The breakdown of P4P meaning and fighters

[SHOGUN]

Steel Mamba again with a bass ackwards double standard.

You claim that Fedor hasn't been fighting top guys (even though his last three opponents have been consensus Top 10; something NONE of the UFC HWs can claim in the same stretch), but Penn beats the shit out of another mid-tier WW on a diet and suddenly he's close to cleaning out 155? Not even close. Either your standards are inconsistent or you must think extremely high of the UFC's LW division. Alvarez, Aoki, Kawajiri and Melendez are the guys he has to go through for that claim.

 

[Steel Mamba]

your list is your list, but I will debate this point, Fedor already cleaned out the best HW division in Pride and than continued to beat 3 straight top 10 HW's, Barnett would have been great, but oh well, BJ is beating guys who have failed at 170 and found on TUF, just because he is in the UFC doesnt make the division stacked

BJ has come back and beat Jens Pulver (huh?), Joe Daddy (lol), Sherk (post juice), Ken Flo (Best guy he beat but who has Ken Flo beat?) and Diego (Yes!)

Is that really something special? I love Penn but he is not fighting the best LW's in the world, he just isnt, the UFC doesnt pay for the best LWs' and don't bring in the best LW's besides BJ

I guess it depends on how you look at it. In 2005 Fedor was easily the #1 P4P fighter in the world.. But now?? When we're talking about current P4P best I think it's really about what have you done for me lately. On the other hand if I was making an all time best list then no doubt Fedor gets that #1 spot without argument. IMO the two are different.

So keep 2 things in mind - 1 you know overall skill and ability comes first over resumes with me. With that said who's the better all around fighter? It's splitting hairs but I would go with Penn on that. Penn edges him out standing, Fedor takes GnP and wrestling, while Penn also outs him in BJJ and Takedown Defense. So I don't think it's much of a stretch to put BJ ahead of Fedor right now.

2. I'm putting things into current perspective. Tim Sylvia and AA have been EXPOSED.

Basically like I already said sure Fedor would probably smash everyone in the UFC, but again there's a difference between probably and actually doing it.

Also what I think is obviously going on is that you guys are severely. Severely! underestimating Sean Sherk.

So we have:

Ken Flo
Sean Sherk
Diego

vs

Hong Man
Sylvia
AA
Rogers


Not exactly a star studded list by either guy, but yeah I'm giving the nod to Penn mainly because of Sherk.

 

[EmpireWF]

If they were the same size, who would win? Fedor or Penn?

 

[Steel Mamba]

If they were the same size, who would win? Fedor or Penn?

I think Fedor has shown that he's very susceptible standing, yeah he still knocked AA and Rogers out, but those two aren't nearly as elusive or fundamentally sound as Penn is. So I think Penn cold avoid Fedors power and work him striking. Size being equal I think Fedor has a hard time getting and keeping Penn down.

 

[Kuzzy Powers]

Double post fail.. to make up for it heres Gina Carano getting her tit squeezed + others.

But never sleep on..

She'd make my top 10 p4p womens list..

 

[Kuzzy Powers]

1. Georges St. Pierre - Simply the best in the world, IMO.

2. Fedor Emelianko - Maybe losing his touch a BIT and I still think is prone to getting caught in the future if he continues to take beatings, but still arguably 1b to GSP.

3. Anderson Silva - Undeniable at this point. Could make a legit case for #1.. hes a top 3 guy until proven otherwise.

4. Lyoto Machida - Regardless of tainted Shogun result, still undefeated and still very dominant in many of his fights. Elite talent level that is only matched by few.

5. BJ Penn - Dominant at LW. Doesnt get to face top level talent, prevents him from getting any higher on the list.

6. Jose Aldo - The creeper up the list. Dominated Mike Brown who had looked very good. has been nearly untouchable in his fighting career.

7. Quinton Jackson - Altho hes been a bit unactive, I still cant argue with the resume, and altho the record book shows otherwise, I still dont think Quinton has legitimately lost a fight since 2006, in brutal fashion.. to #9 on this list. Pains me to put him ahead of Rashad but its real homie.

8. Gegard Mousasi - Still untapped potential but already near elite status. Seems to be like Fedor in the fact that he almost wants his opponents to believe they can win the fight, only to crush their dreams in brutal fashion.

9. Shogun Rua - Proved me wrong by coming in great shape against Machida and going back to his old dominant form. If he can retain this he has top 5 potential, no doubt. Already holds moral victory over top 5er in Machida.

10. Rashad Evans - A little bias but I needed to get my dude on the list. Not the most impressive victory against Silva, but this is p4p.. and p4p when Rashad fights HIS game, hes a top 10 guy, IMO.

Honourables:

Nick Diaz - Really wanted to put him on the list but he gets bumped because of Rashad and Shogun. Dudes boxing is elite within MMA and could get any fighter a run for his money in p4p form.

Jake Shields - Boring but effective. Shields isnt very exciting but hes gets it done with his very effective grappling and strong submission skills.

Dan Henderson - Labelled passed his prime by yours truly, and altho I still stand by that, Hendo past his prime is still better then the majority of the fight world.

Urijah Faber - If Urijah can find a way to beat Jose Aldo he'll immediately get back onto the list for me, and probably pretty high, too. I still believe hes the better fighter then Mike Brown and would've won that 2nd fight, but its all hindsight now.

Shinya Aoki - Doesnt get a ton of love from me cause I dont watch a ton of Japanese MMA, but the grappling level is as good as it gets so he atleast deserves an honourable here.

Brock Lesnar - Just to irk a couple people. Really though, another HW deserved love here and I rank Brock ahead of guys like Cain, Nog, and Frank Mir.

After Aldo most of the guys in the top 10 are interchangeable. Its pretty messy after that IMO.

 

[SHOGUN]

Mamba, you can argue skillset and if your basis was solely around I wouldn't have a problem, but your resume argument is wrong.

The problem is that Fedor's list is a star-studded list, regardless of whether you want to spin 'perspective', as two of the four were Top 3 at the time they fought and were the biggest names of the division in MMA during that time. I don't see how they were 'exposed' as anything other than inferior fighters to Fedor. You mean they weren't the demi-gods that Dana White promoted and hyped up to be? Of course they weren't, and just because Dana threw them under the bus after they lost does not mean we should simply neglect what they were at the time.

You are letting the fact that he isn't in the UFC cracking the new kids' skulls cloud your judgment when it shouldn't have weight on who he is facing/already faced. I don't understand how you can argue a strength of schedule of #4, #10, #15 at best is somehow better than #3, #2, and #8.

And Sherk is far from underrated. He's always been a fringe Top 10 LW that would sneak into the Top 8 on occasion with a well-timed loss or two.

 

[Steel Mamba]

Mamba, you can argue skillset and if your basis was solely around I wouldn't have a problem, but your resume argument is wrong.

The problem is that Fedor's list is a star-studded list, regardless of whether you want to spin 'perspective', as two of the four were Top 3 at the time they fought and were the biggest names of the division in MMA during that time. I don't see how they were 'exposed' as anything other than inferior fighters to Fedor. You mean they weren't the demi-gods that Dana White promoted and hyped up to be? Of course they weren't, and just because Dana threw them under the bus after they lost does not mean we should simply neglect what they were at the time.

Dana White didn't throw Tim Sylvia under the bus, Ray Mercer did. Ray Mercer was the bus. That's what I mean by getting exposed.

You are letting the fact that he isn't in the UFC cracking the new kids' skulls cloud your judgment when it shouldn't have weight on who he is facing/already faced. I don't understand how you can argue a strength of schedule of #4, #10, #15 at best is somehow better than #3, #2, and #8.

And Sherk is far from underrated. He's always been a fringe Top 10 LW that would sneak into the Top 8 on occasion with a well-timed loss or two.

Ken Flow #4 and Sherk #10? I think that should be reversed so I'm in huge disagreement with you there along with AA/Sylvia being 2/3. Over Big Nog and Barnett at that time? Sylvia wouldn't even have been higher than Couture, so wherever you have Couture at Sylvia should at least be one spot below.

 

[Liquidrob]

Skill set Penn can be 1 or 2, super complete guy, only thing he lacks would be 1 hit KO power, but you borught up cleaning out a division and comp

Sherk is nothing special, he should have lost a decision to Diaz at 155, than the UFC made up a title between him and Ken Flo, lol @ that, the title is pretty much useless besides Penn having it

Beats Hermes by decision, gets busted for juice, BJ tears him up, he decisions Tyson and losses to Edgar

 

[SHOGUN]

Dana White didn't throw Tim Sylvia under the bus, Ray Mercer did. Ray Mercer was the bus. That's what I mean by getting exposed.

I can accept this argument for Sylvia, but how did Arlvoski get exposed?

Ken Flow #4 and Sherk #10? I think that should be reversed so I'm in huge disagreement with you there along with AA/Sylvia being 2/3. Over Big Nog and Barnett at that time? Sylvia wouldn't even have been higher than Couture, so wherever you have Couture at Sylvia should at least be one spot below.

Why do keep thinking I'm just making shit up? I feel like you're insulting my intelligence.

[SHERDOG] July 2008 before Fedor/Sylvia: 1. Fedor 2. Big Nog 3. Couture* 4. Sylvia 5. Arlovski
Couture was in the middle of a contract dispute and hadn't fought in over a year at this point.

[SHERDOG] Dec 2008 before Fedor/Arlovski: 1. Fedor 2. Arlovski 3. Barnett 4. Mir 5. Big Nog
Mir just beat the hell out of sick Big Nog at this point and Arlovski KO'd Rothwell and Nelson.

Sherk prior to Penn - [SHERDOG] #8
Sherk after Penn - [BE] #9, [SHERDOG] #10
Florian prior to Penn - [BE]#2, [SHERDOG]#5

I disagree with Bloody Elbow and Sherdogs rankings regularly, but they do paint a decent picture of what the scene was like when the fights took place.

 

[Steel Mamba]

I didn't say you were making anything up, I just said that I disagreed. Plus I didn't know you were citing those rankings from somewhere. I think sherdog had Kenny and Sylvia way too high.

 

[Liquidrob]

Updated

1. Georges St. Pierre
2. Anderson Silva
3. Fedor Emelianenko
4. Shogun Rua
5. Gilbert Melendez
6. Jose Aldo
7. Eddie Alvarez
8. Nick Diaz
9. Hatsu Hioki
10. Ronaldo 'Jacare' Souza

Honorable mentions: Alistair Overeem, Gegard Mousasi, Cain Velasquez, Frankie Edgar, Dominick Cruz

 

[EmpireWF]

How do you have Melendez over Aldo.

Am surprised you have Diaz below Gil and Alvarez.

Not shocked you don't have Edgar up there but damn.

Fedor still in that 3 spot is tickytack. I know he was only caught and it could happen to any human, but Shogun has looked like a beast of late.

 

[Steel Mamba]

1. Anderson Silva -
2. GSP +
3. Frankie Edgar +
4. Jose Aldo +-
5. Cain Velasquez +
6. Fedor -
7. Dominick Cruz +-
8. Shogun Rua +-
9. Jake Shields -
10. Jon Fitch -

 

[Liquidrob]

Diaz be boxing fools up