Who was the biggest loser in the NFL Top 100 Discussion?

[Ironworker808]

Do you have any brain at all? I see you counted his 4 attempt mop-up duty in 2009 as an actual full game played. I'm surprised you didn't divide his 2009 attempts by 16, even though he didn't see any action at all in 6 games.

Once again, you are being proved wrong in yet another thread.

But attempts don't really tell the whole story. At least not the story you are trying to tell. You haven't taken into account Freeman's scrambles or sacks.

Those are called pass plays. They just didn't end with a pass attempt.

That adds almost 100 more plays over the course of the season. It comes out to 35.6 drop-backs a game this past season. I didn't look at 2009.

About 64% of the plays called in from the sidelines were pass plays. Not the best way to "hide" your quarterback, no?

 

[Senser81]

But attempts don't really tell the whole story. At least not the story you are trying to tell. You haven't taken into account Freeman's scrambles or sacks.

Those are called pass plays. They just didn't end with a pass attempt.

That adds almost 100 more plays over the course of the season. It comes out to 35.6 drop-backs a game this past season. I didn't look at 2009.

About 64% of the plays called in from the sidelines were pass plays. Not the best way to "hide" your quarterback, no?

Strike me down with all of your hatred and your journey towards the dark side will be complete! ​

Now this thread has BigBucs/Blick making multiple accounts. Crikey!

Freeman was sacked 28 times in 16 games last year, and 20 times in 9 games the year before, so the difference was negligible. Your combining Freeman's rushing attempts with passing attempts and calling the sum "drop backs" is utterly bizarre. I can already see there is no point in discussing that with you.

And way to chump out on calculating your 2009 stats. You obviously have no idea how statistics work. You can't throw out numbers with no context. The Bucs ranked 23rd in pass attempts last year and had only the 20th best offense despite having the 8th most productive rushing offense.

The Bucs dumbed down their offense, played more conservatively, and had a good season. I'm not faulting Freeman or the organization, I'm just saying what it is.

 

[Ironworker808]

First...not BigBucs or Blick. They're too stubborn to try and start a different, rational discussion with you. This is my screen name at any forum I sign up to post in.

Second...Combining his rushing attempts with his passing attempts is not bizarre at all when debating wether or not the Buccaneers dumbed down or played a conservative offense. When a quarterback takes a snap and drops back to attempt a pass, but coverage or a protection breakdown caused him to run past the line of scrimmage, every NFL stat keeper in the world will count that play as a running play/rushing attempt. Doesn't take into account that the play at the time of the snap was a designed passing play. But in the context of this discussion, it needs to be taken into account.

Third...You are absolutely correct. I should have posted 2009 stats for context. My apologies. With the Patriot game included, 64% pass plays. Without, 62% pass plays. There were only nine offensive plays run after Freeman entered the game in London. Two of them were handoffs to the running backs, four pass attempts, two sacks, and one scramble.

Freeman also had 72 pass attempts over 20 yards in 2010. Eight quarterbacks had more. Just doesn't sound conservative to me.

Something else I noticed. The first five games there were 58% called pass plays. The last 11 games was 66%. The last 11 games were also when Blount was the feature back. So even after the Bucs found out they had a running game, they increased the amount of times they relied on Freeman's arm. Again, doesn't sound conservative to me.

I realize that no matter how logical or rational my arguments seem to me, that they are not going to change your mind. You've taken a stance and are going to defend it. However, your stance initiated a pretty cool mental exercise for me. And for that, I thank you.

 

[Senser81]

First...not BigBucs or Blick. They're too stubborn to try and start a different, rational discussion with you. This is my screen name at any forum I sign up to post in.

But why did you choose this thread to post in as your very first post, and why is your first post to "argue" essentially nothing (you aren't really arguing if Tampa's offense was more conservative in 2010, you are arguing what constitutes a pass attempt, which is tangential to the main discussion), and why is your first post so full of holes that it closely resembles a BigBucs/Blick posting?

Strange.

 

[Ironworker808]

But why did you choose this thread to post in as your very first post, and why is your first post to "argue" essentially nothing (you aren't really arguing if Tampa's offense was more conservative in 2010, you are arguing what constitutes a pass attempt, which is tangential to the main discussion), and why is your first post so full of holes that it closely resembles a BigBucs/Blick posting?

Strange.

Because the point was carried over to this thread. I think it was when you pointed out that Freeman's mop up duty against NE was counted as a full game got me thinking of a few "what ifs". What if you looked beyond attempts? What if you looked at the effect of Blount and the running game? What if you looked at 'airing it out'? I probably would have remained a lurker if not for that one statement!

Of course, I'm looking at a conservative game plan as one that focuses on running/ball control/clock control more than passing/airing it out. An offense that doesn't rely on the quarterback more so than the running game or the defense. I don't feel that the Buccaneer offense falls into that category.

I was 'arguing' (or debating, since this hasn't devolved into name calling yet) that the offense wasn't dumbed down or more conservative in 2010, I just had to go a bit deeper than attempts per game (your evidence) to do so. I think I've shown that the Buccaneers didn't dumb down or run a conservative offense with Freeman at the helm from 2009 to 2010.

Yeah, I apologize again for the incomplete first post. Sometimes what I'm thinking makes so much sense to me in my head that I don't put down the little details that would make my point clearer. Not a slight to anyone's intelligence, more a slight to my ability to properly convey my point at times. I really do need to pay more attention to that, as it's often the little points that can make or break an argument.

 

[bucky]

With today's pass happy league, wouldn't you have to take ALL teams readjusted drop back % and come up with a ranking for pass run ratio? Where does Tampa and Freeman fit into that? In order to make a decision on whether the Bucs O was conservative or aggressive. And wouldn't you also have to look at yards per attempt?

It just doesn't seem right to compare Freeman's adjusted drop back numbers to other teams/QB's unadjusted drop back numbers, to declare Freeman to be in an aggressive pass offense.

I haven't done any number crunching, so I have no idea how this would turn out. Just seems odd that someone would use one criteria for one QB and compare that to a different criteria for all other QB's. But you guys carry on with your discussion.

 

[Ironworker808]

With today's pass happy league, wouldn't you have to take ALL teams readjusted drop back % and come up with a ranking for pass run ratio? Where does Tampa and Freeman fit into that? In order to make a decision on whether the Bucs O was conservative or aggressive. And wouldn't you also have to look at yards per attempt?

It just doesn't seem right to compare Freeman's adjusted drop back numbers to other teams/QB's unadjusted drop back numbers, to declare Freeman to be in an aggressive pass offense.

I haven't done any number crunching, so I have no idea how this would turn out. Just seems odd that someone would use one criteria for one QB and compare that to a different criteria for all other QB's. But you guys carry on with your discussion.

It would be interesting, and I'm thinking that it would show that many many teams have a 60/40 pass run ratio. I'm guessing, of course, but that's my knee jerk reaction. Then of course, you go into play calling while leading/losing. Play calling against bad/good/great/elite run defenses/pass defenses. You can do anything with statistics. LOL.

You can even argue if the percentage point difference is significant. Is a team that calls 63% pass plays that much more aggressive than a team that calls 61%? Probably not, but a big deal could be made out of it. I mean, the difference between 3.9 yards per carry and 4.1 yards per carry is a difference of only 7.2 inches. But that 7.2 inches means EVERYTHING when discussing running backs!

I didn't do that because the discussion was comparing the Buccaneers to themselves from one season to the next. Freeman vs. Freeman.

 

[Senser81]

An offense that doesn't rely on the quarterback more so than the running game or the defense. I don't feel that the Buccaneer offense falls into that category.

Again, the Bucs ranked 23rd in pass attempts last year and had only the 20th best offense despite having the 8th most productive rushing offense. They don't rely on their QB to make plays, they want their QB to protect the ball, and they have a pretty good running attack.

Josh Freeman's 25 TD 6 INT was nice, but it was somewhat a product of Tampa's system (and a weak schedule). They still were in the bottom half of the NFL in terms of total offense. Conversely, if you think that Freeman's 25/6 ratio WASN'T a product of Tampa's system, then you should also be wondering why Tampa scored so few points and why Tampa only ranked 23rd in pass attempts since Freeman is so awesome.

I'm not downgrading Freeman or singling him out (KC did the same thing with Cassel), just stating facts.

 

[Senser81]

I didn't do that because the discussion was comparing the Buccaneers to themselves from one season to the next. Freeman vs. Freeman.

And you have done a TERRIBLE job at doing even this.

That adds almost 100 more plays over the course of the season. It comes out to 35.6 drop-backs a game this past season. I didn't look at 2009.

About 64% of the plays called in from the sidelines were pass plays. Not the best way to "hide" your quarterback, no?

Freeman also had 72 pass attempts over 20 yards in 2010. Eight quarterbacks had more. Just doesn't sound conservative to me.

The first five games there were 58% called pass plays. The last 11 games was 66%. The last 11 games were also when Blount was the feature back. So even after the Bucs found out they had a running game, they increased the amount of times they relied on Freeman's arm. Again, doesn't sound conservative to me.

And the coup de grace…

I think I've shown that the Buccaneers didn't dumb down or run a conservative offense with Freeman at the helm from 2009 to 2010.

I'm all for new blood, and it would be hypocritical for me to be against users with multiple accounts, but I guess I have higher standards for people when it comes to discussing sports. Its just not fun or interesting to have to keep repeating yourself. I feel like I am "arguing" what actually happened, and having people like Blick/Ironworker808 try to nitpick for no obvious reason other than to annoy.

 

[Ironworker808]

Again, the Bucs ranked 23rd in pass attempts last year and had only the 20th best offense despite having the 8th most productive rushing offense. They don't rely on their QB to make plays, they want their QB to protect the ball, and they have a pretty good running attack.

Josh Freeman's 25 TD 6 INT was nice, but it was somewhat a product of Tampa's system (and a weak schedule). They still were in the bottom half of the NFL in terms of total offense. Conversely, if you think that Freeman's 25/6 ratio WASN'T a product of Tampa's system, then you should also be wondering why Tampa scored so few points and why Tampa only ranked 23rd in pass attempts since Freeman is so awesome.

I'm not downgrading Freeman or singling him out (KC did the same thing with Cassel), just stating facts.

Eighth most productive when looking at average per carry, yes. But we were thirteenth in attempts per game. And that's with Freeman's scrambles. Take those away and we are at 22.65 attempts per game. Good for 30th in the league. Of course, not really fair to do that for the Bucs and not for the rest of the league, as bucky pointed out.

We were also 26th in plays from scrimmage. Hard to pass the ball...or even hand it off when your sitting on the sidelines watching your run defense getting run roughshod. 17th in TOP. Middle of the pack yes, but the top ten teams in TOP were also all in the top 15 offenses with the exception of ATL (who was second in TOP but 16th in Yards Per Game...talk about a conservative offense! Yet Ryan will be considered a top 50...maybe even top 20 player for being a glorified 13 win game manager. Ha!)
Jets are in the same situation. 2nd in TOP, 11th in YPG. Again, conservative offense. San Diego? First in TOP, first in YPG. Aggressive offense. Is a TOP/YPG ratio the best way to determine an aggressive offense vs. a conservative one? Loosely, maybe, but not an argument I'd use as being definitive. (sorry, bit of a tangent there.)

Just saw your last post...
I was comparing the Bucs to the Bucs to begin with, not the Bucs to the rest of the league. The 2009 stats I used were only from the games that Freeman played in. In the NE game, I only added in the nine plays he was in the game for. I also didn't even use per game numbers, but the season (and partial season) as a whole. The two comments, 'hide Freeman' and 'dumbed down offense' are the two points I was debating. I thought you meant that Olsen (Bucs OC) simplified his 2009 offense in 2010. IMO, the numbers just don't bare this out.

I'm not nitpicking, nor am I trying to annoy. Is backing up an assertion with evidence annoying? I thought that would be better than signing up and saying, "No they didn't, neener-neener."

If you've convinced yourself that I'm another poster, then there's probably nothing I can do to convince you otherwise. But I'm not.

 

[Senser81]

Eighth most productive when looking at average per carry, yes. But we were thirteenth in attempts per game.

No, eighth most productive when looking at total yards, because rushing yards is the most accurate singular representation of rushing "production", and they rank rushing offenses based on their yardage total. For instance, when they say a team is the "top-ranked rushing attack in the NFL", that means they have rushed for the most total yardage. Did Freeman's rushing yards help? Sure. But that doesn't make what I say incorrect. And the Bucs did have a 1000-yard RB who also averaged 5.0 per carry, which is pretty rare.

Are you looking at some different stat website than the rest of us?

 

[Senser81]

Middle of the pack yes, but the top ten teams in TOP were also all in the top 15 offenses with the exception of ATL (who was second in TOP but 16th in Yards Per Game...talk about a conservative offense! Yet Ryan will be considered a top 50...maybe even top 20 player for being a glorified 13 win game manager. Ha!)

Is a TOP/YPG ratio the best way to determine an aggressive offense vs. a conservative one? Loosely, maybe, but not an argument I'd use as being definitive. (sorry, bit of a tangent there.)

Yet Atlanta scored nearly 100 more points than Tampa, had the 5th highest scoring offense compared to Tampa's 20th highest scoring, and Tampa ran for almost 200 more yards than Atlanta.

Perhaps instead of looking at TOP/YPG, you look at points scored?

 

[Ironworker808]

No, eighth most productive when looking at total yards, because rushing yards is the most accurate singular representation of rushing "production", and they rank rushing offenses based on their yardage total. For instance, when they say a team is the "top-ranked rushing attack in the NFL", that means they have rushed for the most total yardage. Did Freeman's rushing yards help? Sure. But that doesn't make what I say incorrect. And the Bucs did have a 1000-yard RB who also averaged 5.0 per carry, which is pretty rare.

Are you looking at some different stat website than the rest of us?

Don't think so. NFL.com.

Ahh, I see what happened. When you go to the league rushing stat page, it ranks by total yards by default, but the red arrow is next to the AVG. column. when I saw that, I assumed it was ranking by Avg. Trixsy NFL.com!

 

[Senser81]

Don't think so. NFL.com.

Ahh, I see what happened. When you go to the league rushing stat page, it ranks by total yards by default, but the red arrow is next to the AVG. column. when I saw that, I assumed it was ranking by Avg. Trixsy NFL.com!

OK. I thought you might have been looking on Pro Football Focus or some schlep site like that.

 

[Aso]

OK. I thought you might have been looking on Pro Football Focus or some schlep site like that.

:hatersgonnahate:

 

[Blick]

Rodgers missed almost 2 games. About 1-2/3. You sure you want to use that? And Rodgers still missed 4000 yards by just a couple. Freeman missed it by 500 yards.

Fair enough, but nobody is arguing that Freeman is on Rodgers' level or anything like that. The point is that the Bucs didn't hide Freeman. If anything, the Bucs were hiding a poor pass blocking offensive line and an inexperienced group of receivers.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/F/FreeJo00/gamelog//

Do you have any brain at all? I see you counted his 4 attempt mop-up duty in 2009 as an actual full game played. I'm surprised you didn't divide his 2009 attempts by 16, even though he didn't see any action at all in 6 games.

Once again, you are being proved wrong in yet another thread.

I just looked up what it said on nfl.com.

So you're penalizing Freeman for playing all 16 games???


Tell him Blick...lol.

Different things. You wanted to downplay Freeman's rankings in total yards and attempts (where he ranked in the top half of the league), and focus on his per game averages in those categories, which pushed him to the bottom half of the league under guys that didn't play full seasons. So, you take Ryan Fitzpatrick and whoever else finished above Freeman in per game statistics. I'll take the guy who was good enough and durable enough to play all 16 games.

And LOL at Senser for thinking I would make another account. SMH

 

[Ironworker808]

Yet Atlanta scored nearly 100 more points than Tampa, had the 5th highest scoring offense compared to Tampa's 20th highest scoring, and Tampa ran for almost 200 more yards than Atlanta.

Perhaps instead of looking at TOP/YPG, you look at points scored?

I could, but I think we're getting a bit off target here. You're kinda moving the goalposts on me. Remember, we started out talking about a drop in attempts per game from one season to the next.

Really don't see how Atlanta's scoring offense relates to hiding Freeman with dumbed down, conservative playcalling. Not saying it doesn't, just that I don't see the correlation.

Freeman was top 10 in pass attempts over 20 yards, top 10 in plays over 20 yards, and top 10 in plays over 40 yards. He was also top 10 in quarterback rating. Top 10 in touchdowns thrown. Tied for third for least INT's. And Big Ben, who threw one less INT, only played 12 games. And...AND...he had to accomplish all this while being the second most pressured QB in the league! (per that schlep site you adore. )

How is all that conducive to conservative playcalling? How does an OC call a dumbed down, conservative game plan for an entire season, and still manage to have his QB in the top 10 of so many different categories?

And are you sure he was 23rd in attempts? I'm seeing 15th.

 

[Aso]

I could, but I think we're getting a bit off target here. You're kinda moving the goalposts on me. Remember, we started out talking about a drop in attempts per game from one season to the next.

Really don't see how Atlanta's scoring offense relates to hiding Freeman with dumbed down, conservative playcalling. Not saying it doesn't, just that I don't see the correlation.

Freeman was top 10 in pass attempts over 20 yards, top 10 in plays over 20 yards, and top 10 in plays over 40 yards. He was also top 10 in quarterback rating. Top 10 in touchdowns thrown. Tied for third for least INT's. And Big Ben, who threw one less INT, only played 12 games. And...AND...he had to accomplish all this while being the second most pressured QB in the league! (per that schlep site you adore. )

How is all that conducive to conservative playcalling? How does an OC call a dumbed down, conservative game plan for an entire season, and still manage to have his QB in the top 10 of so many different categories?

And are you sure he was 23rd in attempts? I'm seeing 15th.

/thread

 

[Senser81]

Really don't see how Atlanta's scoring offense relates to hiding Freeman with dumbed down, conservative playcalling. Not saying it doesn't, just that I don't see the correlation.

Right, there is no correlation. It was in response to your TOP/Yards Gained "argument", which even you admitted was specious at best, so I don't understand why you would have been expecting a correlation with Freeman in the first place.

How does an OC call a dumbed down, conservative game plan for an entire season, and still manage to have his QB in the top 10 of so many different categories?

I don't know...ask Matt Cassel, David Garrard, and Kyle Orton.

And are you sure he was 23rd in attempts? I'm seeing 15th.

I'm now realizing that you aren't really a BigBucs alternate account, but rather a BigBucs troll account. No one could be this clueless...it has to be schtick. Tampa Bay ranked 23rd in the league in pass attempts. I was very clear, and there could have been no other way to interpret my factual comment. For the third time, the Bucs ranked 23rd in pass attempts last year and had only the 20th best offense despite having the 8th most productive rushing offense.

 

[shag773]

Tampa Bay ranked 23rd in the league in pass attempts. I was very clear, and there could have been no other way to interpret my factual comment. For the third time, the Bucs ranked 23rd in pass attempts last year and had only the 20th best offense despite having the 8th most productive rushing offense.

Just save yourself time and energy and just copy and paste this answer. Apparently the posters who are pulling up stats out of the air to dispute this wouldn't know the difference anyway.