Should Mark McGwire get into the HOF?

[Senser81]

What happened to Lefty34? Was he one of mfbmike's alter egos?

 

[FedEx227]

He's still hanging around. Just doesn't post here as much. Rush should be posting an article he wrote about Dawson in the HOF pretty soon.

 

[Senser81]

He's still hanging around. Just doesn't post here as much. Rush should be posting an article he wrote about Dawson in the HOF pretty soon.

Good. I look forward to reading about Andre Dawson's UZI rating.

 

[FedEx227]

hahaha, he uses Fielding Runs Above Replacement in this one.

 

[Senser81]

hahaha, he uses Fielding Runs Above Replacement in this one.

That acronym is not as catchy.

 

[Kuzzy Powers]

Mark McGwire and Sammy Sosa pretty much rejuvenated baseball after the strike.. noone gave a fuck about baseball until these 2 started the HR chase. At the time McGwire was doing nothing against the rules.. and right now its so hard to guage who was using and who wasnt.. for me, Big Mac is a hall of famer. Without him who knows what the state of baseball is today.

 

[FirstTimer]

Mark McGwire and Sammy Sosa pretty much rejuvenated baseball after the strike.. noone gave a fuck about baseball until these 2 started the HR chase. At the time McGwire was doing nothing against the rules.. and right now its so hard to guage who was using and who wasnt.. for me, Big Mac is a hall of famer. Without him who knows what the state of baseball is today.

For the 100th time.

Steroids were banned by baseball in 1991.

And even if they weren't banned by baseball.....

Steroids were illegal under US state and federal law.

Law>>>>baseball rules.

So yes, McGwire was not only doing something that was against the rules...but was also doing something illegal.

 

[EmpireWF]

At the same time, MLB had no testing so they had no power to enforce their own rules.

 

[FirstTimer]

At the same time, MLB had no testing so they had no power to enforce their own rules.

So what? Using them was still against the rules. Yeah no testing was dumb but then again the players union wouldn't agree to it so the CBA couldn't include it. It's not as though the MLB didn't want to test. They did but the Union wouldn't let them. It finally took the outcry from the BALCO scandal etc for the Union to finally fold to testing.

 

[EmpireWF]

So what? Using them was still against the rules. Yeah no testing was dumb but then again the players union wouldn't agree to it so the CBA couldn't include it. It's not as though the MLB didn't want to test. They did but the Union wouldn't let them. It finally took the outcry from the BALCO scandal etc for the Union to finally fold to testing.

So the players should have policed themselves in the 90s and prior to when MLB finally had a drug testing policy?

Jose Canseco had a big part in why there's testing now, despite the fact the guy is a moron.

It's a catch-22. Steroid use without just medical cause became illegal in the early 90s. MLB did not drug test until 2003 (I believe)....so there is no standardized way to judge who did and did not use prior to that.

Thus, voters will come up with their own methods as to determine whether guys like Bonds, Piazza, McGwire, Ramirez, A-Rod, etc. will be allowed in the HOF.

 

[FirstTimer]

So the players should have policed themselves in the 90s and prior to when MLB finally had a drug testing policy?

LOL at them needing to police themselves. They brought it on themselves. They didn't want anyone to police them because they refused to have testing in the CBA. The players were advocating policing themselves by refusing to negotiate testing.

It's a catch-22. Steroid use without just medical cause became illegal in the early 90s. MLB did not drug test until 2003 (I believe)....so there is no standardized way to judge who did and did not use prior to that.

Ok, *looks at title of thread*. We are talking about McGwire. McGwire juiced when roids were both banned and illegal. It's not a question. So how is his HOF status even up for debate?

Thus, voters will come up with their own methods as to determine whether guys like Bonds, Piazza, McGwire, Ramirez, A-Rod, etc. will be allowed in the HOF.

Ramirez is the exception to this as by any standard he shouldn't be in. He tested positive post 2003 when the results are made public. A-Rod is next in line and IMO shouldn't be in but his 2003 tests were supposed to remain sealed...then again he admitted to using roids when they were banned and illegal so.....no HOF.

 

[FedEx227]

I hate to say it, but I said it back when the A-Rod thing came up. There's no way to police this shit because the MLBPA let it get out of control. I think you let people in no matter what they did. Do it off the merit of their numbers, etc. Again, I hate to do it. Make a wing called the steroid wing, say some guys during this time period were rumored to have, etc. Then lock it down with testing now so we don't have it again.

There is just too much of a slippery slope with this stuff, where you get people like Gammons saying I WILL vote for McGwire because he never tested (despite the fact they never tested during his time) but I won't vote for Manny (who just happened to play when testing happened).

 

[dave]

If we had a magic truth machine that proved McGuire was clean his entire career, I still wouldnt vote for him.

To me, he was never one of the best players in baseball, and didnt have a HOF career. Adding PED's to the argument just clouds the issue and is a waste of time. All he did was hit lots of HR's. He wasnt good enough anyway.

Bingo.

 

[RainboUnicorn]

I don't believe its fair at all to just assume he was juicing. The only reason I say this is because it is not so easy to gauge all of the other players by just using the 'eye test'. If you are going to assume he juiced then you better assume everyone did. And if everyone did then it was a level playing field.

Can I assume Pujols is juicing? He's jacked and he hits homers.

 

[FedEx227]

That's kinda why I just want us to remember the steroid era, and classify it as such... and attempt to move on from it. I hate the eye test, the well look at his career path, look at his injuries, etc. It's all retarded.

With that being said, I still don't elect McGwire. I let Manny and A-Rod in for sure.

 

[FirstTimer]

I don't believe its fair at all to just assume he was juicing. The only reason I say this is because it is not so easy to gauge all of the other players by just using the 'eye test'. If you are going to assume he juiced then you better assume everyone did. And if everyone did then it was a level playing field.

Yeah it's not like we don't have the FBI and his steroid cycling information and dosages to back up the fact that Mac was juicing...plus his "non denial".

Can I assume Pujols is juicing? He's jacked and he hits homers.

Dumb to try and compare the two. Pujols plays in an era of testing and has never failed a test.

Mac was connected to roids by teammates and the FBI. Plus his "non denial"


Please tell me you see the difference.

 

[RainboUnicorn]

Yeah it's not like we don't have the FBI and his steroid cycling information and dosages to back up the fact that Mac was juicing...plus his "non denial".



Dumb to try and compare the two. Pujols plays in an era of testing and has never failed a test.

Mac was connected to roids by teammates and the FBI. Plus his "non denial"


Please tell me you see the difference.

He could have avoided the testing.

Okay, I'm being a smartass about Pujols. I have alot of respect for him and I don't think he is on roids.

My argument for McGwire is that most players were doing something in the 90's and during that period McGwire was one of the best. If he doesn't get in then nobody from that era should.

 

[FirstTimer]

He could have avoided the testing.

Okay, I'm being a smartass about Pujols. I have alot of respect for him and I don't think he is on roids.

My argument for McGwire is that most players were doing something in the 90's and during that period McGwire was one of the best. If he doesn't get in then nobody from that era should.

Meh not really. he just hit HR"s. Thats it. There was nothing else to his game.

Who do you think from the 90's is going to sneak in that was doing roids?

Mac obviously was, so why let him in an shrug about it?

 

[EmpireWF]

If McGwire were to get in, it's b/c of HRs and nothing else. Average BA, slightly above average OBP. Hits weren't there, no defense, he's a HR guy.

He will never get into the HOF.


Palmeiro won't get in b/c he failed a drug test. He had 20-less HRs than McGwire, more RBIs, better AVG, twenty points less in the OBP department and over 3000 Hits (which is usually a guarantee for the HOF).

 

[TheSanchize]

The thing is...while what all you guys say makes sense...we can't truly judge these people until we know who was on the rest of the list. How do you know that Randy Johnson wasn't on steroids? Or Mariano Rivera? We just do not know!

I do not think that McGwire should be in the HOF...however there are over 100 other players that are on that list who if their names are never released, have a chance to get into the HOF and it could only be because of steroids..