Tyrone Wheatley

[Cornelius]

Definition of BUST - A failure...or flop.

When applying that to the NFL...it includes players that just straight up could not play the game. Not players that were productive and had longevity to their careers...not players that suffered career ending injuries...not players that just didn't have success with the team that drafted them...straight up, players that couldn't play.

Jamarcus Russell...Ryan Leaf...Bruce Pickens...Charles Rogers...R. Jay Soward.

Those fucks couldn't play...therefore...busts.

Tyrone Wheatley...not a bust.

The entire roster of the 2008 Detroit Lions

 

[LiquidLarry2GhostWF]

The entire roster of the 2008 Detroit Lions

:shifty:

 

[NAHSTE]

Definition of BUST - A failure...or flop.

When applying that to the NFL...it includes players that just straight up could not play the game. Not players that were productive and had longevity to their careers...not players that suffered career ending injuries...not players that just didn't have success with the team that drafted them...straight up, players that couldn't play.

Jamarcus Russell...Ryan Leaf...Bruce Pickens...Charles Rogers...R. Jay Soward.

Those fucks couldn't play...therefore...busts. Busts, sure, but the kind of bust I'd share a drank-soaked blunt with.


Tyrone Wheatley...not a bust.

Those fucks could play, they just liked ingesting mind-altering substances more than they liked working hard and practicing and stuff.

 

[LiquidLarry2GhostWF]

Those fucks could play, they just liked ingesting mind-altering substances more than they liked working hard and practicing and stuff.

Rogers might have been able to play without venturing into the Smokables thread...

However, Russell, big time no.

 

[NAHSTE]

Rogers might have been able to play without venturing into the Smokables thread...

However, Russell, big time no.

:smugruss:

 

[shag773]

Exactly.....though Eagle fans will continue to call Mike Mamula a bust. Wheatley had a pretty good two years, and as someone else pointed out, amassed over 6000 yards and 47 TDs. Mamula had 31.5 sacks in 77 games despite battling injuries through his time there.

Not a star, but hardly unproductive.

Soooo....he was the 7th pick in the first round, only played 5 years, never had a year with 10 or more sacks, played in 77 games (by comparison, number 6 pick Kevin Carter played in 224 games, and number 16 pick Hugh Douglas played in 138 and they had 5 Pro Bowls between them) and never went to one pro bowl. If he was a 4th round pick he would get a pass. 7th pick in the first? Come one dude, he was a bust....

 

[ZoneBlitz]

You live in fantasy land. Maybe you expect a stud with a Top 5 pick, but @ pick #17? Nah. You want a guy that comes in and plays. Wheatley came in and played for a decade. Only played with two teams, too...so, journeyman?

Ya'll expectations are silly...NFL teams don't have that kind of expectations, so why do you?

Definition of BUST - A failure...or flop.

When applying that to the NFL...it includes players that just straight up could not play the game. Not players that were productive and had longevity to their careers...not players that suffered career ending injuries...not players that just didn't have success with the team that drafted them...straight up, players that couldn't play.

You are wrong for several reasons.

First, there are different expectations depending on where players are drafted. You dont have the same expectations from a 1st round pick as a 5th round pick. You saying the blanket statement "if they stay in the league, they are not a bust" is ridiculous. Ted Ginn is still in the league, does that make him not a bust? Of course not.

Secondly, the money given to 1st round picks shows you what the teams expect of them, which is millions upon millions of dollars. If they wanted just a serviceable player, they could pluck any cheap free agent off the street.

Third, the value of draft picks when trading for good veterans is ridiculously high. Brandon Marshall, a pro bowl WR, just got traded for two 3rd round picks. By your low standards for draft picks, it sounds like the Dolphins would be lucky to get two special teams players from those picks.

 

[Senser81]

You are wrong for several reasons.

First, there are different expectations depending on where players are drafted. You dont have the same expectations from a 1st round pick as a 5th round pick. You saying the blanket statement "if they stay in the league, they are not a bust" is ridiculous. Ted Ginn is still in the league, does that make him not a bust? Of course not.

Secondly, the money given to 1st round picks shows you what the teams expect of them, which is millions upon millions of dollars. If they wanted just a serviceable player, they could pluck any cheap free agent off the street.

Third, the value of draft picks when trading for good veterans is ridiculously high. Brandon Marshall, a pro bowl WR, just got traded for two 3rd round picks. By your low standards for draft picks, it sounds like the Dolphins would be lucky to get two special teams players from those picks.

You are wrong for several reasons.

First, expectations are always too high for draft picks. Draft picks are unproven players, and people put way too much value on them. Its important to draft well, but people seem to think that the draft is like an automated machine, where pick #1 outperforms pick #2, pick #2 outperforms pick #3, etc. Its not that way. In Wheatley's case, not only were his expectations too high, but the Giants obviously had no idea how to use him and spent most of his time there watching Jim Fassel try to develop a West Coast Offense around Danny Kanell and Dave Brown (perhaps the worst QB tandem in history). To call Wheatley a bust based on his contribution to the Giant organization is preposterous, because Wheatley had very little control over the situation. Its kind of like the Cedric Benson situation...would you say he's a bust because he didn't do anything in Chicago, or would you say the Bears were idiots for paying him all that money, misusing him, and letting him go.

Secondly, money given to 1st round picks is dependent on the market value. You can't take a player in the 1st round, then refuse to pay him millions and millions of dollars. This is kind of a circular argument, since it goes back to the first point. Expectations are too high to begin with.

Third, if a "good veteran" is available, then its only because a team wants to off-load the guy. No team in their right mind would give 2 first round picks for Brandon Marshall because, one, he is a problem player, and two, Miami was looking to get rid of him anyways. This is another circular argument, which refers back to the second point. Trades are dependent on market value, not actual production. If Miami accepts 3rd round picks for Marshall, should the Bears offer them 2nd round picks to Miami "because their expectations for Marshall are so high"? Thats retarded talk.

 

[ZoneBlitz]

You are wrong for several reasons.

First, expectations are always too high for draft picks. Draft picks are unproven players, and people put way too much value on them. Its important to draft well, but people seem to think that the draft is like an automated machine, where pick #1 outperforms pick #2, pick #2 outperforms pick #3, etc. Its not that way. In Wheatley's case, not only were his expectations too high, but the Giants obviously had no idea how to use him and spent most of his time there watching Jim Fassel try to develop a West Coast Offense around Danny Kanell and Dave Brown (perhaps the worst QB tandem in history). To call Wheatley a bust based on his contribution to the Giant organization is preposterous, because Wheatley had very little control over the situation. Its kind of like the Cedric Benson situation...would you say he's a bust because he didn't do anything in Chicago, or would you say the Bears were idiots for paying him all that money, misusing him, and letting him go.

Secondly, money given to 1st round picks is dependent on the market value. You can't take a player in the 1st round, then refuse to pay him millions and millions of dollars. This is kind of a circular argument, since it goes back to the first point. Expectations are too high to begin with.

Third, if a "good veteran" is available, then its only because a team wants to off-load the guy. No team in their right mind would give 2 first round picks for Brandon Marshall because, one, he is a problem player, and two, Miami was looking to get rid of him anyways. This is another circular argument, which refers back to the second point. Trades are dependent on market value, not actual production. If Miami accepts 3rd round picks for Marshall, should the Bears offer them 2nd round picks to Miami "because their expectations for Marshall are so high"? Thats retarded talk.

If you wanna say Wheatley wasnt a bust because he was misused, thats fine. I wasnt referring specifically to Wheatley, i was referring to defining busts in general.

This idea that a player isnt a bust if he remains in the league is ridiculous. There are many average & lousy players that hang around in the league.

You expect more from a first round pick than an average player.

 

[f16harm]

If you wanna say Wheatley wasnt a bust because he was misused, thats fine. I wasnt referring specifically to Wheatley, i was referring to defining busts in general.

Cedric Benson is most definately a bust. Ted Ginn is most definately a bust.

This idea that a player isnt a bust if he remains in the league is ridiculous. There are many average & lousy players that hang around in the league.

You expect more from a first round pick than an average player.

Ted Ginn is not a bust. The colossal douchefuck known as Cam Cameron who over-drafted the guy at #9 because "he comes from a good family" was the problem for Ted Ginn. Ted Ginn was a 2nd rounder to everyone outside the biggest dipshit in Miami Dolphins history (and that says a lot considering the idiocy of Dave Wannstedt in the historical equation).

 

[ZoneBlitz]

Ted Ginn is not a bust. The colossal douchefuck known as Cam Cameron who over-drafted the guy at #9 because "he comes from a good family" was the problem for Ted Ginn. Ted Ginn was a 2nd rounder to everyone outside the biggest dipshit in Miami Dolphins history (and that says a lot considering the idiocy of Dave Wannstedt in the historical equation).

Him being over-drafted is irrelevant. He was drafted at #9, he didnt produce like a #9, therefore hes a bust. You can blame Cameron instead of Ginn, but hes still a bust.

 

[ThomasTomasz]

Soooo....he was the 7th pick in the first round, only played 5 years, never had a year with 10 or more sacks, played in 77 games (by comparison, number 6 pick Kevin Carter played in 224 games, and number 16 pick Hugh Douglas played in 138 and they had 5 Pro Bowls between them) and never went to one pro bowl. If he was a 4th round pick he would get a pass. 7th pick in the first? Come one dude, he was a bust....

He didn't leave the Eagles because he was terrible and couldn't play. The guy battled through injuries and came up with almost a sack every other game. You want to talk busts, talk Andre Wadsworth or Demetrius Underwood.

I understand the frustration from Philly fans, because both Warren Sapp and Hugh Douglass (not sure why I thought Derrick Brooks.....and you mentioned Kevin Carter earlier) were picked right around Mamula in that draft. But don't say he's a bust.

 

[Senser81]

Cedric Benson is most definately a bust.

LOL at this. Benson has 5800 rushing yards and 32 TDs in his career, with a string of 3 straight 1000-yard seasons. The guys drafted above and below him are

1 San Francisco 49ers Alex Smith QB Utah
2 Miami Dolphins Ronnie Brown RB Auburn
3 Cleveland Browns Braylon Edwards WR Michigan
4 Chicago Bears Cedric Benson RB Texas
5 Tampa Bay Buccaneers Cadillac Williams RB Auburn
6 Tennessee Titans Pacman Jones CB West Virginia
7 Minnesota Vikings Troy Williamson WR South Carolina
8 Arizona Cardinals Antrel Rolle DB Miami (Fla.)
9 Washington Redskins Carlos Rogers DB Auburn
10 Detroit Lions Mike Williams WR USC

Again, you don't understand the draft. So stop talking like you do.

 

[ZoneBlitz]

LOL at this. Benson has 5800 rushing yards and 32 TDs in his career, with a string of 3 straight 1000-yard seasons. The guys drafted above and below him are

1 San Francisco 49ers Alex Smith QB Utah
2 Miami Dolphins Ronnie Brown RB Auburn
3 Cleveland Browns Braylon Edwards WR Michigan
4 Chicago Bears Cedric Benson RB Texas
5 Tampa Bay Buccaneers Cadillac Williams RB Auburn
6 Tennessee Titans Pacman Jones CB West Virginia
7 Minnesota Vikings Troy Williamson WR South Carolina
8 Arizona Cardinals Antrel Rolle DB Miami (Fla.)
9 Washington Redskins Carlos Rogers DB Auburn
10 Detroit Lions Mike Williams WR USC

Again, you don't understand the draft. So stop talking like you do.

1) So because the rest of the draft class also sucked, that makes him not a bust? Ridiculous.

2) Ive seen you ripping Benson calling him a piece of shit RB, this new search function isnt working for me to post it.

 

[LiquidLarry2GhostWF]

Him being over-drafted is irrelevant. He was drafted at #9, he didnt produce like a #9, therefore hes a bust. You can blame Cameron instead of Ginn, but hes still a bust.

The problem in this thread is that you have no idea what a "bust" is, nor have any idea how the league values the draft pick...the money associated is the market value of the player in any given year, the draft pick associated with them is a team's perceived market value of the player, or, where they feel the need to select said player, using pick #X does not have some rule that means they should yield Y results. That is talk for the uneducated sports bar mope that's checking their phone every five seconds for updates on their fantasy teams...not for upscale individuals like we have here on VSN that can discuss the finer points of the sport of football.

Tyrone Wheatley...not a bust.
Cedric Benson...not a bust.
Ted Ginn...overdrafted, but not a bust.

As mentioned before...

Jamarcus Russell...bust.
Ryan Leaf...bust.
Charles Rogers...bust.
R. Jay Soward...bust.
Rashad Anderson...bust.

 

[LiquidLarry2GhostWF]

He didn't leave the Eagles because he was terrible and couldn't play. The guy battled through injuries and came up with almost a sack every other game. You want to talk busts, talk Andre Wadsworth or Demetrius Underwood.

I understand the frustration from Philly fans, because both Warren Sapp and Hugh Douglass (not sure why I thought Derrick Brooks.....and you mentioned Kevin Carter earlier) were picked right around Mamula in that draft. But don't say he's a bust.

He had an undiagnosed psychological disorder...not sure if I'd call it a bust, or the Vikings just making the dumbest pick they could have made. They were warned that this guy was crazy by the UNC staff. I try not to think dumb pick = bust. I tend to believe a failure or flop are the guys that everyone thinks are good, but aren't and straight up can't play...like...Wadsworth and Jamal Reynolds...those boys just straight up couldn't play.

Underwood suffered from the same thing that cut Alonzo Spellman's career short...Spellman was able to control it a little better than Underwood to make some decent coin in the NFL for a bit there, though.

 

[Senser81]

1) So because the rest of the draft class also sucked, that makes him not a bust? Ridiculous.

No, because he already has 5800 rushing yards, 32 TDs, and 3 straight 1000-yard seasons he's not a bust. The draft is all relative. How can you not understand this? I sense another "bounty-type" retardation coming from you, so I'm not really going to get into it any further. You overrate draft picks. You view the draft as a rote exercise. I can't tell if you overrate or underrate actual NFL production...perhaps the better term is to say you "ignore" actual production.

Benson is a POS RB, but he's not a bust. Big difference. So I don't know why you would bother with the search function to begin with.

 

[ZoneBlitz]

Benson is a POS RB, but he's not a bust. Big difference. So I don't know why you would bother with the search function to begin with.

So your expectations for the #4 overall pick in the entire draft is the player being a POS?

Sorry but i think most people with a brain have higher expectations.

 

[ralaw]

IMO people tend to throw around the term "busts" too easily. A guy who is productive for his career isn't a busts. I've had these discussions with NBA players as well. Some people tend to think that if a 1st round pick isn't an all-pro he's a bust and this isn't true. Draft position and production don't work that simple.

 

[Senser81]

So your expectations for the #4 overall pick in the entire draft is the player being a POS?

Sorry but i think most people with a brain have higher expectations.

LOL at "entire draft", as if all drafts are equal. The 2005 draft was terrible, and Benson has had 3 straight 1000-yard seasons. He's not a bust.

Again, you act as if the draft is some type of machine, as if every year the draft produces the same amount of great players, and these great players are spread equally amongst all positions. Its just up to the teams to decide which great player they want to take.

Scouting is an inexact science. Drafting is somewhat dependent on your needs, and very dependent on who other teams take and also what the "market value" is for a player. If the Packers think Matt Flynn will be a good QB, but no one has him going higher than the 5th round and the Packers already have Aaron Rogers, would it make sense for the Packers to draft Flynn with their 1st round pick? No, that would be stupid.