of FT in the series (Hakeem in the 60's) and a better FG% than The Dream.

 

[red33]

Olajuwon has more career rebounds than Shaq, and a higher RPG than Shaq.

To me, this was the biggest indication of Shaq's laziness. Maybe I'm splitting hairs, but Shaq should have been the NBA's leading rebounder nearly every year, yet he never led the league in rebounding once. He appeared to have the quickness and size to be one of the best rebounders ever, yet he never really put the effort it. He was also never a force on defense. He was a one-dimensional player, and while that dimension was important (scoring), I think that hurts him in the all-time greatest listings. I think his one-dimensionalness is also reflected in the fact that he only won one MVP award.

i was talking about his per game average during their prime.

 

[FirstTimer]

Olajuwon has more career rebounds than Shaq, and a higher RPG than Shaq.

To me, this was the biggest indication of Shaq's laziness. Maybe I'm splitting hairs, but Shaq should have been the NBA's leading rebounder nearly every year, yet he never led the league in rebounding once. He appeared to have the quickness and size to be one of the best rebounders ever, yet he never really put the effort it. He was also never a force on defense. He was a one-dimensional player, and while that dimension was important (scoring), I think that hurts him in the all-time greatest listings. I think his one-dimensionalness is also reflected in the fact that he only won one MVP award.

I see your point I just disagreee with it.

Shaq played in a league with Rodman I think that shoyuld be taken into account when looking at Shaq's lack of rebounding titles. It's really tough for me to label a guy with the most 20/10 seasons ever as lazy because he didn't win any rebounding titles. He finished 2nd 3 timesa nd 3rd twice and along with Rodman played in an era with some really great rebounders like Rodamn, Mutumbo, Jason Williams, Ben Wallace etc.

The one regular season MVP award is still a shock to me for a player that utterly dominant.

I give the upperhand to Shaq because he has 2 more rings and when he faced The Dream in 95, he held his own stats vs stats of Hakeem.

edit: Shaq was in his 3rd year, while Hakeem was already an established vet.

The Dream
32.8 p/g, 11.5 rb/g, 5.5 ast/g, 2 stl/g, and 2.0 blk/g.

Shaq
28.0 p/g, 12.0 rb/g, 6.3 ast/g. 0.3 stl/g, and 2.5 blk/g.

Shaq even hit on 57% of FT in the series (Hakeem in the 60's) and a better FG% than The Dream.

I guess ryne but anyone who watched the Series kind of came away with the impression that Shaq got punked around. Stats aside. I see the point you are going for but I think in this case they are pretty misleading.

 

[Senser81]

i was talking about his per game average during their prime.

Olajuwon's per game "prime" average is still higher than Shaq's. Olajuwon led the NBA in rebounding twice, too.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

For a two or three year stretch, Olajuwon was the single most unstoppable player I ever saw, with posiible exception of Jordan. He had the craftiest low post moves ever, and played defense too.

And I'm dumbfounded that in 2011, people still rank Wilt ahead of Russell. Stat geeks, just like Wilt himself, the most selfish player of all time. You know why Wilt never fouled out? He stopped playing defense with three fouls, so he could get his stats. He wanted to say he lead the league in assists one year, so he did nothing but force passes all year and shun teammates when they missed baskets off of his feeds. He would block shots into the third row, even if they could have easily been tapped to teammates, just to get the crowd to gasp.

And most importantly, he wasn't a winner in the postseason, despite playing with numerous HOF players and supposedly being a dominant force.

 

[FirstTimer]

For a two or three year stretch, Olajuwon was the single most unstoppable player I ever saw, with posiible exception of Jordan. He had the craftiest low post moves ever, and played defense too.

And I'm dumbfounded that in 2011, people still rank Wilt ahead of Russell. Stat geeks, just like Wilt himself, the most selfish player of all time. You know why Wilt never fouled out? He stopped playing defense with three fouls, so he could get his stats. He wanted to say he lead the league in assists one year, so he did nothing but force passes all year and shun teammates when they missed baskets off of his feeds. He would block shots into the third row, even if they could have easily been tapped to teammates, just to get the crowd to gasp.

And most importantly, he wasn't a winner in the postseason, despite playing with numerous HOF players and supposedly being a dominant force.

:yeah:

 

[FedEx227]

And most importantly, he wasn't a winner in the postseason, despite playing with numerous HOF players and supposedly being a dominant force.

He went to 6 NBA Finals in a 14 year career. I don't think it's completely fair to target him as someone who didn't win in the postseason...

 

[spiker]

He went to 6 NBA Finals in a 14 year career. I don't think it's completely fair to target him as someone who didn't win in the postseason...

Not to mention Russell played with a boatload of HOFers himself.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

He went to 6 NBA Finals in a 14 year career. I don't think it's completely fair to target him as someone who didn't win in the postseason...

Yes, he went to 6 finals in 14 years, as suppposedly the most dominant force, in what for part of his career was, what, a 10 or 12 team league? And how many finals did he win?

Wilt scored a bunch of points, pissed off a bunch of teammates, lost numerous Game 7's, and was traded multiple times despite supposedlt being the best C ever. Do you think the Celtics ever considered trading Russell for a nanosecond? Do you think they would have traded him for Wilt?

 

[Senser81]

Not to mention Russell played with a boatload of HOFers himself.

But they didn't win until Russell came along, and they stopped winning when Russell left.

 

[FedEx227]

Warner, you're better then Bill Simmons with this "Wilt got traded therefore he's worse then Russell thing". The Warriors were an unstable financial team at the time they traded Wilt. They received a pretty large amount of cash for that trade (if I remember correctly) it wasn't strictly a player issue. Wilt asked for a trade from the Sixers to the Lakers after his coach left... or he wanted to be in LA. Either way this wasn't a strictly player skill issue.

I know what you're saying and in some ways definitely agree, but don't go with that "he got traded and Russell never did" angle, it was retarded when Bill Simmons did it in his sham of a basketball book, I know you're better then that too.