Enough is enough. Peyton Manning is the greatest QB of all time.

[ram29jackson]

It's not just about regular season career statistics.

Favre isn't in the top 5 all time. Too many playoff blunders. Not too many playoff losses cause a QB doesn't lose on his own. But too many playoff blunders.

Brett's a first Ballot HOF'er. Top 10 all time. Great QB (Regular Season). But when you look at the QB playoff performance (not just wins/losses, but performance), Starr > Favre.

Starr had the playoff wins plus he always performed great in the playoffs.

Brett is the second best QB in GB history.

Bart= great team QB
Favre= greatest individual QB with more accomplishments
Dickey=..he played for Green Bay
Don Majkowski= one shot wonder

[JOHNNYTHECLOWN]

he is behind all these guys. He is a trend

Yes, 3 time Super Bowl Champ, 2 Time (should be 3 time, brady made branch) Super Bowl MVP, MVP, Single Season TD Pass record holding trend.

That's quite a trend.

[bucky]

Bart= great team QB
Favre= greatest individual QB with more accomplishments
Dickey=..he played for Green Bay
Don Majkowski= one shot wonder

Starr = great clutch QB.

Look at Starr's playoff performances. Especially the two SB years, when the GB running game declined and Starr carried much of the offensive burden. Compare those playoff performances with Brett's.

Regular season stats are great, but playoff performances mean much more to me.

Compare the two playoff performances and you see that Starr was much better in the playoffs then Brett. Hands down. No argument.

[ram29jackson]

Yes, 3 time Super Bowl Champ, 2 Time (should be 3 time, brady made branch) Super Bowl MVP, MVP, Single Season TD Pass record holding trend.

That's quite a trend.

you dont comprehend well. In the long run he is more like a Bart starr in the right place at the right time , like Troy Aikman.

i'm not saying he isnt great and deserving. I Just wouldnt put him on top with the others

[ram29jackson]

Needs more Arnie Herber..

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/H/HerbAr20.htm

interesting- Hall of Fame- and his TD to int ratio is bad...some friends must have done some networking. I'm not knocking the guy, I love football history


1930-1945

I love Pro FB reference !

[Aso]

Do yourself a favor and go look at those Bronco's teams from early in his career. I also find it hilarious you bring up him not putting up great stats early in his career despite the fact that Elways carried those Bronco's teams to three Super Bowls in four seasons in the late 80's.

Did Joe Montana not do the same for the 49ers in 81 and 84 as well as in KC in '93? He still put up pretty good numbers. So it's pretty much a moot point. Montana put up the stats with less talent while Elway didn't. They both won games, went to Superbowls. Difference is Montana put up stats.

Because it's a myopic way to look at it? It completely disregards the quality or lack of the QB was playing on and disregards the fact that while Elway played for longer not only was he capable of it but he also put up numbers the entire time as a front line QB in the NFL. This isn't Vinny Testaverde getting into the Top 15 in a lot of catagories by hanging around for 20+ seasons. This is John Elway, who was widely considered one of the Top QB's in the NFL his entire career putting up numbers season after season. Yeah sure average seasons can be looked at but it shouldn't be the end all be all.

How is that? In Elways first 10 seasons only 5 did he throw more TD's than INT's. Part of the more stats career wise is because Montana was always injured for a couple games a year which is a knock against him, yes, but if you wanna look at it just performance wise, career stats doesn't reflect that. Have you noticed that Elway's best season don't measure up to Montana's. Yep, when he had Terrell Davis in the backfield, Shannon Sharpe at TE, Rod Smith and Ed McCaffrey at WR with a very good offensive line his numbers in '95-'98 don't measure up to what Montana's were in even '84 (which wasn't even his best season) with Wendell Tyler, Roger Craig, Freddie Solomon, and Dwight Clark. Montana played at Elways career best level from '83-'85 and '87-'90. Much longer than Elway.

:obama:

Wow.

Talk about missing the fucking point.

Go back. Read again. Try again.

I did go back and read. I guess you think that if they didn't put up empty seasons then that means every stat they made...? I don't know, complete the sentence. You were the first to bring it up. It's irrelevant to me. That was never my point.

If a player plays, again like I said before, 15 average seasons compared to 10 great ones there stats will be similar. If you compare Elway to Montana, I'd say Elway had 5 great seasons and 11 average ones while Montana had 6 great seasons and 7 average seasons (1 season as a backup, 1 out for the season) and even Montana's "average" seasons are better than Elways.

Ok?
And that goes against what I said how?

'03 and '04 were good years for Favre. The last 5 have been inconsistant.

Favre's average to sub par seasons: '93, '99, '00, '05, '06, '08 '10

That's 7 out of 20. Trying to paint Favre as a guy who has hung around and simply compiled numbers for the hell of it really doesn't make much sense. He had his team in the Conf Champ game last season. It's not like he has proven he can't play.

They were good years "for Favre"? But 2007 Derek Anderson-esk to everyone else right? '03 and '04 weren't great. Don't pull that shit. How is '98 not a bad season. Come the fuck on, 23 interceptions. That's not 7/20 thats 10/20.

[bucky]

Well, if that's criteria, Kurt Warner is the only other QB in your discussion, beacuse Starr is hands down the greatest postseason QB in history.

... here's an interesting gem as I sign out;

Brett Favres career passer rating is higher in the playoffs (86.3) than it is in the regular season (86.0)

I think Starr's is over 100 (Playoffs).

I also look at how teams win/lose in the playoffs. Brett threw to many passes to the other team at the end of playoff games for me to think of him as a great clutch playoff QB.

He has a TON of fricken regular season stats though. And he helped bring a SB to GB. I give him a lot of credit, but some of you guys highly over rate him.

[Aso]

Young won a Super Bowl and retired as the highest rated QB of all-time.

Montana was a shell of himself in KC. Aside from getting crushed in the AFCC Game in 1993, and that shootout against Elway in 1994, there was nothing memorable about Montana while he was with the Chiefs. Just another legend playing out the string.

How about that amazing playoff comeback game against the Steelers. That was an amazing game and an amazing Montana moment. How about the playoff game vs the Oilers, he struggled vs that Buddy Ryan defense early but then got hot and started to just rip it apart. This all with Willie Davis and JJ Birden at WR, a couple of blocking TE's, an old as fuck Marcus Allen. He took that Chiefs team to a whole new level. They would've been one and done just like any other year, just like any other Chiefs team if he wasn't there.

[bucky]

I'd say you're overrating his playoff failures as well.

I don't think so. I don't think of playoff game ending ints when I think of Brady. I think of SB wins. With Brett, you think of those playoff ending ints. That's far from clutch.

And I'm comparing Brett to the greatest Ever. You know Goat. Johnny Unitas, Bart Starr, Joe Montana, Sammy Baugh, etc.

Brett is/was what he is/was. A high risk taker that was many times careless with the football at the most crucial times. That's really indisputable.

[Rayman]

That's not true Aaron. He wasn't the same old Montana, but he was still a very good QB with some magic left. He took a KC team to the playoffs. Not an easy feat. You're really not being fair to Montana.

They did continually have among the best records in the AFC and made the 1993 conference championship.

[Aso]

Career postseason rating;

Favre - 86.3

Steve Young - 85.8
Peyton Manning - 87.6
Tom Brady - 85.5
John Elway - 79.7
Dan Marino - 77.1
Troy Aikman - 88.3
Warren Moon - 84.9
Jim Kelly - 72.3

I'd say you're overstating his playoff failures as well considering he's on par with all of his contemporaries sans Kurt Warner.

.. and Favre is supposed to be merely a great regular season QB, yet his postseason passer rating (86.3) is higher than his regular season passer rating (86.0)

Passer rating has nothing to do really with what's being said. He might play three and a half great quarters but when you absolutely need a play from him more often than not he'll screw up.

[shag773]

Let me try and spell this out for people that think Montana was a "shell" of himself in KC and played a bit part in the "rousing" success Schottenheimer had while coaching there.

He was 3-7 in the playoffs as KC coach. He was 2-2 with Montana with an AFC Championship appearance.

While again, I am not saying Montana was anywhere near his prime when he got there, but let's not pretend he went there to play out the string. Because it's 100% not true.

As far as Elway, he had an interesting career because you can make a case the he takes too much blame for the 3 SB losses in the 80's, and gets too much credit for the 2 SB wins in the 90's.

For me, I think Elway is underappreciated as a whole. What people have to realize is the Broncos were underdogs in all three SB losses, offensive SB records were broken in all three of those losses from his opponents, and the coaches on the other sidelines were Bill Parcells, Joe Gibbs, and Bill Walsh, the three best coaches of that decade.

The two SB wins cemented his place as a top 5 quarterback of all time. I know, I know, Terell Davis was the best back in the league and had the best offensive line in football, but for anyone that watched Elway during that time knew he still played at a very high level and took over when he had too.

[FirstTimer]

Did Joe Montana not do the same for the 49ers in 81 and 84

No.

Either know what the hell you are talking about or quit talking.

Those 49ers teams were not terrible and nowhere near as bad as those Bronco's teams were.

as well as in KC in '93

Please show me the Super Bowl stat line for Montana for KC in 1993.

He still put up pretty good numbers.

Elways last 4 years were some of the best of his career. Montana's numbers in KC were not.

So no it's not a "moot point."

Part of the more stats career wise is because Montana was always injured for a couple games a year which is a knock against him, yes,

Ok.

Then shut the hell up about it.

but if you wanna look at it just performance wise, career stats doesn't reflect that.

And yearly stats obviously don't either since in 5 of those first 10 years for Elway he dragged terrible Bronco teams to three Super Bowls.

Way to overlook the point yet again.

Dumbass

I did go back and read.

Good for you.

Did you understand it this time?

I guess you think that if they didn't put up empty seasons then that means every stat they made...?

Apparently not.

Try again.

They were good years "for Favre"? But 2007 Derek Anderson-esk to everyone else right? '03 and '04 weren't great. Don't pull that shit. How is '98 not a bad season. Come the fuck on, 23 interceptions. That's not 7/20 thats 10/20.

You are fucking terrible at reading.

I never called 03 and 04 "great".

Try reading...again.

In 1998 he threw 31 fucking touchdown passes.Lead the NFL in completions, completion percentage and yards. The Packers went 11-5 and went to the playoffs. That's how 1998 wasn't a "bad season".

Was it his most impressive or efficient season? No. Was it "bad"? No.

For fuck sakes you are so simple minded it's hilarious.

[Aso]

Favre led the League in td passes in 2003.

4000+ yards and 30 more tds in 2004 is poor??

.. as for 1998, yeah, a step back from his MVP seasons. But poor? You're really reaching. 30 tds.. again.. and he led the League in completion percentage and passing yards.

.... guess I'd have to ask you to define a 'good' season for a QB?!

You're missing the most important part... All of his interceptions. A "good" season for a QB is all those yards and touchdowns while limiting your mistakes. Throwing 21 interceptions or 23 interceptions in a season isn't doing that. A "good" season for Peyton Manning is all those same stats minus about 10 interceptions.

Well, first you would have to establish when Montana played with less talent than Elway...

'81 and '84??... nope.

So in 84 Montana played with less talent than what Elway did in 98. That's my point. Less talent, better stats.

Really?

Then how did they win a Franchise record 13 games in both 1995 and 1997 without him???..

It was a different Chiefs team... and again they were one and done in the playoffs. If Montana was starting they would have had a chance at a Superbowl. If Montana was healthy all 16 games who says the Chiefs don't go 13-3 in 1993.

[FirstTimer]

It was a different Chiefs team... and again they were one and done in the playoffs. If Montana was starting they would have had a chance at a Superbowl. If Montana was healthy all 16 games who says the Chiefs don't go 13-3 in 1993.

Well maybe if Montana doesn't lay an egg (9-23 125 yards 1 INT) against the Bills in the 1993 Conference Championship the Chiefs win?

The Chiefs in 1994 went 9-5 with Montana as QB in his last season. And were one and done in the playoffs. Wow. I'm impressed.