Sports Illustrated's "Baseball's Greatest"

[dell71]

Right around playoff time this year, the good folks at SI put out their book "Baseball's Greatest." It is one of those oversized coffee table books full of pictures. The purpose of the book is to list the sport's all-time ten best in 20+ categories, including every position on the field. They used a panel of "experts" including senior writer Tom Verducci among others. We'll run through all the positions, plus a few of the other categories. Quick note on that, players were eligible to receive votes at multiple positions. Other than the opinion of the contributors, there was no set criteria that I know of. Anyhoo, I'll start here.


Sports Illustrated's 10 Greatest First Basemen

1. Lou Gehrig
2. Albert Pujols
3. Jimmie Foxx
4. Hank Greenberg
5. Harmon Killebrew
6. George Sisler
7. Willie McCovey
8. Eddie Murray
9. Johnny Mize
10. Mark McGwire


Discuss, rant, post your own list, etc.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

Jeff Bagwell is 5th or 6th at worst in my opinion.

I'd tale him over Sisler, Murray, & McGwire without much thought.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

Also, Johnny Mize was a god damn monster, and lost three prime years to WWII. He's way better than Eddie Murray or George Sisler, not even close. I'd probably take him over McCovey & Killebrew, too.

I'd go something like this, maybe flip flop Greenberg & Mize if you want, or Bagwell & Thomas:

Gehrig
Pujols
Foxx
Greenberg
Mize
Bagwell
Frank Thomas
Thome
Killebrew/McCovey
Cap Anson/Sisler/Palmeiro

I don't know why they like Sisler so much, nice player, Hall of Famer, but not as good as a lot of guys they don't even list. Same for Eddie Murray, very overrated in my opinion, no way in hell he's better than Mize, or Frank Thomas or Bagwell, no way.

 

[dell71]

A lot of times, their lists are skewed toward HR totals and nostalgia. In Sisler's case, I think their love can be summed up in two numbers: .340 BA, 4 SB titles.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

A lot of times, their lists are skewed toward HR totals and nostalgia. In Sisler's case, I think their love can be summed up in two numbers: .340 BA, 4 SB titles.

He was so atypical for a 1B, he must have been some kind of awful with the glove, or had a horrendous arm, because he was 170lbs and obviously ran very well.

Anyway, Sisler pre 30: .361 BA, .914 OPS, 155 OPS+. Post 30: .320 BA, .779 OPS, 97 OPS+. He was always a guy whose value was tied heavily to batting average, but when he couldnt run as well anymore, he lost some infield hits, stole half as many bases, and never learned how to draw a walk. So he ended up being a slightly below average hitter despite the .320 average.

He was really an odd player. He hit .400 twice, I bet that's what these voters fell in love with.

 

[dell71]

He was so atypical for a 1B, he must have been some kind of awful with the glove, or had a horrendous arm, because he was 170lbs and obviously ran very well.

Anyway, Sisler pre 30: .361 BA, .914 OPS, 155 OPS+. Post 30: .320 BA, .779 OPS, 97 OPS+. He was always a guy whose value was tied heavily to batting average, but when he couldnt run as well anymore, he lost some infield hits, stole half as many bases, and never learned how to draw a walk. So he ended up being a slightly below average hitter despite the .320 average.

He was really an odd player. He hit .400 twice, I bet that's what these voters fell in love with.

That last fact is obviously a big factor. And at the time he played, it was widely believed a player's batting average was the biggest factor in determining how valuable he was. So .320 sounded pretty damn good regardless of what else he could or could not do. A lot of the guys that put these lists together come from an old way of evaluating players.

 

[dell71]

Not setting it in stone, but I'd probably go

1. Lou Gehrig
2. Dan Brouthers
3. Jimmie Foxx
4. Albert Pujols
5. Hank Greenberg
6. Johnny Mize
7. Jeff Bagwell
8. Frank Thomas
9. Harmon Killebrew
10. Willie McCovey


Dan Brouthers has been criminally overlooked. This is probably due to the fact that he was not only a dead-ball era player, but his entire career took place in the 19th century except for, strangely, 2 games in 1904 (his last game before that was in 1896). I know the arguments against including such a player, but many of them could be made against Gehrig. For comparison sake to a contemporary of his that's been mentioned here, he simply destroys Cap Anson. Just check his numbers out: http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/b/broutda01.shtml

I have to give Foxx the edge over Pujols. What Foxx did from '32 to '39 is beyond ridiculous, even better than Pujols from '03 to '10. Foxx wasn't too shabby in the few years on either end of that stretch, either. Plus his metrics are almost all better even though they're spread over a 20 year career. Pujols is close in most, but has only played 13 years and seems to pretty clearly on the decline.

At 9 & 10, I wouldn't argue with anyone wanting to put Palmeiro, Sisler, Murray, Big Mac, or even Thome. I'm not totally in love with any of them nor Killebrew & McCovey.

 

[dell71]

Feel free to keep chiming in on first basemen if you wish, but let's add the next spot:

Sports Illustrated's 10 Greatest Second Basemen

1. Rogers Hornsby
2. Joe Morgan
3. Eddie Collins
4. Jackie Robinson
5. Nap Lajoie
6. Roberto Alomar
7. Charlie Gehringer
8. Ryne Sandberg
9. Rod Carew
10. Frankie Frisch



Go.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

Dan Brouthers is a guy I forgot existed. You're right in that if you are going to include Cap Anson, you absolutely have to include Brouthers.You could make a case he was the best player of all time (granted that doesn't cover a ton of years at that poi t) at the time he retired, yet he's largely forgotten in history.

I wonder where Bill James had him in his rankings in the Historical Abstract. I'm on my phone, I'll check when I get home if nobody else posts it first.

 

[dell71]

Looked around online a bit for James' most recent rankings. Couldn't find just a list, but would still love to see how he has it.


As far as that list of second basemen, my first instincts say Joe Morgan is high, Frankie Frisch looks low and I wonder if Jeff Kent belongs. Hmmm...I'll come back to this.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

James has Brouthers 18th in the Historical Abstract, so reasonably he'd be out of the top 20 by now as the book is 15 years old and Pujols, Giambi, Helton, etc are nowhere to be found at all, not to mention Teixeira or Votto who reasonably could be top 20 by now as well.

He has Brouthers behind everybody mentioned in this thread, except Palmeiro (19th) and Sisler (24th). He calls Sisler "perhaps the most overrated player in baseball history". He rips Sisler for all the reasons I did. Low OBP (relatively) tied way too closely to batting average, and he questions his fielding ability.

Some other names not mentioned in this thread that he has ahead of Brouthers, in order of rank: Mattingly, T.Perez, Will Clark, Dick Allen (hey, he had to put him somewhere...if he's a 1B, he's probably make my list or at least be on the fringe of it), Keith Hernandez (dat glove), Orlando Cepeda. He has Cap Anson ahead of Brouthers.

I'd say reasonably he would have Palmeiro, Helton, Giambi, Pujols ahead of Brouthers by now. Maybe even Delgado, Teixeira, Fielder, and Votto too. And what position is Miggy Cabrera? Probably 3B.

Brouthers was as big as Cap Anson and, like Anson, had a theatrical bent, used to do things sometimes to amuse the fans, that would be considered out of place in modern baseball. One time he missed a foul ball, which hit him on the head. He dropped like he had been shot, and lay motionless on the ground until he was carried off the field on a stretcher. As the stretcher reached the exit he hopped up and ran back onto the field.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

Feel free to keep chiming in on first basemen if you wish, but let's add the next spot:

Sports Illustrated's 10 Greatest Second Basemen

1. Rogers Hornsby
2. Joe Morgan
3. Eddie Collins
4. Jackie Robinson
5. Nap Lajoie
6. Roberto Alomar
7. Charlie Gehringer
8. Ryne Sandberg
9. Rod Carew
10. Frankie Frisch



Go.

I think Lajoie 5th is mental, as I can't see any of my top 4 any lower than that, to me they are locked in, with Hornsby easily #1. Do what you want with the other three. Lajoie is littered in black ink, all three were big OBP guys who stole bases at a great percentage, and to me Morgan from '72-'77 is one of the greatest 5-year (or so) stretches in baseball history. In many ways Morgan played in the wrong era. He would have fit in perfectly in Collins or Lajoie's time, and his skill set would be far greater appreciated in today's SABR minded game. If Cano is a $200M player, I can't imagine what Morgan would have got if he were 30 in 2013. His MVP's came in age 31 & 32.

1. Hornsby
2. Lajoie
3. Morgan
4. Collins

5. Gehringer
6. Alomar
7. Robinson
8. Carew
9. Cano
10. Utley

I love Alomar, he did things with the glove i've only seen matched by Brandon Phillips. Great hitter, too. Gehringer struck out 372 times in 19 years. Carew hit a lot of singles. Like, a lot. For a guy who never walked 100 times, he still managed to lead the league in OBP because he hit a million singles. Plus he played half of his games at 1B. So he barely makes the list.

Yes, I have Cano & Utley 9 & 10, ahead of Frisch, Nellie Fox, Whitaker, Biggio, etc. Yes, their books are still being written (especially Cano) but with a gun to my head there is no way i'm starting a team with somebody like Frisch instead of Cano or Utley.

I always thought Ryne Sandberg was overrated. I don't know, maybe it's just me. Cano & Utley are much better players in my opinion.

And I don't like Jeff Kent. Iron glove, bad attitude. Lots of RIBEYES, sure. Hit some homers. But Cano & Utley do those things too, but also bring a glove to the table, and you lose nothing offensively and they may even be better.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

James has Morgan #1, and Hornsby #3 behind Collins. He has Biggio 5th.

The two most underrated 2B are Biggio & Bobby Grich. Grich is criminally underrated because he doesn't have eye popping seasons.

Same can be said for Biggio. But Biggio did little things that are under appreciated. Led the league in HBP a bunch of times, and never hit into double plays. One year he had 34 HBP and ZERO double plays. He followed that up with 23 more HBP and ONE double play. And those two years he stole 97 bases and was caught 18 times. That's amazing hidden value. All while stroking 50 doubles with over 75 EBH.

I'm tempted to bump Carew and stick Biggio on there someplace. But i'll leave my previous list in tact for posterity.

EDIT - I forgot about the infamous fielding bump Lajoie gets for being a "ball hog". Research shows that he had a disproportionate amount of putouts compared to league 2B during his time, to the point of absurdity. The reason, is Lajoie insisted on catching every pop up, and covering the bag on every SB attempt (which were plentiful in his day). So his defensive numbers are badly skewed and add a few points of WAR to his total that shouldnt be there.

1. Hornsby
2. Morgan
3. Lajoie
4. Collins

5. Gehringer
6. Alomar
7. Robinson
8. Biggio
9. Cano
10. Utley

I'm bumping Carew for playing shitty defense and because he played less than half of his games at 2B. And i'm putting Morgan ahead of Lajoie.

 

[dell71]

I'm bumping Carew for playing shitty defense and because he played less than half of his games at 2B. And i'm putting Morgan ahead of Lajoie.

EDIT - I forgot about the infamous fielding bump Lajoie gets for being a "ball hog". Research shows that he had a disproportionate amount of putouts compared to league 2B during his time, to the point of absurdity. The reason, is Lajoie insisted on catching every pop up, and covering the bag on every SB attempt (which were plentiful in his day). So his defensive numbers are badly skewed and add a few points of WAR to his total that shouldnt be there.

Things can get dicey with regards to position for a number of guys. Aside from Carew (1B/2B), there's Pete Rose (everywhere), Alex Rodriguez (SS/3B), Dick Allen (1B/3B), Miguel Cabrera (1B/3B), Robin Yount (SS/CF), etc. For future reference, this carries over to the OF, where the SI guys did actually make separate lists for each OF position.

The Lajoie ball-hog thing is interesting. I'd honestly never heard it. Just from looking at the numbers it seems this is somewhere between myth and reality. Going by the fielding numbers for second basemen during his career (1896-1916) as shown on fangraphs. He is certainly better than average by a sizable margin, but I'm not sure it's big enough to call "absurd." For instance, the league average at his position was 2.2 PO/game. His career average, just at 2B was 2.7 PO/game. In an era when the stolen base was a prominently featured weapon, would an insistence on covering the bag for every attempt at second and catching every infield fly only make a difference of 1/2 putout per game? Maybe. Looked at another way, he was also .22/game better in assists (3.08 to lgAvg 2.86). It's not impossible, but seems improbable that any sort of ball hogging led to his being better in this area. In addition, his fielding percentage was also solid above average (.963 to lgAvg .948). More clean handles also means more putouts. It's just hard to say that his greed was solely the reason for his higher numbers in that area. I'm sure it contributed, but we have no way of actually quantifying that. It's like trying to figure how many HR any of the 'roid guys would or would not have hit without juicing. Again, I haven't seen any of the research you're referring to, so this is just me going off easily available numbers and trying to reconcile the two in my head.

 

[dell71]

Sorry to keep beating this horse, but I found the Bill James entry in the Abstract on Lajoie online which is almost entirely about the guy's putouts. The problem is it's all based on ifs and maybes, and James doesn't even decide how this should be dealt with. He makes some plausible guesses about why his totals might be high, but gives no indisputable evidence. James' best point is that during Lajoie's tenure in Cleveland (13 yrs), the team was well above average in putouts by second basemen and well below average for the same by shortstops. A number of those years he notes that they were both first and last in those respective categories. He rails on for a bit more with more data to support the idea that Nap was doing something uncommon, but nothing concrete. In the end, he seems to throw his hands up at the matter because it is impossible to to know for sure.

The question we have to ask, to evaluate the impact of Lajoie's putout numbers on the success of his team, is whether these were plays which otherwise would not have been made, or play which otherwise would have been made by someone else.

I know James is far smarter than I, but I can't even fathom how he supposes to figure that out on games played over a century ago with nothing but old, lacking box scores to go on.

 

[dell71]

Okay, I'm going like this on second basemen...

1. Rogers Hornsby
2. Joe Morgan
3. Nap Lajoie
4. Jackie Robinson
5. Eddie Collins
6. Charlie Gehringer
7. Roberto Alomar
8. Ryne Sandberg
9. Rod Carew
10. Joe Gordon

I have Biggio, Kent, Grich, Whitaker, and Tony Lazzeri in the next group just outside.

For Cano, I'm hiding behind the fact that he's only 9 years in. I fully expect he'll claim a top ten spot in a few years.

As for Utley, I like him, just not sold that he's better than any of those guys. His entire career seems to be propped up what he did from '05 to '09 which is completely disproportionate to the rest of his career and for what's to come. He hasn't hit for as high an average or with anywhere near as much pop since. He doesn't get on base as much as he did then, either.

 

[dell71]

Sports Illustrated's Greatest Third Basemen

1. Mike Schmidt
2. George Brett
3. Eddie Matthews
4. Wade Boggs
5. Brooks Robinson
6. Chipper Jones
7. Home Run Baker
8. Ron Santo
9. Miguel Cabrera
10. Pete Rose

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

Shockingly thin position historically. I will dig into this over the next few days.

Can't wait to weigh Home Run Baker's league leading totals of like 9 HR's against Miggy Cabrera.

 

[dell71]

It's amazing how thin third base is, historically.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

Also, a good time as any for my "why the hell is Pie Traynor in the Hall of Fame?" rant.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/t/traynpi01.shtml