The breakdown of P4P meaning and fighters

[Warner2BruceTD]

But in the case of Bowles/Torres, they arent 1-1. It's 1-0 Bowles.

Everyone loses, i'm not killing Torres for that, i'm probably a bigger Torres fan than most. I'd have ranked him 4th before the Bowles fight.

To me, the Bowles loss knocks Torres out completely, and I wouldnt put Bowles in the top 10, either...ironically, for all the same reasons everyone else dosent. He needs another landmark win. My issue is ranking Torres, but not ranking the guy who just beat him. I understand your pov, I just dont agree with it.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

Oh and there was nothing fluky about Mir or Serra's win.

I'm the first one to say a win is a win, but in the context of this discussion, where its all splitting hairs, you can call both of those wins fluke wins.

It would be hard to find anyone who wouldnt agree that GSP & Lesnar would beat Serra & Mir 9 out of 10 times, based on how all four fights went.

Frank Mir fought Brock Lesnar twice, and had the upper hand for roughly 5 seconds. C'mon.

Nobody would pick Serra to beat GSP again, not even Serra if he was being honest.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

Anyway Ws and Ls is just fine when comparing guys within the same division, but when you're talking about P4P you have to go by skill to determine who's the best because guys in different weight classes will never have the opportunity to fight against the same people. So, how is that a fair or accurate way to compare P4P? When talking P4P who they've fought is only important to justify that their skill has been displayed against top level opponents, but still overall ability and skill is most important here.

Torres and Bowles are in the same divsion, fought each other, and Bowles won.

That's what I meant by putting too much weight in subjectives. You are agreeing with me, and don't even realise it.

 

[Steel Mamba]

I'm the first one to say a win is a win, but in the context of this discussion, where its all splitting hairs, you can call both of those wins fluke wins.

It would be hard to find anyone who wouldnt agree that GSP & Lesnar would beat Serra & Mir 9 out of 10 times, based on how all four fights went.

Frank Mir fought Brock Lesnar twice, and had the upper hand for roughly 5 seconds. C'mon.

Nobody would pick Serra to beat GSP again, not even Serra if he was being honest.

That doesn't make their win a fluke though. Both guys went in with a solid gameplan and executed it, what they accomplished wasn't by luck. A fluke win is when someone closes their eyes and throws an overhand right while their opponent is in mi..well nevermind.. I won't get into that... While there's no doubt who the better fighter is in those cases above you still can't say those fights were flukes.

 

[Liquidrob]

I actually like your list W2B except for adding Brock, we havent even seen him fight someone close to his weight, besides his fight fight being against Mir he has had some good match making, not saying he has had the easy road, but its been in his favor

Heath doesnt have TD defense or sub anyone, Randy doesnt go for subs and likes to wrestle but was like 50 lbs less than Brock, nice win and so was Mir in the rematch, Brock gets credit for jumping in without really 'warm up' fights

Carwin is a good match because he is actually Brocks size, but Brock might take him out because Carwin is pretty slow, tough to match Brock up because they dont really have guys his size

Match ups I like for Brock in the UFC would be

Carwin because he is big, strong and can wrestle
Nog because of his skill level, only Fedor has really hurt him in his guard, would be a great match up
Gonzaga has ground skills and can throw heavy strikes, would be an interesting fight
Cain has cardio and took some bombs from Kongo and kept going
Cro Cop if he can stop 1 or 2 TDs, if not he is going to get smashed

 

[Liquidrob]

I just noticed something on your list W2B

You put Gilbert Melendez in your top 10 which is fine, Gil is great, but Josh Thomson beat Gil and they both 16-2, Gil has fought twice and Josh once since there fight

 

[Steel Mamba]

Torres and Bowles are in the same divsion, fought each other, and Bowles won.

That's what I meant by putting too much weight in subjectives. You are agreeing with me, and don't even realise it.

I don't agree unless you feel that skill is always the #1 factor with P4P. You can't argue that Bowles is not the top of his division right now, he's the champ, but I don't see him in P4P talks just yet. That's the difference and like Rob mentioned earlier would you have Forrest over Rampage in P4P talks? Head to head matches mean a lot, but it can't be the be all end all either.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

I really don't want to debate Brock, which is why I never bothered to defend it after the flaming. I'll just say this--if his name wasnt Brock Lesnar, and he was fresh out of college, never having commited the sin of being a phoney baloney pro wrestler, and everything else about his career was identical, alot of people would see him differently.

To me, Bowles being unbeaten in the rugged WEC at that weight, and knocking off Torres in impressive fashion, it's hard for me to get my mind wrapped around the idea of ranking Torres ahead of him. I mean, you don't need to dig deep and do the typical p4p analysis here...Bowles beat him!

Rank 'em both, with Bowles ahead, no problem. Leave 'em both off, no problem. Rank Torres, but not Bowles? I think you're thinking too hard.

 

[Liquidrob]

P4P debates are always the best topic, I don’t care what anyone says, besides the threads for the fights you don’t get the type of participation and breakdown of fighters in the other threads and they usually die out

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

I just noticed something on your list W2B

You put Gilbert Melendez in your top 10 which is fine, Gil is great, but Josh Thomson beat Gil and they both 16-2, Gil has fought twice and Josh once since there fight

I was waiting for you to bring that up.

Thompson in inactive, and constantly hurt, and i'm sick of it.

How's that for deep analysis?

Seriously though, inactivity.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

I don't agree unless you feel that skill is always the #1 factor with P4P. You can't argue that Bowles is not the top of his division right now, he's the champ, but I don't see him in P4P talks just yet. That's the difference and like Rob mentioned earlier would you have Forrest over Rampage in P4P talks? Head to head matches mean a lot, but it can't be the be all end all either.

Neither do I.

I just dont agree with the logic of ranking Torres, but not Bowles. To me, that's overanalysis.

And I already answered the Forrest/Rampage question...unlike Bowles/Torres, alot has happened since that fight that changes things. Bowles/Torres is the last thing we have to judge either guy. Right now, Bowles is better.

 

[Liquidrob]

I really don't want to debate Brock, which is why I never bothered to defend it after the flaming. I'll just say this--if his name wasnt Brock Lesnar, and he was fresh out of college, never having commited the sin of being a phoney baloney pro wrestler, and everything else about his career was identical, alot of people would see him differently.

I didnt flame, most havent, maybe just 1 guy

Brock got the fast track because of his Pro Wrestling exploits, that cant be denied, I dont hate the guy, he is a monster right now, but his hype machine is out of control

Josh Koscheck has as good of a college wrestling background as Brock, was 2-0 in small shows, went on TUF, than went 7-1 with a sub loss to Ficket in the UFC, overall was 9-1 at that point and fought GSP and lost, wasnt even a title shot at this point

The difference would be Kos is fighting guys his same weight and Brock is 30-50 lbs heavier in all his fights so far, thats is not Brocks fault, that is just HW MMA, what do you think Kos would be is he had 30-50 lbs on everyone? lol

Brock and his fans need to take the good and the bad, he got a title shot after being 1-1 in the UFC in his 3rd fight ever, but he has proved he is legit though and I look forward to watching his next fight, he is a natural fighter IMO

 

[Liquidrob]

I was waiting for you to bring that up.

Thompson in inactive, and constantly hurt, and i'm sick of it.

How's that for deep analysis?

Seriously though, inactivity.

Gil fought twice and Josh fought once since there fight

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

Gil fought twice and Josh fought once since there fight

Gil has fought twice this year, and KO'd Rodrigo Damm & beat Ishida in impressive fashion. Two legit guys.

Thompson hasnt fought since September 2008, and beat a bum.

Thompson has pulled out of two fights with Gil due to injury, and is still on the shelf. He will go something like 15 months between fights by the time he gets in the ring. Dude is inactive.

A health Thompson would be my #10 over Gil, but it is what it is. I wouldn't argue either way,

 

[Liquidrob]

I will say I am starting to like Brock, he showed a lot of solid technique in the Mir fight and completely shutdown Mir's ground game, I still dont know why Mir was playing half guard, but I already talked about that in another thread

 

[LiquidLarry2GhostWF]

Brock is a beast, but its tough throwing a guy with his short shelf life so far, into a P4P discussion.

In one fight, Brock went from a guy on the outside of most Top 10 Heavyweights list to a Top 2'r and into the Top 10 P4P...seems like a bit of a jump for beating Murr.

 

[Liquidrob]

I think this goes to my point that the majority of people jump on the next big thing to quickly and to much stock is put into everyone last fight

I already hear the Todd Duffee beating Fedor underground movement, lol

 

[Kuzzy Powers]

I think this goes to my point that the majority of people jump on the next big thing to quickly and to much stock is put into everyone last fight

I already hear the Todd Duffee beating Fedor underground movement, lol

Not only would he beat him, but he wouldnt touch gloves with him before doing it.

 

[RKO BLACK RKO]

^ agreed

 

[Liquidrob]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dlnxULWyX5k&feature=player_embedded"]YouTube - Miguel Torres - Hurt [highlights][/ame]