This lame trend...(long rant)

[Nukleopatra]

remember when Bress missed that easy FG when he lost to the Jets in the playoffs?

Drew Brees vs. Chad Pennington : 2004/2005.

Drew Brees: 3 TDs, 3 INTs.
Chad Pennington: 4 TDs, 0 INTs.

Result - San Diego goes 0-2 against the Jets. The quarterback who made less mistakes, won both games.

After looking it up, my memory did serve me correctly..

 

[Shayn•Da•Pain]

A top 5 QB should have torn right through that defense all game long. Hell a top 20 QB should have. Maybe we've improved that much..

Possibly. But Palmer answered the call when it mattered and came up with a late game drive to take the lead. The rest of the game is pointless to debate. 63 completion rate isn't bad, and the turnovers he threw weren't much to worry about. Palmer is still a good QB, top 10, not in my eyes. Never rated him top 10, even when he was overrated a few years ago. But this argument against him right now is flimsy and he's at least better than the picture Nuk paints.

 

[Shayn•Da•Pain]

Drew Brees vs. Chad Pennington : 2004/2005.

Drew Brees: 3 TDs, 3 INTs.
Chad Pennington: 4 TDs, 0 INTs.

Result - San Diego goes 0-2 against the Jets. The quarterback who made less mistakes, won both games.

After looking it up, my memory did serve me correctly..

So remind me why we're bringing up random games from 4 years ago? :crazy:

 

[Nukleopatra]

So remind me why we're bringing up random games from 4 years ago? :crazy:

Some dumbass thought he was smarter than he is, by bringing up the missed FG from 2004/2005.

Missed FG or not, the better quarterback on those two days, won the game.

Basically, this thread is now about grasping for straws, since the win/losses aren't in the players favor.

 

[Shayn•Da•Pain]

Some dumbass thought he was smarter than he is, by bringing up the missed FG from 2004/2005.

Missed FG or not, the better quarterback on those two days, won the game.

Basically, this thread is now about grasping for straws, since the win/losses aren't in the players favor.

Grasping straws is for babies. That said Great QB's lose football games too. The difference between the great ones and Brees is coaching. You think Bill Walsh would have let Brees throw for 5,000 yards last season and go 8-8? Hell no. Walsh would have put together a fucking game plan and take home some wins when it counted. Payton thinks, bad D? Hell I'll just outscore them with offense...doesn't work that way. :tocktock:

It's ALLLL coaching. Brees has proven he has the arm to make amazing plays, that's what we're talking about here, quarterback play. If you want to discuss wins baby, lets talk coaching. You don't use your Brees to win games, you use your BRAIN. :tocktock:

 

[bucky]

And in those game his D had what, 1 takeaway?


Think people think.

Really? His defense is now throwing those Ints? And I have to think? The D has nothing to do with bad throws and poor QB decisions. The D does have something to do with Wins and Losses.

 

[Shayn•Da•Pain]

Really? His defense is now throwing those Ints? And I have to think? The D has nothing to do with bad throws and poor QB decisions. The D does have something to do with Wins and Losses.

So you are saying the D has something to do with Wins and Losses. Excellent, you're in my pocket on this then.

 

[Liquidrob]

Drew Brees vs. Chad Pennington : 2004/2005.

Drew Brees: 3 TDs, 3 INTs.
Chad Pennington: 4 TDs, 0 INTs.

Result - San Diego goes 0-2 against the Jets. The quarterback who made less mistakes, won both games.

After looking it up, my memory did serve me correctly..

the point is many factors come into a game, not just the QBs stats

 

[bucky]

I like this comparison of HOF QB's and Favre (who is obviously one foot in the HOF door). But the difference in winning the big games were obviously coaching. Who was Montana's coach? Starr's coach? Favre's coach? And how many super bowls do those coaches have? Now tell me how Payton's teams stack up against those teams? exactly. It's a lot more to do with a fully functional teams than simply QB's.

But QB's can't be adding problems by poor decisions with ints. And you blame those Farve playoff interceptions on coaching? I suppose the coach didn't get the QB's to make better decisions, other than that, you have to blame the QB's.

 

[Shayn•Da•Pain]

the point is many factors come into a game, not just the QBs stats

perfect post. Although I'm not sure why I had to bold it.

 

[MrBill]

John Elway was one of the greatest QBs to ever play even with going 0-3 in the super bowl, when he had a run game and a better team he won 2 in a row, he didnt become a better QB in those 2 super bowls, he just had a better team

This was exactly the example I was going to cite. Going into Superbowl XXXI, the line had Denver losing and Elway becoming the worst SB QB of the modern era. People view him as the QB after his last two Superbowl appearances and that player was probably worse then the Elway that appeared in the first three and lost.

 

[Nukleopatra]

the point is many factors come into a game, not just the QBs stats

Of course.

But you have to admit, having the better quarterback on kickoff, certainly does help.

And during those two games, which you brought up, Drew Brees, again, was not the better leader.

 

[bucky]

So you are saying the D has something to do with Wins and Losses. Excellent, you're in my pocket on this then.

Yeah, but the D doesn't throw interceptions, neither does the coach. That's were we differ.

 

[Shayn•Da•Pain]

But QB's can't be adding problems by poor decisions with ints. And you blame those Farve playoff interceptions on coaching? I suppose the coach didn't get the QB's to make better decisions, other than that, you have to blame the QB's.

Did I target Favre and any of his interceptions? I don't remember doing that. And no, Andy Reid will tell you today that you couldn't coach Favre out of an INT. But Andy did coach the Packers to some Super Bowls around Favre's turnover happy ass. I mean Andy allowed Favre to throw less than 24 times per game in the '96 playoffs when they won the SB.

That Packers defense was much better than NO's defense has ever been. Andy put that together. Payton hasn't proved he can manage a football team from a personnel standpoint, he's horrible at game planning, and he has yet to adapt in game time situations where he has to in order to win. He's consistant in that he sucks.

It was said of Don Shula, he could beat you with his team, and turn around and beat you with your team. This has to be the most telling statement in all of Football, that coaches dictate victories.

 

[bucky]

That Packers defense was much better than NO's defense has ever been. Andy put that together. Payton hasn't proved he can manage a football team from a personnel standpoint, he's horrible at game planning, and he has yet to adapt in game time situations where he has to in order to win. He's consistant in that he sucks.
.

And how does that excuse poor QB decision making?

I don't look at just Wins and Losses like some others when evaluating a QB. I don't think losing makes a QB bad. There is a lot more to it like you have said. But if a QB has bad coaching, bad D, etc, that doesn't excuse poor decision making on by the QB. Brees has to lose the "mistakes" in big games whether the Saints win or lose before I can consider him a clutch QB. Stop making excuses for poor plays by the QB.

 

[Nukleopatra]

It was said of Don Shula, he could beat you with his team, and turn around and beat you with your team. This has to be the most telling statement in all of Football, that coaches dictate victories.

Why hasn't Jeff Fisher won a superbowl yet?

Oh yeah, Steve McNair.

Why didn't Mikey win anything after Elway?

A good head coach really isn't shit without a good leader running his show. Of course, Sean Payton is going to get the blame, that's not even in question. He's already being given credit for having one of the worst post 3rd quarter records (when trailing) in NFL history as the Saints HC, but what very few people realize, is that Drew Brees was his starting quarterback from day 1, so that record also falls on Brees shoulders, too.

Did you know they both were 0-18 at one point?

Look it up, you'll find a couple articles that'll have you laughing your ass off. Sorry, but I'm not buying into the whole ''great coach wins/loses games.'' At least not to the extent you do.

 

[Shayn•Da•Pain]

Yeah, but the D doesn't throw interceptions, neither does the coach. That's were we differ.

Ah, but the coach calls the plays. The coach is in control of teaching his QB what reads to make, and where to put the ball. The coach controls the game plan. The coach controls every aspect of the game, so if the QB makes a turnover, he damn sure better be able to adapt and find a way to put his team back into position to win. If a QB is losing because of turnovers consistantly, it's time to change game plans. Can Brees make great throws? Yes. Does he have to play in an offense that throws 35 plus times per game? No. Would NO win more games if they were to run the ball a little more? Maybe. There is a reason why it's called ball control offense, something the Saints haven't tried in a few years.

EXTRA EXTRA
I got news for you, stats lie. Many of those INT's that keep getting thrown out there in conversation are late game heroics from behind. These throws are typically high percentage for INT's when the defense knows what's coming. In reallity each game had more problems than just the picks. Like why are the Saints always trailing in the 4th quarter? I don't know many great teams that trail late in the game as often as the Saints do. At least my Steelers don't trail as often anyhow. Get a lead and hold the lead Payton, you fucking suck.

 

[bucky]

Ah, but the coach calls the plays. The coach is in control of teaching his QB what reads to make, and where to put the ball. The coach controls the game plan. The coach controls every aspect of the game
.

I'm beginning to understand.

It's not the QB's fault for throwing an int, it's the coaches for calling a bad play and not coaching the QB well enough with decision making and ball security.

It's not the O-Lineman's fault for missing the block, it's the coaches for calling the play and putting the O-Lineman in a position to have to make the block, and not coaching the player well enough.

It's not the HB's fault he fumbled the ball, it's the coaches fault for calling the running play and not teaching the HB how to take care of the ball and not fumble.

How convenient. In your world every player is a HOF'er!!!!!!

 

[Shayn•Da•Pain]

Why hasn't Jeff Fisher won a superbowl yet?

Oh yeah, Steve McNair.

whoaw...wait a minute... 1 yard remember lol

Why didn't Mikey win anything after Elway?

He was 91-68, with 4 playoff apperances and lost the Div championship to New England in '05. And remember Plumber was his QB...fucking Plumber! uke:

A good head coach really isn't shit without a good leader running his show. Of course, Sean Payton is going to get the blame, that's not even in question. He's already being given credit for having one of the worst post 3rd quarter records (when trailing) in NFL history as the Saints HC, but what very few people realize, is that Drew Brees was his starting quarterback from day 1, so that record also falls on Brees shoulders, too.

Did you know they both were 0-18 at one point?

Dilfer, Doug Williams, Jim McMahon, Jeff Hostetler...yeah great Coaches need great leaders...ok

But then again how many Great QB's don't win the super bowl? An whole hell of a lot, and why? Most people say it's because their team sucked, well who's responsible for that? Often times the head coach, although I'll admit some teams have problems with upper management...Why else? Gameplanning...Payton is a perfect example of this. He's got one game plan and that just can't win against a ball control team with a solid defense.

Look it up, you'll find a couple articles that'll have you laughing your ass off. Sorry, but I'm not buying into the whole ''great coach wins/loses games.'' At least not to the extent you do.

Don't get me wrong, I'm just saying if ANYBODY, that is ANY ONE SINGLE PERSON, has blame for losing big games, or not making the playoffs, it's the head coach. I agree, good coaches need good QB's. It works both ways, it's somewhere in the middle of what I'm saying and what you're saying. But if you're going to try and pass off Palmer and Brees as horrible QB's that can't win a game, all the while they have proven value as marketable QB's who play for shitty coaches, I'm going to say bullshit. I've already found your side of the debate to be flawed because you're only using stats as your point of reference. I'm saying that stats don't win you games, playing the situation wins games. And when you're as bad as the Bengals and Saints, you're going to be playing from behind and throwing a lot more picks than you would if you were playing ball control and sitting on top of leads. Then again that all comes down to coaching no matter how you slice and dice it.

 

[Nukleopatra]

That's where you're getting me wrong.

I never said Drew Brees is a horrible quarterback. I simply said Drew Brees is not a top 5 quarterback.. The top 5 should be for elite quarterbacks who continue to help their teams win football games, and maybe, just maybe a playoff game here and there. Hence why I don't have Tony Romo on my top 5 either.

Drew Brees is #8 on my top 10, that's hardly an insult.

I'm also saying that Drew Brees is far from clutch, and that's not exactly a far fetched statement.

Oh, but yes, you are right about one thing.. I honestly do believe that Carson Palmer is one of the worst starting quarterbacks in the NFL. Watching Palmer play is one of the highlights of the NFL season, and it's not in a positive manner either, at least not from his side. You could swap Carson Palmer over to NE, bring back Weiss, and Crennel, bring in Tuna, and have John Madden call the games, and Carson Palmer would still suck.