Should Mark McGwire get into the HOF?

[Leftwich]

Espn has an article up about who should go to the hall of fame this year. They have an interesting write up about McGwire:

I'm tired of defending why I vote for this man. But here we go again.

I vote for him because there's no other fair way to handle the players of his generation. I vote for him because we now know that hundreds and hundreds of players in his era took some kind of PED, and we'll never know exactly who did what, or why.

I vote for him because I'm not going to take a stand only against players who gave funky answers to Congress or showed up in Jose Canseco's contributions to great American literature.

And I vote for him because he was a sport-altering figure: A man who compiled the greatest home run ratio of all time. A man who got MVP votes in every healthy season of his career except one. A man who made 12 All-Star teams. And a man who was ALWAYS a feared slugger from day one -- a man who (lest we forget) slugged .618 in his rookie year. Just so you know how to compute that, Adam Dunn, Adrian Gonzalez and Jason Bay are among the many folks who have never slugged .618 in ANY season.

If McGwire ever gets elected, I'm all for putting on his Hall plaque that he was a controversial figure who wasn't interested in talking about the past. But it's all a moot point. Even if he triples his vote total, he'll still be more than 50 votes short. So I guess I'll be delivering this same speech next winter, too.

Personally I think that piece of shit should never touch the HOF. Thats just how I feel..

anyone else?

 

[SHOGUN]

Personally I think that piece of shit should never touch the HOF. Thats just how I feel..

I really can't say it any better than this.

 

[Senser81]

No....because IMO if he never took steroids he never would have made the Hall of Fame. Instead of being remembered as MARK MCGWIRE! he'd be remembered as the Oakland A's version of Pete Incaviglia.

 

[mgoblue2290]

I don't think any of the guys who took steroids should get in.

 

[RainboUnicorn]

Yes he should get in. He never tested positive for any banned substance. Whatever he was taking was not against the rules in the MLB. If you want to be angry at someone then be angry at the MLB for not implementing better testing or having more banned substances. Not to mention Andro was legal to buy over the counter at the time.

After a reporter found a bottle of Andro in McGwires locker Bud Selig said "I just can’t comment. I have no knowledge of it. The Cardinals are a disciplined organization, and I don’t think anything goes on there that shouldn’t." Talk about being naive. If you want to be mad at anybody be mad at Bud and the higher ups for not doing something about it. Don't punish the players for doing something that was allowed at the time.

So yes he should. Him as well as many other players during his time were taking something.

 

[Senser81]

IMO, saying that McGwire should be in the HOF is basically a cop-out answer. You are choosing to ignore his steroid use. RainboUnicorn just said McGwire never tested positive, then in the very next sentence says steroids weren't against the rules!! Its like asking a child if they stole a cookie from the cookie jar and their response is "Did you see me steal a cookie from the cookie jar...and would it be against the law to steal a cookie from the cookie jar?" Thats not addressing the issue.

I guess a similar question would be "Do you think OJ was the murderer?" Half the people would say "yes", and the other have would say "He was proven innocent in a court of law". No one would actually say "No"...similar to how no one actually thinks McGwire wasn't a product of steroids.

 

[RainboUnicorn]

IMO, saying that McGwire should be in the HOF is basically a cop-out answer. You are choosing to ignore his steroid use. RainboUnicorn just said McGwire never tested positive, then in the very next sentence says steroids weren't against the rules!! Its like asking a child if they stole a cookie from the cookie jar and their response is "Did you see me steal a cookie from the cookie jar...and would it be against the law to steal a cookie from the cookie jar?" Thats not addressing the issue.

Not at all. He never tested positive for anything that was against the rules. It was not against the rules at the time. He played within the rules of the MLB during his career did he not?

If you are allowed to take cookies from the jar now then 10 years later it is not allowed, why should you be punished for something that was allowed when you did it?

You cant punish him for doing something that was allowed at the time is what I'm saying.

 

[FedEx227]

IMO, saying that McGwire should be in the HOF is basically a cop-out answer. You are choosing to ignore his steroid use. RainboUnicorn just said McGwire never tested positive, then in the very next sentence says steroids weren't against the rules!! Its like asking a child if they stole a cookie from the cookie jar and their response is "Did you see me steal a cookie from the cookie jar...and would it be against the law to steal a cookie from the cookie jar?" Thats not addressing the issue.

I guess a similar question would be "Do you think OJ was the murderer?" Half the people would say "yes", and the other have would say "He was proven innocent in a court of law". No one would actually say "No"...similar to how no one actually thinks McGwire wasn't a product of steroids.

McGwire is absolutely the hardest one to gauge. Someone like Barry Bonds even before PEDs was a HOF, he was an amazing ball player. McGwire owns nearly 100% of his success to PEDs though, so it's tough to say.

To your point, I hear what you're saying but can you really go to every guy who is up for election and say "Well I think he did roids" "he did them during this time" "well he would've been good without them" "he didn't really need them", etc...

I still probably don't elect McGwire but because MLB never did anything about steroids they've messed up the HOF. It's come to the point where you have to make complete opinion and judgement calls on these guys. I think we all know he did them, but I guess it depends if you're on the guilty until proven innocent side on 'roids or the innocent until proven guilty.

 

[FedEx227]

Periods and paragraphs are always a plus.

 

[RainboUnicorn]

paula abdul has never tested positive for vicodin, but that doesn't mean it wasn't obvious as fuck


HOF is a subjective vote based on WHATEVER criteria the voters want to use

I don't see how anyone with a brain and eyes could possibly deny he was obviously a roid user

just use your eyes

don't tell me you believe there are ANY professional body builders who got that way clean

just be honest and say you don't care

thats a perfectly legit argument for his hof entry

but to deny that he was a roid user is a tad naive I think

I didn't say he wasn't a roid user. I said that what he was taking was allowed during his career.

 

[FirstTimer]

Not at all. He never tested positive for anything that was against the rules.

Stupid logic.

USA Federal Law and State laws>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>MLB Rules.

It not being against MLB rules doesn't mean it still wasn't illegal and still wasn't unethical.

 

[LiquidLarry2GhostWF]

No, for the simple purpose reason that he never had the balls to admit he did them, nevermind the fact that he probably wasn't a HoF'r without them.

 

[celtsxpatsxsox]

I didn't say he wasn't a roid user. I said that what he was taking was allowed during his career.

Steroids have been on baseball's banned substance list since 1991 when Fay Vincent sent out the memo to all 30 teams.

 

[FirstTimer]

Steroids have been on baseball's banned substance list since 1991 when Fay Vincent sent out the memo to all 30 teams.

This as well.

It was a rule with no teeth, but it was still a rule.

 

[RainboUnicorn]

Stupid logic.

USA Federal Law and State laws>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>MLB Rules.

It not being against MLB rules doesn't mean it still wasn't illegal and still wasn't unethical.

Andro, the substance found in his locker, was not illegal by law nor was it against the MLB's rules. It was sold over the counter until 2004 I believe.

 

[FirstTimer]

Andro, the substance found in his locker, was not illegal by law nor was it against the MLB's rules. It was sold over the counter until 2004 I believe.

Yeah because McGwire clearly only used Andro...................

GTFO.

If all he used was Andro he would have said so in front of Congress as he would have nothing to hide.

McGwire was a roider. Don't be an ignorant pud.

 

[RainboUnicorn]

Yeah because McGwire clearly only used Andro...................

GTFO.

If all he used was Andro he would have said so in front of Congress as he would have nothing to hide.

McGwire was a roider. Don't be an ignorant pud.

So you are so ignorant as to say that he was one of the only ones and that not one pitcher he faced used any kind of substance as well?

You have to look at him against his era. There were many players probably using at the time. You can't single him out and say he was faced only clean pitchers. It was the steroid era and he was one of the best during that time.

 

[Senser81]

Andro, the substance found in his locker, was not illegal by law nor was it against the MLB's rules. It was sold over the counter until 2004 I believe.

I think he put the Andro container in plain view of reporters/cameras so they would think he was on Andro, not steroids. There is no other explanation that would make sense. A pretty lame attempt at misdirection, but no one has confused McGwire with Einstein.

 

[FirstTimer]

So you are so ignorant as to say that he was one of the only ones and that not one pitcher he faced used any kind of substance as well?

WTF are you talking about?

I never said that and never even insinuated that.

I was talking specifically about Mark McGwire. No one else.

Are you denying that McGwire did steroids?

What's your argument?

McGwire didn't do steroids? He did them but they weren't against MLB rules(even though they were)? He used them but so was everybody else?

Pick one.

You have to look at him against his era. There were many players probably using at the time. You can't single him out and say he was faced only clean pitchers. It was the steroid era and he was one of the best during that time.

I don't care. He used steroids. They were against the rules. They were illegal. He does not belong in the HOF.

PS. Google: Operation Equine

 

[FirstTimer]

I think he put the Andro container in plain view of reporters/cameras so they would think he was on Andro, not steroids. There is no other explanation that would make sense. A pretty lame attempt at misdirection, but no one has confused McGwire with Einstein.

Exactly. If all he did was Andro then in front of Congress all he has to do is say "I never used steroids. Only Andro." Instead he looks like a complete asshat and goes with the whole "Not talking about the past BS". He made himself look as guilty as if he had shown up with a needle in his ass.