The breakdown of P4P meaning and fighters

[Liquidrob]

Shinya Aoki 20-4-0 1 TKO, 12 Submissions, 5 decisions

Aoki is the most ‘limited’ of the top p4p fighters on the list, but Aoki does something that not many submission guys do when they cant get the takedown, he can still force you to the ground by pulling guard, pulling half guard, flying guard pull or even butt scooting. In America pulling guard is seen as a weak tactic, but Aoki doesn’t care, he will dictate where the fight goes even if he is overpowered and not many fighters can say or do that

His stand up is lacking, his takedowns are decent (judo throws mostly), but his sub game is 1 of the best if not the best in MMA, probably has the most wins over top 5 LW competition in JZ, Alvarez and Hansen, throw in LW beast Cal Uno and Aoki has been a monster at 155.

When you add that the Hansen win was via Gogoplata, the Alverez was from a heel hook, Aoki has put away top comp with subs, not decisions and even when he took JZ the distance it was a grappling masterpiece from the bottom which you rarely see in todays MMA game and these 3 are not grappling novices

2 out of his 4 losses are to Sakurai at 170 and is a legit bad ass, Aoki and Hansen are 1-1 against each other and a 3rd match hopefully will be on its way

Aoki and his magic pants always put on a grappling clinic

also, another plus I'd like to throw out for Aoki is that he has fought 9 times since 08

 

[Liquidrob]

So my current top 10 is (not in order)

Fedor (HW)
GSP (WW)
Machida (LHW)
Penn (LW)
Silva (MW)
Torres (BW)
Brown (FW)
Rampage (LHW)
Shogun (LHW)
Aoki (LW)

What I find interesting is that in p4p rankings in boxing, the majority of the fighters will be in the lower weight, but just going by this list and other MMA p4p lists you see a lot of the higher weight class fighters in the mix or dominating the top 10

I think because MMA still has its open weight feel and tradition and the higher weight class fighter doesnt get short changed for just being 'bigger'

Even guys like GSP who fight at 170 are considered 'smaller' by MMA standards and when you look at a boxing top 10, it will have only 1 maybe 2 guys at that weight and all the fighters are 160 and below

 

[Liquidrob]

I think they are right next to each other...but I try not to use subjective stuff like skill and try to envision match ups...trying to be fair and use the tangible stuff. Mir's hurt a bit because he is in the UFC where he can't fight Fedor or Barnett or AA nor can he fight Big Tim again, or up and comer Brett Rogers who is hot hot hot after the AA fight...definitely burst on the scene and made his name more known with that fight. However, this Frank Mir isn't the same Mir that lost to Vera three years ago either.

Barnett and Mir is a bit closer than I think you let on...over the past "2 and a half" years, both have been pretty much at the same level. If you look at same opponents...Barnett loses to Big Nog...Mir beats him. I thought Mir's win over Hardonk held a little more weight before Hardonk lost to Kongo.

I dont see anything Mir has done to vault him up, Nog just looks old, slow and broken, I said it before that he can still pull out a great win because of his chin, heart and skill, but since coming to the UFC, he almost got KO'd by Heath, Tim was laying into him and Mir hit the same 3 punch combo every time he threw it

Hardonk, Brock are not great or even good wins at this point

Barnett atleast has some history and a defined skill set, does Mir have even good stand up? No, good takedowns? No, Cardio? No, has a very good sub game though

Barnett is better at everything than Mir except fighting from his back, but Barnett has many sub wins and is a stud on the ground, they just have a different kind of ground game, Catch vs BJJ

Even though AA has fallen off, he would be good gauge for Mir IMO, even a Werdum who the UFC dropped, I guess we will have to see if Cain and Carwin get some shots at the title after the Brock/Mir fight

 

[LiquidLarry2GhostWF]

I dont see anything Mir has done to vault him up, Nog just looks old, slow and broken, I said it before that he can still pull out a great win because of his chin, heart and skill, but since coming to the UFC, he almost got KO'd by Heath, Tim was laying into him and Mir hit the same 3 punch combo every time he threw it

Hardonk, Brock are not great or even good wins at this point

Barnett atleast has some history and a defined skill set, does Mir have even good stand up? No, good takedowns? No, Cardio? No, has a very good sub game though

Barnett is better at everything than Mir except fighting from his back, but Barnett has many sub wins and is a stud on the ground, they just have a different kind of ground game, Catch vs BJJ

Even though AA has fallen off, he would be good gauge for Mir IMO, even a Werdum who the UFC dropped, I guess we will have to see if Cain and Carwin get some shots at the title after the Brock/Mir fight

Arlovski, love him, but at this point I am not sure I'd consider him a quality opponent for a "Top 5" Heavyweight. He is coming off being dropped twice and hasn't done anything since beating Werdum a few years ago...and Werdum is a bum, a boring bum at that. At least when Big Tim was boring, he was legit and winning and when he wasn't, he was shoveled off.

The best match for both, considering at the very least I'd put Mir 3 to Barnett's 2, would be each other, but that's not happening.

 

[Liquidrob]

Arlovski, love him, but at this point I am not sure I'd consider him a quality opponent for a "Top 5" Heavyweight. He is coming off being dropped twice and hasn't done anything since beating Werdum a few years ago...and Werdum is a bum, a boring bum at that. At least when Big Tim was boring, he was legit and winning and when he wasn't, he was shoveled off.

The best match for both, considering at the very least I'd put Mir 3 to Barnett's 2, would be each other, but that's not happening.

Mir isnt at Barnetts level, or Fedors

Mir is fighting Hardonks and Brocks, Mir should fight an AA, Werdum, or even Monson

I would like to see Mir beatdown by Fedor and Barnett, but thats not happening any time soon

Even Cro Cop would be good, if Cro Cop wins his next fight he should fight Brock or Mir, you cant forget all the people Cro Cop beat and say he is a scrub, the dude has a legit hit list

 

[EmpireWF]

No way Cro Cop should fight Mir/Brock next if he wins Saturday. Cro Cop would have beaten an average dude in Al-Turk. Let Cro Cop have at Gonzaga again or even Carwin, first.

 

[LiquidLarry2GhostWF]

Mir isnt at Barnetts level, or Fedors

Mir is fighting Hardonks and Brocks, Mir should fight an AA, Werdum, or even Monson

I would like to see Mir beatdown by Fedor and Barnett, but thats not happening any time soon

Even Cro Cop would be good, if Cro Cop wins his next fight he should fight Brock or Mir, you cant forget all the people Cro Cop beat and say he is a scrub, the dude has a legit hit list

Mir is also fighting Big Nog, the same Big Nog (maybe not the same, but if we are giving Cro Cop credit for his hit list...shouldn't we be for Big Nog) that beat Barnett two years ago. We can say Big Nog has gotten older, but dude was a Top 5 in his division at that point.

And, who has Barnett gone against recently? He beat Monson a year ago and then had Pedro frigin Rizzo and the other black guy whose name slips my mind recently.

And I won't hate on Cro Cop, if he is on his game, he is as legit as they come...gave Barnett three ass whoopings over the years.

 

[Liquidrob]

No way Cro Cop should fight Mir/Brock next if he wins Saturday. Cro Cop would have beaten an average dude in Al-Turk. Let Cro Cop have at Gonzaga again or even Carwin, first.

Why not? Cro Cop has paid his dues, if he wins why not let him fight Mir or Brock, would be great, there is no ryme or reason for any title shot

Both Nog and Brock beat Heath to get a title shot and Mir beat a 1-0 fighter to get a shot, a couple losses should not exclude Cro Cop how is a big name and has been an awesome fighter in the past

You cant waste Cro Cop if he is back in the UFC, should have gotten a shot right after the Eddie Sanchez fight the first time

 

[Liquidrob]

Mir is also fighting Big Nog, the same Big Nog (maybe not the same, but if we are giving Cro Cop credit for his hit list...shouldn't we be for Big Nog) that beat Barnett two years ago. We can say Big Nog has gotten older, but dude was a Top 5 in his division at that point.

And, who has Barnett gone against recently? He beat Monson a year ago and then had Pedro frigin Rizzo and the other black guy whose name slips my mind recently.

And I won't hate on Cro Cop, if he is on his game, he is as legit as they come...gave Barnett three ass whoopings over the years.

Nog looked like hell, he was Zombie Nog, yes it looks nice, but I havent seen Mir do anything yet to be considered a top HW, he only gets props because its a weak division and is the UFC HW champ (sort of)

Barnetts wins of note, Yvel, Rizzo, Monson, Nog, Hunt, Aleks, Schilt, Randy

Man, I wish Aleks would get his shit straight and fight again in a big show, so much promise

 

[Liquidrob]

found an interesting fun fact while searching through some records

Gilbert Yvel is 35-13-1

Has 30 TKO's and 5 Submission wins for a 100% finishing rate!

lol, you know you are in for a scrap when you fight Yvel and he might gouge your eyes out

 

[Liquidrob]

Now the fun part, trying to rank the top 10, comments, concerns and argueing will be welcomed

1. Fedor Emelianenko 30-1-0
2. Georges St. Pierre 18-2-0
3. Anderson 'And1' Silva 24-4-0
4. Miguel Torres 37-1-0
5. BJ Penn 13-5-1
6. Lyoto Machida 15-0-0
7. Quinton 'Rampage' Jackson 30-7-0
8. Mike Thomas Brown 22-4-0
9. Mauricio 'Shogun' Rua 18-3-0
10. Shinya Aoki 20-4-0

Thoughts? Who should be out? Who should be in? Your 10?

 

[EmpireWF]

Now the fun part, trying to rank the top 10, comments, concerns and argueing will be welcomed

1. Fedor Emelianenko 30-1-0
2. Georges St. Pierre 18-2-0
3. Anderson 'And1' Silva 24-4-0
4. Miguel Torres 37-1-0
5. BJ Penn 13-5-1
6. Lyoto Machida 15-0-0
7. Quinton 'Rampage' Jackson 30-7-0
8. Mike Thomas Brown 22-4-0
9. Mauricio 'Shogun' Rua 18-3-0
10. Shinya Aoki 20-4-0

Thoughts? Who should be out? Who should be in? Your 10?

top four are debatable but can't argue who's there.

You figure Penn, Machida and Rampage will be among the middle of the crop. No arguments here.

Mike Brown deserves a top 10 spot...I guess. Haven't given him much thought because a large part of his game is his awesome power.

No way should Aoki be here IMO. He was destroyed by Sakurai, but if everyone is the same size, does he still get destroyed?

my top 10 PFP would look like

1. GSP
2. Fedor
3. Anderson Silva
4. Torres
5. Machida
6. Penn
7. Rampage
8. Mike Brown
9. not sure, I'd still put Faber here.
10. Shogun or Hendo

Fitch, Florian, Aoki?, Evans would all be considered too

 

[Liquidrob]

top four are debatable but can't argue who's there.

You figure Penn, Machida and Rampage will be among the middle of the crop. No arguments here.

Mike Brown deserves a top 10 spot...I guess. Haven't given him much thought because a large part of his game is his awesome power.

No way should Aoki be here IMO. He was destroyed by Sakurai, but if everyone is the same size, does he still get destroyed?

my top 10 PFP would look like

1. GSP
2. Fedor
3. Anderson Silva
4. Torres
5. Machida
6. Penn
7. Rampage
8. Mike Brown
9. not sure, I'd still put Faber here.
10. Shogun or Hendo

Fitch, Florian, Aoki?, Evans would all be considered too

Fitch is very good, whats hurts him is his biggest wins would be Diego who is now 155 and Alves, Fitch is a super hard worker, probably would be the champ of 170 if GSP wasnt there, but he just doesnt have a signature win to go along with his skill set, Fitch is right there though

Florian no way, besides BJ the UFC doesnt have the top flight LWs, Joe Daddy and Huerta dont cut it, skill set wise he is very solid though, he has improved a lot from his TUF days

Rashad was up there because of an undefeated record and his overall skill, but drops like a rock with the loss because all he has to fall back on is a Ttio draw, Bisping win a 185er now and Forrest win

I had resevations about Aoki in the top 10, Sakuri losses are not that bad seeing the size Sakuri can big compared to Aoki, but wins over Alvarez, JZ and Hansen are huge and he has fought 9 times since 08, thats crazy plus his 1 skill is probably the best in MMA

I think Hendo or Forrest would be the guys to bump Aoki if I had to do it over again

I would love to put Faber, but 2 losses in a row to Brown gets him bumped

 

[Liquidrob]

Some other top 10 rankings from other MMA websites

Yahoo's top 10 p4p

1. Fedor Emelianenko (29-1-1)
1. Georges St-Pierre (18-2)
3. Anderson Silva (23-4)
4. Miguel Angel Torres (36-1)
5. Rashad Evans (13-0-1)
6. BJ Penn (13-5-1)
7. Lyoto Machida (14-0)
8. Quinton Jackson (30-7)
9. Mike Brown (21-4)
10. Urijah Faber (22-2)

Sherdog's top 10 p4p

1. Silva
2. GSP
3. Fedor
4. Machida
5. Torres
6. Penn
7. Rampage
8. Mike Brown
9. Alves
10. Evans

Fight Matrix

1. Georges St. Pierre
2. Anderson Silva
3. Fedor Emelianenko
4. Miguel Torres
5. Mike Thomas Brown
6. Lyoto Machida
7. Shinichi Kojima
8. Quinton Jackson
9. Thiago Alves
10. Jake Shields

MMA News

1. Fedor Emelianenko
2. Anderson Silva
3. Georges St. Pierre
4. Lyoto Machida
5. Miguel Torres
6. Rashad Evans
7. BJ Penn
8. Quinton Jackson
9. Thiago Alves
10. Mike Brown

 

[Steel Mamba]

Gonna make a few changes to my old P4P list:

+ (stock on the rise, guys I see moving higher pretty soon)
- (dropping)
+- (neutral)

1. GSP
2. Anderson Silva +
3. Fedor
4. Machida +
5. Torres +
6. BJ Penn
7. Rampage - (Still haven't been overly impressed with his UFC performances, Rampage will always remain a top LHW contender, but I can see some guys moving ahead of him in P4P if he doesn't start showing that total game that he had back in Pride)
8. Shogun +- (Neutral, Shogun can move either way at this point. If the Shogun from Pride is back he's going to be moving up. If the Shogun that fought Mark Coleman resurfaces then he could move back down)
9. Mike Brown +-
10. Faber +-

Honorable Mention:

Sean Sherk, Nick Diaz, Jon Fitch, Jake Shields, Aoki, Rashad Evans, Randy Couture, Frank Mir, and Hendo.

 

[LiquidLarry2GhostWF]

1. Fedor
- The king stay the king.

2a. Anderson Silva
2b. GSP
2c. Miguel Torres
-You can't really distinguish any of these guys from one another...all just dominant.

5. BJ Penn
6. Lyoto Machida
- Machida jumps Penn with a good showing at his first defense. He'll have to dominate for a while to enter the that next tier.

7. Rampage
8. Shogun
9. Brown
10. Shields

HM: Aoki, Evans, Faber, Alves, Fitch
- You could pretty much interchange anyone from 7-15+ and it not make a difference to me. Put Shields in to be a little different...I can't remember the last time he lost. I don't think I was of drinking age yet. Aoki, Evans, and Faber are coming off losses. Alves had one of the best years of anyone in the Octagon. I find it tough to rate Brown so highly, but I figure I have to do it considering he's the champ and put Faber down twice and I would have put Faber in the top 10 if he won...I just think, where was Brown ranked before the Faber fights? I'd guess no where near the Top 15 p4p.

 

[Liquidrob]

I love how Bob '145 guru' Kuzzy called me crazy for putting Brown in the top 10, but now almost every p4p ranking sites have Browm in the top 10 and so do the rest of the VSN MMA guys

I would love to see Kuzzy's top 10 list since he is so sure Brown isnt in it

 

[Liquidrob]

Gonna make a few changes to my old P4P list:

+ (stock on the rise, guys I see moving higher pretty soon)
- (dropping)
+- (neutral)

1. GSP
2. Anderson Silva +
3. Fedor
4. Machida +
5. Torres +
6. BJ Penn
7. Rampage - (Still haven't been overly impressed with his UFC performances, Rampage will always remain a top LHW contender, but I can see some guys moving ahead of him in P4P if he doesn't start showing that total game that he had back in Pride)
8. Shogun +- (Neutral, Shogun can move either way at this point. If the Shogun from Pride is back he's going to be moving up. If the Shogun that fought Mark Coleman resurfaces then he could move back down)
9. Mike Brown +-
10. Faber +-

Honorable Mention:

Sean Sherk, Nick Diaz, Jon Fitch, Jake Shields, Aoki, Rashad Evans, Randy Couture, Frank Mir, and Hendo.

I dont agree with your rankings, but I do like the 'rise, dropping and neutral', nice add on

but I find it funny that Silva is on the rise at 2, but Fedor who is fighting the number 2 HW in the world is not on the rise and guys like Machida and Torres under him can pass him up according to your system it seems

 

[Kuzzy Powers]

I love how Bob '145 guru' Kuzzy called me crazy for putting Brown in the top 10, but now almost every p4p ranking sites have Browm in the top 10 and so do the rest of the VSN MMA guys

I would love to see Kuzzy's top 10 list since he is so sure Brown isnt in it

I already posted a top 10 in the other thread. Id do some tweaking to it however. Still wouldnt include Brown tho. If Brown whipes the floor with Aldo, I will strongly consider him for the top 10.

BTW, as it relates to those sites.. I think a lot of them were forced to include Brown bcus they had Faber in there before and its tough to put Faber ahead of Brown after 2 losses. IMO I still think Faber is the better fighter, and I still believe he would've avenged his loss if he didnt break his hands. That being said, I myself wouldnt put Faber ahead of Brown anymore bcus thats simply not fair to Brown after 2 victories. But I really do believe Urijah wins that fight with a healthy right.

BTW im really digging the nickname "145 guru". Pls only refer to me as that from now on.

 

[Liquidrob]

1. Fedor
- The king stay the king.

2a. Anderson Silva
2b. GSP
2c. Miguel Torres
-You can't really distinguish any of these guys from one another...all just dominant.

5. BJ Penn
6. Lyoto Machida
- Machida jumps Penn with a good showing at his first defense. He'll have to dominate for a while to enter the that next tier.

7. Rampage
8. Shogun
9. Brown
10. Shields

HM: Aoki, Evans, Faber, Alves, Fitch
- You could pretty much interchange anyone from 7-15+ and it not make a difference to me. Put Shields in to be a little different...I can't remember the last time he lost. I don't think I was of drinking age yet. Aoki, Evans, and Faber are coming off losses. Alves had one of the best years of anyone in the Octagon. I find it tough to rate Brown so highly, but I figure I have to do it considering he's the champ and put Faber down twice and I would have put Faber in the top 10 if he won...I just think, where was Brown ranked before the Faber fights? I'd guess no where near the Top 15 p4p.

Nice rankings, but get off the fence and put them in order, it wont hurt there feelings!

Shouldnt be tough to rate Brown, actually he is kind of like when Silva burst onto the UFC scene, Silva and Brown were both good figthers, but no one was going crazy over them than they come and and beat a champ twice who was dominate for a long time in Faber and Rich and Silva was right in the mix after that just like Brown is now

Case could be made that Uriah was/is better than Rich which I think he was anyway

Actually, Silva was in the mix after beating Leben, Rich and than Lutter, so putting Brown in for beating Uriah, Garcia and Uriah again is not that hard to do