MLB network's Top 9 Second Basemen Ever

[Warner2BruceTD]

Oh god, Sax.

I have no idea if Sax in an intelligent man, but he was a dumb baseball player. Bad fielder with awful defensive instincts, and for a good laugh, scan his CS line sometime.

[FedEx227]

He was pretty awful all around. I thought he was better then looked at his number and good lord. Terrrrible.

[dell71]

No Jackie Robinson? Racist much?

Pretty much came in to bitch about him not being on the list. If Carew can make despite playing more games at 1st than Robinson should make it. Incidentally, I'd move Carew down a few slots and bring Alomar up. Excellent with the bat, but best defensive player at the position I've ever seen (no idea if his metrics support this).

[FirstTimer]

No Jackie Robinson? Racist much?

Actually it's pretty shocking he's not shoehorned onto the list somehow. Probably because he only had four full seasons at 2B.

Pretty much came in to bitch about him not being on the list. If Carew can make despite playing more games at 1st than Robinson should make it. Incidentally, I'd move Carew down a few slots and bring Alomar up. Excellent with the bat, but best defensive player at the position I've ever seen (no idea if his metrics support this).

Jackie didn't make the list because you needed 1,000 career games at 2B.

I forget the reason they gave for Biggio not being on the list but it was mentioned before the countdown even started. Some sort of odd caveat.

[FedEx227]

Carew was probably better overall though, only slightly. Totally understand the point though because they are very similar.

Then again, Carew played 1100+ games at 2B, Robinson 748

[FedEx227]

Jackie didn't make the list because you needed 1,000 career games at 2B.

And that.

[Warner2BruceTD]

Pretty much came in to bitch about him not being on the list. If Carew can make despite playing more games at 1st than Robinson should make it. Incidentally, I'd move Carew down a few slots and bring Alomar up. Excellent with the bat, but best defensive player at the position I've ever seen (no idea if his metrics support this).

They don't.

He actually rates as a negative defender according to B-R dWAR, and also in RF/G and RF/9.

Obviously that is insanity.

I don't like the B-R dWAR. For a modern example of why it sucks, take a look at this guy:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/p/phillbr01.shtml

If Brandon Phillips and Roberto Alomar are negative value defenders, then you can toss that stat right out the window.

Meanwhile, Clint "The Statue" Barmes rates very well.

[FirstTimer]

They don't.

He actually rates as a negative defender according to B-R dWAR, and also in RF/G and RF/9.

Obviously that is insanity.

I don't like the B-R dWAR. For a modern example of why it sucks, take a look at this guy:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/p/phillbr01.shtml

If Brandon Phillips and Roberto Alomar are negative value defenders, then you can toss that stat right out the window.

Meanwhile, Clint "The Statue" Barmes rates very well.

It's why I hate defensive metrics in general. I once saw that a metric graded Alfonso Soriano out as an above average fielder. I laughed then pretty much quit looking at defensive metrics for the rest of my life to this point.

It's actually odd because so often I feel that defensive metrcs love speed and range WAY too much yet then you have guys like Barmes scoring highly while Robinson, etc score poorly.

[nflman2033]

Yeah you can really measure defense, even GG awards are bias.

As far as Jeff Kent is concerned I will have a very difficult time putting guys in his era on a list of all time greats when power is all they had

[Rudi]

This list sucks without Pokey Reese.

[SethMode]

This thread is dangling on the precipace of becoming completely off-topic about fielding metrics. Where is Lefty when you need him!?

[FirstTimer]

This thread is dangling on the precipace of becoming completely off-topic about fielding metrics. Where is Lefty when you need him!?

Locked in his mom's basement making MW3 videos.

[Warner2BruceTD]

Nellie Fox struck out 216 times in 19 seasons, with a career high of 18.

He was also a sac bunt machine.

He hit more triples than HR's every year of his career except for one.

[FedEx227]

Locked in his mom's basement making MW3 videos.

I'm not sure he's "locked" to be fair haha.

[FedEx227]

Nellie Fox struck out 216 times in 19 seasons, with a career high of 18.

He was also a sac bunt machine.

He hit more triples than HR's every year of his career except for one.

He has numbers that are definitely interesting but my point (despite him being my dads favorite player of all-time) is that now that we know what a lot of baseball success is predicated on, he gets a lot more credit then he really deserves.

We know now that having so few strikeouts doesn't really mean much if you also never walk. Juan Pierre also never strikes out but it doesn't make him more valuable then a guy with 150 Ks.