The breakdown of P4P meaning and fighters

[Liquidrob]

For Pound for Pound (p4p) discussion

Basically the term p4p means that 2 fighters met at the same weight and kept there skill set and fought who would win, not of 1 fighter dropped weight and the other gained and fought at the same weight, but if somehow say Fedor fought GSP at 170 and keep his same skill set, or if GSP fought Fedor at his weight with the same skill set he fights normally at, it is a made up scenario.

Steel Mamba probably adheres to this formula the most because it started from boxing, but the only problem with that is fighters need to use there skill set against competition to see where what it really is. You can’t just look at a guy and say he has better skills than another fighter based off just looks, but that is still part of the equation and shouldnt be 'discredited', skill set is important

P4p has morphed into multiple things that should all be added to the big picture, overall skill set, wins and losses, level of competition and I like to add in finishing percentage when talking about MMA fighters, NHB/Vale Tudo/MMA was originally about finishing your opponent and I think we would do a great injustice to the sport if we don’t see which fighters actually finish fights instead of just winning on points.

Back in the boxing days, heavyweight were never in the p4p talks, it was mostly created for the light fighter because the HW champ was already considered the best fighter, so p4p was brought into the picture to give lighter fighter a fair shake. Only few heavies have been thrown in the p4p mix, Ali, maybe Tyson in his prime and Lennox has cracked the top 10 on occasion, but I don’t think many heavies have been the universally recognized p4p king

MMA was built on open weight tourneys, weight classes were added for the smaller fighters, but the sport still has open weight tourneys, etc, but no in US MMA

Now Fedor is an Ali type for MMA, it can and will be argued that he shouldn’t be because he is a heavy weight, but like Ali he cant be denied just based off weight, if you look at over all skills set, record, comp, etc…he is right in the 1 spot, Steel Mamba tries to fight it, but his flaw is he tries to do it with Anderson Silva where he can actually make a case for GSP

Overall skill set in MMA, you can throw in more, but basically you are looking at

Kicking range, punching range, defense in striking range, clinch game (knees, elbows dirty boxing, etc…) takedowns from the clinch, takedowns outside of clicnh range, takedown defense, ground game which is broken into 2 parts, top game (Ground and Pound, top control, subs from top, etc…) and bottom game (subs, reversals, defense, etc…), cardio and got to throw in intangibles (how a fighter deals with adversity, coming from behind, thinking on the fly)

Wins and Losses, simple enough

Level of competition, who has the fighter beat and how they beat them

Finishing your opponent

 

[Liquidrob]

Lets breakdown some fighters

Fedor 30-1-0, 7 TKO’s, 16 Submissions, 7 decisions

Fedor is the greatest heavyweight MMA has ever seen, no legit lose on his record and avenged his 1 ‘loss’

Fedor skills set is amazing, amazing because he it seems his only top level skill is GnP, but his striking, takedowns, subs, etc…are all very good, but when you throw in his cardio for a heavyweight and his intangibles he is the best IMO, his cardio would easily be on par with the lighter weights in a p4p fight

His stand up is not the most technical looking, but when he has fought standing with some of the better strikers in MMA he has beat them at there own game, Cro Cop 1 of the most feared strikers in MMA, AA and his high level boxing skills and overwhelmed the 6’8” Big Tim, Fedor has also went over 20 minutes in the best guard in MMA when he fought Big Nog, even when Fedor cant dictate where the fight ends up he always seems to find a way to win, he cant out wrestle Coleman or Kevin, but used his other skills to win

Also, when faced with some adversity, like doing the fish dance against Fujita and getting spiked by Randleman he came back and won in minutes afterward, probably his best skill is never panicking and remaining in control, just like a prime Sakuraba, but only better

 

[Liquidrob]

GSP 18-2-0, 8 TKO’s, 4 Submissions, 5 decisions

If you are looking at overall skill set, GSO is the measuring stick, GSP has the best wrestling in MMA and has proved it against some of the best wrestlers in MMA (Kos, Hughes, Fitch), GSP stand up is very good and it does its job and sets up his takedown game, GSPs GnP is right up there with Fedor, but he does it differently while Fedor likes to stay in guard and pound, GSP has passed high level black belt guards like Penn, Serra, Fitch, etc…he can get to side control or half guard easily

GSP probably has the best cardio in MMA and MMA history, right along with Faber, a prime Frank, post Frank Tito, etc..You can not go 5 rounds with GSP and have more gas than him at the end and he just inst stalling, its constant, so his Cardio, Top Game and takedowns are elite right now

Resume wise, GSO has beat the who’s who of MM 170 lbers, GSPs only knock would be 2 fights where he was in trouble and didn’t perform, mounted by Hughes and got arm barred, got caught by Serra and couldn’t not recover, his best recovery was against BJ where he got poked and cut in the eye in the first round and probably got his nose broke, showed good will in that fight

Also, GSP biggest thing is he is able to dictate where the fight goes, he hasnt met a wrestler or striker he couldnt put on his back, now we just need to see what happens if a striker can keep GSP standing and how he fights thru it

 

[Liquidrob]

Lyoto Machida 15-0-0, 5 TKO’s, 2 Submissions, 8 decisions

Machida like GSP, can dictate where the fight goes, he has the ability to make you stand and strike with him with his footwork and elusiveness, probably the best tactical stand up game in MMA, worked a lot on his wrestling and devolved some great takedown defense, also a BJJ black belt

Biggest knock on Machida is his competition level, has a win against Rashad, Tito and the rest are not that impressive, wins against BJ and Franklin at higher weights doesn’t do much also Machida hasn’t really faced the level of Striker a Fedor or other guys have fought, Machida seems to never take damage and make fighters look like amateurs, Machida is in the convo, he beats Shogun he is right there

Also, being in the UFC LHW division is a plus, the top end talent is there and it’s a very deep division, would like to see Machida finish more fights which he has done lately, Machida is on a roll

 

[Liquidrob]

BJ Penn 13-5-1, 5 TKO’s, 5 Submissions, 3 Decisions

BJ is probably the hardest fighter to rank, if you go by straight up skill set, he is near the top 3, BJ was the first non Brazilian to win worlds in BJJ, has devolved a very good boxing game, takedowns and takedowns defense

Has won belts in 2 weight classes and beat 1 of the best WW’s of all time in Hughes and LWs in Gomi, both by rear naked choke

BJ has only 1 loss at LW but likes to keep his options open and always jumps up and down in weight, but at LW he has KO power, better cardio and almost unbeatable, only loss was to a prime Jens where is the 2nd round had 2 more seconds he would have subbed him

If BJ stayed at LW in his career he would be top 5 p4p every year, but his going up and down had helped and hurt him, skill and talent wise BJ is right there, his skills definitely out weight his record

 

[Liquidrob]

Anderson Silva 24-4-0, 14 TKOs, 4 Submissions, 6 decisions

Silva has some of the prettiest stand up in MMA, kicking, punching, clinch game it’s all there, has brutalized many quality opponents, but hasn’t finished in his last 3, only issue I see with Silva is he hasn’t had to beat any high level strikers, he can toy with decent stand up guys, but never had to beat a quality striker, I’m sure he can, but in his division there really isn’t that type of striker

Has a couple every bad losses, mental lapses and been caught by B level fighters, Silva has shown better BJJ lately, earned his BJJ black belt and pulled off a beautiful standing switch on Nate the Great, probably the most accurate striker in MMA, when he hits its on point, wins over Dan Henderson, Franklin X 2, Nate are very good wins

Also, has shown the ability to fight at higher weight classes, he has fought at 167 in the past, and know dominates 185, Forrest at 205 is a big jump from James Irvin, he beats Forrest and I can’t hate anymore (maybe)

 

[Liquidrob]

Miguel Torres 37-1-0, 9 TKO’s, 22 Submissions, 6 Decisions

The 135 king, Torres has a record that reviles Fedor, gets overlooked because of the smaller weight class, has 22 sub wins; also to have only 6 decisions in the smaller weights is great.

This guy can go and go, non stop kicks, punches, knees, sub attempts, striking from top and bottom, the biggest knock on Miguel would be not having a signature win, might get stuck in the Roy Jones Jr mix of just being better than everyone else, unless he goes up to fight Brown, or Faber comes down, he doesn’t have many options, maybe if the WEC can get Kid over to the states it would help Torres

Also, has avenged his only loss like GSP Fedor, Miguel has elite level cardio, sub game and transitions, wrestling is not his biggest strength but almost every time he gets put on his back he subs you or gets up, Torres is the most underrated 37-1 in history, lol and always had to play 2nd fiddle to Faber in the WEC because of Fabers drawing power

 

[Liquidrob]

Also, these are not in any order, just guys in the discussion of p4p rankings, there are more I just got tired, lol

 

[CrimsonGhost56]

good stuff. i for one think p4p rankings are just silly but i know you guys get a kick out of them.

Fedor
GSP
A. Silva

and whoever the fuck falls after that

 

[EmpireWF]

GSP
Fedor
Silva
Torres

 

[Liquidrob]

Mike Brown 22-4-0 4 TKO's, 12 Submissions, 6 Decisions

Brown is coming off to convincing wins against the former 145 King in Uriah Faber, Brown was able to KO the California Kid in 1 round and win in a 5 round fight, showing stand up, clinch game, takedowns and cardio, Faber along with GSP are probably the best conditioned athletes in MMA right now and Brown was relentless in both fights.

At 145 Brown is a monster, he along with GSP and possible Machida can dictate where the fight will go which is huge, if he wants to stand and box you cant get him down, if he wants to take you down, he will. Shows a great all around game with 12 submission wins, a brown belt in BJJ and great wrestling base. His boxing is on point, his biggest weakness area would be the kicking game, doesn’t need to throw them, but has at least shown a good defense against kicks

3 out of Browns 4 losses are at 155 against quality competition, but at 145 he is in his perfect weight class, next up is Jose Aldo, if he can take out this kid he moves up the p4p ranks even more

Also, things to consider when talking about fighters in the 145 and 135 class, these guys never catch a break, everyone in there division has cardio (which is huge), the fighters in general are more well rounded, you don’t see that in the higher weight classes, not even at 155. In the higher weight classes you regularly see fighter’s gassing after a couple rounds, not being able to fight in all ranges, etc…

 

[LiquidLarry2GhostWF]

It is Fedor and then everyone else. The king stay the king.

Then you have GSP, Silva, and Torres. clumped together.

After that, you might have Machida, but I need to see a defense before I put him up there with the GOAT and GOATettes.

So, I'd go...tiered...

Fedor










Silva
GSP
Torres
*can't differentiate, they are all impressive in their class)





Machida.
BJ Penn

 

[Steel Mamba]

Rob droppin some knowledge, good stuff. & I do agree that it's important for fighters to put their skill on display against elite contenders in order to validate their ability, but basically what it all boils down to is this right here

the term p4p means that 2 fighters met at the same weight and kept there skill set and fought who would win

I can think of a handful of guys who are capable of beating Fedor in that scenario. There are more fighters throughout the weight divisions who would matchup favorably against Fedor than there are for GSP or maaybbee even Anderson Silva and Machida as well.

 

[Liquidrob]

Rob droppin some knowledge, good stuff. & I do agree that it's important for fighters to put their skill on display against elite contenders in order to validate their ability, but basically what it all boils down to is this right here

I can think of a handful of guys who are capable of beating Fedor in that scenario. There are more fighters throughout the weight divisions who would matchup favorably against Fedor than there are for GSP or maaybbee even Anderson Silva and Machida as well.

If I go by that technically, I think GSP is the best possible match up to beat Fedor

Fedor doesnt have elite level TD defense and GSP can and would put Fedor on his back when he wanted to and I dont think Fedor would get the sub, GSP is just to skilled on top, but the 1 thing I give Fedor is the intangibles, he will not break mentally and has shown that in the past

Fedor would be able to land some shots and turn GSP's lights out, GSP has been broken in the past and Fedor has not, plus it being a 5 rounder it would give Fedor many chances to pull it out

Silva wouldnt be able to stop Fedor takedowns enough and his BJJ is not at Nogs level who he got his black belt from, Hendo and Lutter have put him on his back and Fedor has shown the ability to not get hurt in the stand up against very good strikers, Fedor would be the favorite

Machida is interesting, he has been taken down in the past, I believe an out of shape Penn did it a couple times, of course Machida has improved, but the only guy to try and really take him down was Tito and Tito's back is shot, so its still a question mark, but Machida is a good fight for Fedor also

If Fedor fought all 3 of these guys in a p4p fight I would favor Fedor over Silva and Machida and it would be a pick em' fight with GSP

Torres and Brown are interesting, but Torres would be on his back and eating GnP all fight, but Brown could stand and probably take Fedor down without letting Fedor get him down and has good enough grappling to not get subbed, so Brown could dictate where the fight goes, but I give the edge to Fedor of course

Penn skill wise can hang with anyone, but cardio against Fedor would be his downfall, BJ after 2 or 3 rounds is suspect and Fedor can go all fight long, he would beat Penn in the end

 

[Liquidrob]

Quinton ‘Rampage’ Jackson 30-7-0 14 TKO’s, 7 Submissions, 9 Decisions

Out of all the guys on the list, Rampage was probably improved the most, he was just a strong guy who liked to slam people on there dome, now he can still do that when he chooses too which sadly he hasn’t lately, but he would rather beat you with his hands and have the ref pull him off the bloodied opponent.

If you look at his 7 losses its not as bad as it sounds, he avenged 3 of his losses against Marvin Eastman and Wand and has a DQ loss to Matsui, but his wins are very impressive, beat a prime Chuck and also KO’d Chuck with 1 punch later on, wins over Igor, Randleman, Arona, Linland, Henderson and Jardine also

Even being knocked out by Shogun and Wand, he has shown a great chin and it took countless shots from both guys to put Rampage down, he can stand in there with anyone and go shot for shot

Biggest weaknesses seem to be leg kicks which Forrest and Jardine used effectively and Wand and Shogun brutalizing him in the clinch, but has 1 punch KO power and refined his boxing skills to a high level, tough to takedown and can power out of most subs. Would have had the title shot, but by passed it for TUF coach and Rashad, could be a smart move but a loss to Sugar will screw up his plans

 

[Liquidrob]

Mauricio ‘Shogun’ Rua 18-3-0 15 TKO’s, 1 Submission, 2 Decisions

Just a year or 2 ago Shogun was in the top 3 p4p discussion, even though Wand was the champ of pride, Shogun was seen as the people’s champ of the division. Shogun has almost a 90% finishing rate and if you throw out a fluke loss to Coleman who he later beat when he broke his arm on a takedown his record looks even better, only losses was to Forrest most recently and Babalu early in his career

With wins over Chuck, Rampage, Overeem X 2, Randleman, Arona, and Little Nog his resume is as impressive as anyone and these are not decision wins, these were beat downs for the most part. Shogun has the total package of strikes, takedowns, subs, etc…only concerns is he ‘looks sloppy’ when he is just going off on someone and in the UFC you cant stomp or soccer kick, but he will still blast you as he showed against Chuck instead of kicking he just hammer fisted the Ice Man to sleep, also lately his cardio has not been as impressive as in the past but coming off major surgery and a long lay off he is still as dangerous as they come and seems to be building back the stamina

Next up is Machida, if Shogun takes out the dragon, he is right in the top 5 mix, sorry guys, it’s true

 

[Liquidrob]

having a problem picking a legit 10th to throw in the mix

I wanted more lightweights because of the skill level, but Aoki, JZ, Hansen, Alvarez and Kawajiria are all cancelling each other out, cant pick 1

Maybe Forrest? Alves is not as impressive as it seems but if he beats GSP he is in, Fitch doesnt have the signature win, Hendo not as impressive of late and has a couple losses and a lack luster win against Rich and a bunch of decisions, worse than Machida

who else?

 

[LiquidLarry2GhostWF]

How about we have a little discussion on who the #2 heavyweight in the world is...and, whether or not they should be considered in the Top 10.

Comes down to Barnett and Mir for me. I'd take Mir, but that's me. This is a different Mir we've seen in his last three fights, all against legit heavies. Arlovski isn't even close anymore after getting his azz beat by Rogers.

 

[Liquidrob]

How about we have a little discussion on who the #2 heavyweight in the world is...and, whether or not they should be considered in the Top 10.

Comes down to Barnett and Mir for me. I'd take Mir, but that's me. This is a different Mir we've seen in his last three fights, all against legit heavies. Arlovski isn't even close anymore after getting his azz beat by Rogers.

I think its Barnett my a mile, Mir isnt in that convo even if he beats Lesnar again, he needs to beat some quality heavys

Mir has way to many weaknesses, I think Barnett is fringe top 10 p4p and the only HW that could crack the top 10, if he beats Fedor, of course, but besides that it would be tough

Barnett has had a weird career with beign the UFC champ, steriods, pro wrestling, cro cop losses, but he is legit and easily the number 2 HW in the world IMO

 

[LiquidLarry2GhostWF]

I think they are right next to each other...but I try not to use subjective stuff like skill and try to envision match ups...trying to be fair and use the tangible stuff. Mir's hurt a bit because he is in the UFC where he can't fight Fedor or Barnett or AA nor can he fight Big Tim again, or up and comer Brett Rogers who is hot hot hot after the AA fight...definitely burst on the scene and made his name more known with that fight. However, this Frank Mir isn't the same Mir that lost to Vera three years ago either.

Barnett and Mir is a bit closer than I think you let on...over the past "2 and a half" years, both have been pretty much at the same level. If you look at same opponents...Barnett loses to Big Nog...Mir beats him. I thought Mir's win over Hardonk held a little more weight before Hardonk lost to Kongo.