Should Mark McGwire get into the HOF?

[SuperKevin]

so are horseshoes and handgrenades

This made absolutely no sense in that context.

 

[SuperKevin]

He wasn't good enough in any other facet of the game to be a HoFer in my eyes. To me a Hall of Famer can't just be good at one thing and one thing only.

 

[FirstTimer]

He wasn't good enough in any other facet of the game to be a HoFer in my eyes. To me a Hall of Famer can't just be good at one thing and one thing only.

What about pitchers?

 

[SuperKevin]

What about pitchers?

They need to be solid accross the board. Win-Loss, ERA, strikeouts, OBA.

 

[FirstTimer]

They need to be solid accross the board. Win-Loss, ERA, strikeouts, OBA.

But they only do one thing. They just pitch!

(I'm just messing around)

 

[RainboUnicorn]

WTF are you talking about?

I never said that and never even insinuated that.

I was talking specifically about Mark McGwire. No one else.

Are you denying that McGwire did steroids?

What's your argument?

McGwire didn't do steroids? He did them but they weren't against MLB rules(even though they were)? He used them but so was everybody else?

Pick one.




I don't care. He used steroids. They were against the rules. They were illegal. He does not belong in the HOF.

PS. Google: Operation Equine

My argument was that most of the MLB was taking something at that time. I don't think you can take it out on Barry Bonds and Mark McGwire. The MLB failed at enforcing a steroids policy. Sure he might have done more than just Andro but so did the rest of the major leaguers. They did what essentially most players were doing (if you can assume Bonds and McGwire did roids then I can assume that most of the players were).

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

If we had a magic truth machine that proved McGuire was clean his entire career, I still wouldnt vote for him.

To me, he was never one of the best players in baseball, and didnt have a HOF career. Adding PED's to the argument just clouds the issue and is a waste of time. All he did was hit lots of HR's. He wasnt good enough anyway.

 

[TheSanchize]

You know what? Sure, he did steroids, but was he caught then? NO! Who knows how many other players did steroids that we do not know about. There is that WHOLE LIST of players that we do not know about.

He did what he did. Sure, it is a disgrace to baseball as to what he and Clemens and probably Sosa did. But, the thing is, it is the fault of the MLB. If they had been more strict and done testing that was MANDATORY then this would probably have never happened. Manny Ramirez is a good example for this year.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[ZAN]

McGwire shouldn't get into the hall....

It's hilarious he's the STL hitting coach now, too. How do you teach power? It's not like he was a good all-around hitter...He just crushed the pill over the fence. Wasn't a contact hitter. Wasn't a gap hitter....Just a power guy.

"First you take off the protective cover. Then let the air bubbles out...."

 

[mgoblue2290]

You know what? Sure, he did steroids, but was he caught then? NO! Who knows how many other players did steroids that we do not know about. There is that WHOLE LIST of players that we do not know about.

He did what he did. Sure, it is a disgrace to baseball as to what he and Clemens and probably Sosa did. But, the thing is, it is the fault of the MLB. If they had been more strict and done testing that was MANDATORY then this would probably have never happened. Manny Ramirez is a good example for this year.

Just my 2 cents.

Exactly and none of those guys should get in. Not Clemens, Sosa, Bonds, A-Rod, and on and on. None of them should be in the Hall of Fame, they cheated and this should be the price they pay.

Also, I hope a commissioner one day has the ball sack to take away the records set by these players, the home run record should be back at 755 and the single season record at 61 and all other records broken by these cheaters should be reset as well.

 

[FedEx227]

If we had a magic truth machine that proved McGuire was clean his entire career, I still wouldnt vote for him.

To me, he was never one of the best players in baseball, and didnt have a HOF career. Adding PED's to the argument just clouds the issue and is a waste of time. All he did was hit lots of HR's. He wasnt good enough anyway.

To be fair he also had some very impressive walk totals, he had some great plate discipline to go with those gaudy HR numbers.

I still don't think he goes in the HOF, I'm just saying.

 

[FedEx227]

Exactly and none of those guys should get in. Not Clemens, Sosa, Bonds, A-Rod, and on and on. None of them should be in the Hall of Fame, they cheated and this should be the price they pay.

It's not fair for just the high publicity guys to be punished while others are allowed to continue. A guy like Edgar Martinez very well may have, but he left before the whistle really got blown. Why should he escape more freely than a Sosa or McGwire?

 

[dell71]

The sheer power numbers alone are HOF worthy. However, I feel like a lot of guys, without the roids he doesn't stay on the field enough to get those numbers. Red flag #1, he had back problems. He's the only hitter in the history of the game, that I know of, to get back to what he was before having them, he got better actually. And this is after a few years of struggling to stay on the field. Just for comparison sake, Don Mattingly also came down with back problems. Before them, he was arguably the best hitter in baseball, hitting for both power and average. After them, his average dipped a bit (still good, though) and his power was sapped costing him a HOF career. And he didn't swing with nearly the torque on his back Big Mac did.

 

[mgoblue2290]

It's not fair for just the high publicity guys to be punished while others are allowed to continue. A guy like Edgar Martinez very well may have, but he left before the whistle really got blown. Why should he escape more freely than a Sosa or McGwire?

He shouldn't escape at all. Unfortunately those other guys had more success so they will always be the ones most commonly discussed when talking about steroids.

 

[FedEx227]

That's exactly the reason I didn't put him in, his era. He has pretty gaudy power numbers, but that's only when you look at it against baseball history. In his own era, he was nothing all that special outside of his '98 season.

Speaking of Thomas, he better fucking be a first ballot Hall of Famer. I know he won't be, but that's juts ridiculous. Frank Thomas may have been one of the greatest hitters of all time.

Joe Posnanski wrote up a great piece about him the other day
http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2010/01/04/best-players-in-baseball/#more-2974

Every so often I hear someone ask: “Is Frank Thomas a Hall of Famer?” Are you kidding? Frank Thomas’ first full seven years — .330/.452/.604 with OPS+ of 182. I want to repeat that — an OPS+ of ONE HUNDRED EIGHTY TWO. Just as an example …

First seven full years:
Frank Thomas: 182
Mickey Mantle: 181
Albert Pujols: 167
Willie Mays: 164
Barry Bonds: 160
Joe DiMaggio: 159

To give you an idea, Roberto Clemente, Al Kaline, Hank Greenberg, and a 100 other Hall of Famers never ONCE had an OPS+ of 182 in a season. Frank Thomas is one of the best hitters in baseball history.

 

[Senser81]

You know what? Sure, he did steroids, but was he caught then? NO! Who knows how many other players did steroids that we do not know about. There is that WHOLE LIST of players that we do not know about.

He did what he did. Sure, it is a disgrace to baseball as to what he and Clemens and probably Sosa did. But, the thing is, it is the fault of the MLB. If they had been more strict and done testing that was MANDATORY then this would probably have never happened. Manny Ramirez is a good example for this year.

Just my 2 cents.

Just curious...what player who was on this "WHOLE LIST" yet has flown completely under the radar when it comes to steroid use do you think will be enshrined in the HOF? I don't buy the argument of "There are players you don't even know who were on steroids that will get into the HOF, so you should also elect the known steroid users into the Hall", because no one has ever given me any specifics as to which steroid users will be "sneaking" into Cooperstown, thus you should open the floodgates for the McGwires, Sosas, and Palmeiros.

 

[FirstTimer]

My argument was that most of the MLB was taking something at that time.

Most? Proof?

You'r assumption that over 50% of baseball was taking an illegal substance is your argument for McGwire getting into the Hall?

I don't think you can take it out on Barry Bonds and Mark McGwire.

Why not? They cheated. They aren't being used as scapegoats. They got caught cheating. No one is "taking anything out" on them. They made their own bed.

The MLB failed at enforcing a steroids policy.

And the players failed to make ethical and legal decisions. Simply because the MLB failed at enforcing a policy doesn't mean the players are freed from the basic human function of acting in a moral, ethical, and legal manner. Yes you can blame the MLB for not enforcing the policy, but you have to blame the players for acting so unethically and illegally that their had to be a policy to begin with.

Sure he might have done more than just Andro but so did the rest of the major leaguers.

So now the entire MLB was juiced?

They did what essentially most players were doing (if you can assume Bonds and McGwire did roids then I can assume that most of the players were).

I'm not "assuming" anything with Bonds. He failed tests. That's a fact. McGwire, while we don't have a failed test, we have him connected with steroid dealers, have him connected to a known juicer, everyone but LaRussa saying he juiced, as well as a result of the FBI raid we actually have the schedule for the cycles of steroids he was taking.

I mean, Jesus Christ, McGwire himself won't even come out and say he didn't use 'roids when he is directly asked.

If we had a magic truth machine that proved McGuire was clean his entire career, I still wouldnt vote for him.

To me, he was never one of the best players in baseball, and didnt have a HOF career. Adding PED's to the argument just clouds the issue and is a waste of time. All he did was hit lots of HR's. He wasnt good enough anyway.

Exactly. McGwire wasn't a HOF'er anyways.

Just curious...what player who was on this "WHOLE LIST" yet has flown completely under the radar when it comes to steroid use do you think will be enshrined in the HOF? I don't buy the argument of "There are players you don't even know who were on steroids that will get into the HOF, so you should also elect the known steroid users into the Hall", because no one has ever given me any specifics as to which steroid users will be "sneaking" into Cooperstown, thus you should open the floodgates for the McGwires, Sosas, and Palmeiros.

Bingo.

 

[FedEx227]

Just curious...what player who was on this "WHOLE LIST" yet has flown completely under the radar when it comes to steroid use do you think will be enshrined in the HOF? I don't buy the argument of "There are players you don't even know who were on steroids that will get into the HOF, so you should also elect the known steroid users into the Hall", because no one has ever given me any specifics as to which steroid users will be "sneaking" into Cooperstown, thus you should open the floodgates for the McGwires, Sosas, and Palmeiros.

We'll have to see what happens with Edgar Martinez. He's the first of the guys that I really don't think is clean, but could sneak in.

 

[Senser81]

We'll have to see what happens with Edgar Martinez. He's the first of the guys that I really don't think is clean, but could sneak in.

True. I don't think he will get in, because he spent the vast majority of his career as DH, and his batting stats weren't THAT spectacular. But we shall see.

 

[FedEx227]

I agree, I don't think he deserves to get in at all when you look at his era he was just an above-average slugger add in his DH status and it's a tough road to climb.

Career: .312/.418/.515, 147 OPS+

Good, but... I dunno :shrug: