Enough is enough. Peyton Manning is the greatest QB of all time.

[dell71]

Funny thing about the one SB Simms played in, it was against Elway. The Broncos D sucked balls. The only good thing that team had was Elway. Not exactly like facing the 18-0 Patriots was it? Den D was 15th that season, NWE was 4th, with a high powered offense behind it. I do agree that was a near perfect game for Simms, obviously. So I'm not taking anything away from him, it's just not a fair comparison of competition is it? I will say what significantly hurts Simms from ever getting in the HOF was Jeff Hostetler winning a SB in his place. This is a definite problem for Simms supporters.

Denver was 15th in points allowed in '86, but 9th in Yards Allowed in '86. They were not this completely inept group that Elway dragged to the SB like everyone thinks. In fact, they were one of the better AFC defenses in the playoffs that year. If we want to still say it wasn't all that impressive then we have to do the same for Eli's 2nd SB. After all, in '11 the Patriots he beat were 31st in yards allowed and 15th in points allowed (during that post-season, he only faced one good defense - SF). Sure, Eli made that one magical throw down the sideline, but it wasn't exactly an elite defense. So now we're back to putting in Eli in on the basis of 1 game? I'll even give you 4 games if you want to count that whole post-season as a magical run.

Thing is, I'm not a Simms supporter for the HoF. I just don't see where Eli is significantly better.

[LiquidLarry2GhostWF]

I bleed blue. I've been a Giants fan since before Lawrence Taylor took his first snort of cocaine.

And I'm here to tell you Eli is not a "shoe in playing with house money" when it comes to the HoF. Sure, he "might" get in, but it is no lock. And if it were up to me, he wouldn't, at least based on what he's done to this point.

Exhibit A:
(Advanced Stats in parenthesis where applicable)

Eli Manning
2 SB rings, 2 SB MVPs
Top 10 Pass TD: 7
Top 10 TD%: 5 (105)
Bottom 10 Int: 7
Top 10 Int%: 1 (93)
Top 10 Comp%: 1 (93)
Top 10 Pass Yds: 4
Top 10 Rating: 1 (97)
Top 10 Yds/Att: 4 (101)


Mystery QB:
2 SB rings, 1 SB MVP (DNP - injured in other SB, but set a still standing SB record in his MVP game)
Top 10 Pass TD: 6
Top 10 TD%: 5 (102)
Bottom 10 Int: 3
Top 10 Int%: 5 (109)
Top 10 Comp%: 3 (99)
Top 10 Pass Yds: 4
Top 10 Rating: 5 (105)
Top 10 Yds/Att: 7 (104)

The Mystery QB, who has a resume on par with Eli's is NOT in the HoF. His regular season work is better compared to his peers than Eli's. To give the rings thing some credence, I'll call it a wash based on the fact that The Mystery QB earned one of his rings while nursing an injury. Still, during that season TMQ started 14 games and was the 4th highest rated passer in the league. If you haven't figured out who this guy is click below...

 

Btw, his still standing SB record is for highest completion percentage. Against Elway's Broncos he completed 22 of 25 passes for an amazing 88%.

If Eli is HoF worthy, so is he.

Quick note with regard bringing up QBs from the past who supposedly threw tons of picks, especially if they played before the 1980s: This simply isn't the case for most of the guys mentioned in regards to the era they played in. In the case of Unitas, he consistently threw more TD's than picks (usually a lot more) at a time when the league as a whole was doing the exact opposite. For instance take 1959. He led the league in yards (2899) and threw 32 TD and 14 Int. Even by today's standards that's an enviable TD:Int Ratio, though the yardage seems a bit low. The league as a whole 197 TD and 221 picks, or 36 Int for every 32 TD. The only guys mentioned (I think) that really threw a lot of picks in comparison to his peers were Favre and Bradshaw. Favre took lots of heat for it. Not sure if Bradshaw ever did, but his 4 rings has obscured a lot of his flaws.

Phil Simms might be in the Hall of Fame if he was the starting QB of the Hostetler-led Giants Super Bowl team...not sure of your point. He is a top 5 QB not in the Hall of Fame as it stands now. The second Super Bowl, and potential Super Bowl MVP - Simms was having one of his best seasons to date before he was injured against the Bills in Week 14 - could have been enough to put him into a legitimate Hall of Fame discussion. However, he didn't, and Hostetler went on to have a near flawless five game run for the Giants. Simms would battle with Hostetler (due to Ray Handley being an awful coach) until Dan Reeves showed up, he had a good final season and he retired.

Very underrated QB. If not for injury...probably a Hall of Famer. Probably not the best example to use, and IMO, a strong argument for Eli going into the Hall...he DOES have the second ring (and Super Bowl MVP) and will finish his career very high with those career marks.

FWIW, IMO, the five best QBs not (or, won't be, I should say) in the Hall of Fame are Donovan McNabb, Ken Anderson, Phil Simms, John Brodie, Randall Cunningham (or Ken Stabler, depending on my mood). At the sake of full disclosure. And, yes, I'd take Eli over all of them.

[dell71]

Phil Simms might be in the Hall of Fame if he was the starting QB of the Hostetler-led Giants Super Bowl team...not sure of your point. He is a top 5 QB not in the Hall of Fame as it stands now. The second Super Bowl, and potential Super Bowl MVP - Simms was having one of his best seasons to date before he was injured against the Bills in Week 14 - could have been enough to put him into a legitimate Hall of Fame discussion. However, he didn't, and Hostetler went on to have a near flawless five game run for the Giants. Simms would battle with Hostetler (due to Ray Handley being an awful coach) until Dan Reeves showed up, he had a good final season and he retired.

Very underrated QB. If not for injury...probably a Hall of Famer. Probably not the best example to use, and IMO, a strong argument for Eli going into the Hall...he DOES have the second ring (and Super Bowl MVP) and will finish his career very high with those career marks.

FWIW, IMO, the five best QBs not (or, won't be, I should say) in the Hall of Fame are Donovan McNabb, Ken Anderson, Phil Simms, John Brodie, Randall Cunningham (or Ken Stabler, depending on my mood). At the sake of full disclosure. And, yes, I'd take Eli over all of them.

My point is that the difference between the two of them is really 1 game. You seem to admit as much by acknowledging he'd probably be in the hall if he was the starting QB for the 2nd SB. Again, we're calling one a HoFer and saying the other has no earthly shot on the basis of 1 game. 1 drive even, if you really want to be accurate. That makes no sense to me.

[LiquidLarry2GhostWF]

My point is that the difference between the two of them is really 1 game. You seem to admit as much by acknowledging he'd probably be in the hall if he was the starting QB for the 2nd SB. Again, we're calling one a HoFer and saying the other has no earthly shot on the basis of 1 game. 1 drive even, if you really want to be accurate. That makes no sense to me.

Not one game, an entire playoff...which, yes, could be the difference between Hall of Famer and not, especially guys on the borderline, which Simms is. But more than just that playoff run, Simms also lost a few more productive years on the back end post-Parcells which keeps him out. Imagine Simms with another Super Bowl ring, another Super Bowl MVP (with another great playoff run -Hostetler was nearly flawless...no reason Simms couldn't replicate...if he doesn't break his foot, these are a given, IMO)...and throw another 30 touchdowns, possibly reaching the 40K yards mark (a stretch, but he gets damn close), and maybe another Pro Bowl (he was a Pro Bowler in his final season when Reeves finally put him back as the unquestioned starter). We're talking about a shoe-in Hall of Famer. As is, he's one of the first five guys left out.

Which is why I ask...what is your point...if its Anti-Eli, no offense, I think the Phil Simms example helps the Eli case. Compare Simms to say...Troy Aikman, a Hall of Famer...the numbers hold up.

Also, FWIW, Phil Simms may very well be a Hall of Famer one day. He is a prime Senior Committee selection in a few years.

[dell71]

Not one game, an entire playoff...which, yes, could be the difference between Hall of Famer and not, especially guys on the borderline, which Simms is. But more than just that playoff run, Simms also lost a few more productive years on the back end post-Parcells which keeps him out. Imagine Simms with another Super Bowl ring, another Super Bowl MVP (with another great playoff run -Hostetler was nearly flawless...no reason Simms couldn't replicate...if he doesn't break his foot, these are a given, IMO)...and throw another 30 touchdowns, possibly reaching the 40K yards mark (a stretch, but he gets damn close), and maybe another Pro Bowl (he was a Pro Bowler in his final season when Reeves finally put him back as the unquestioned starter). We're talking about a shoe-in Hall of Famer. As is, he's one of the first five guys left out.

Which is why I ask...what is your point...if its Anti-Eli, no offense, I think the Phil Simms example helps the Eli case. Compare Simms to say...Troy Aikman, a Hall of Famer...the numbers hold up.

Also, FWIW, Phil Simms may very well be a Hall of Famer one day. He is a prime Senior Committee selection in a few years.

If we're going to use counting stats then they should at least have some context. Saying Simms should have reached 40K yards sounds great except it ignores the fact that at the time he retired, only Tarkenton (then the all-time leader), Marino, Montana, and Unitas had reached that mark. Simms was actually 11th all time in yards when he walked away from the game despite the injuries and the Ray Handley era. Similarly, he was 16th all time in TD passes. It's not like Simms didn't have very good cumulative numbers. To add in another number, look at his career passer rating of 78.5. Sounds paltry by today's standards, but his career ended in 1993. Of the players whose careers had ended by '93 he has the 13th highest mark. Eli is 21st among active QBs.

I'm not even suggesting Simms should be in the HoF. I don't think he should. At least, his career is of a very good (certainly better than average) QB with a SB MVP whereas Eli's is that of an average QB piling up big numbers when everyone else is piling up even bigger ones and had one more great run than the other guy. I don't think that's enough of a difference for us to already be measuring him for his yellow jacket.

So yeah, my point would be that Eli should not be in at this point, not that Simms should.

[Liquidrob]

I am not going to say if Eli is or isn't because he career isn't over, but football isn't a straight stat sport, its about moments and greatness for sometimes a short period of time

I am not a "ringz" guy, but stuff like playoff runs and SB wins play bif parts in guys careers

Ita not like Timmy Smith is a HOFer because of an amazing SB, but playoff runs, big plays taken out a 18-0 team, huge throws in Super Bowls push guys like Eli above others who have similar stats

Was just talking with a guy from work about Kurt Warner, not comparing to Eli, but he is an easy HOF guy, but he would bring up his play with the Giants, I'm like "who cares, Warner was amazing with the rams and the cards and great in playoffs" etc...

[Warner2BruceTD]

I am not going to say if Eli is or isn't because he career isn't over, but football isn't a straight stat sport, its about moments and greatness for sometimes a short period of time

I am not a "ringz" guy, but stuff like playoff runs and SB wins play bif parts in guys careers

Ita not like Timmy Smith is a HOFer because of an amazing SB, but playoff runs, big plays taken out a 18-0 team, huge throws in Super Bowls push guys like Eli above others who have similar stats

Was just talking with a guy from work about Kurt Warner, not comparing to Eli, but he is an easy HOF guy, but he would bring up his play with the Giants, I'm like "who cares, Warner was amazing with the rams and the cards and great in playoffs" etc...

I agree that all of that counts and is part of the picture. For me, Eli is so ordinary and mediocre outside of those two playoff runs, that there is no way it can outweigh his "just a guy" play for the other 90% of his career.

It would be like saying if the Ravens win another Super Bowl next year, Joe Flacco belongs in the hall of fame, even if his career arch and performance does not change. Of course he wouldn't, because he's Joe Flacco, and he's not a great player.

Two problems with this discussion. One, some people love the rings and you aren't changing their minds. Two, Eli's statistics are being severely overrated. If you want to be a ring guy, fine, we'll disagree, but you can't tell me Eli's numbers are hall of fame worthy. That's comical, dude is as mediocre as mediocre can be by any statistical measure.

[Warner2BruceTD]

And Eli over Ken Anderson is just...wow. I can't even wrap my head around that.

Anderson was one of the most accurate and efficient passers of his time, and put up numbers that would hold up today without adjustment for his era. Dude was completing 65, even 70% of his passes in the early 80's. He played 30 years before Eli andhas the same QB rating. He never threw picks, leading the league in INT% multiple times while Eli is the most proficient pick tosser in the league. Anderson's page is full of black ink in all of the big boy stats, yards, rating, completion percentage, meanwhile Eli struggles to finish top ten in anything but picks. Anderson also played a Super Bowl game as good or better than any Super Bowl Eli played, and had only one bad playoff game in six tries. I don't see how Eli is better than Anderson in any way, shape, or form. Anderson did everything better.

[Warner2BruceTD]

Should also add that Anderson was good with his feet, adding over 2000 yards & 20 TD's on the ground during a time when QB's never left the pocket to the point most of them would crumble into balls and just eat sacks because they were coached not to fumble.

[ram29jackson]

[LiquidLarry2GhostWF]

And Eli over Ken Anderson is just...wow. I can't even wrap my head around that.

Anderson was one of the most accurate and efficient passers of his time, and put up numbers that would hold up today without adjustment for his era. Dude was completing 65, even 70% of his passes in the early 80's. He played 30 years before Eli andhas the same QB rating. He never threw picks, leading the league in INT% multiple times while Eli is the most proficient pick tosser in the league. Anderson's page is full of black ink in all of the big boy stats, yards, rating, completion percentage, meanwhile Eli struggles to finish top ten in anything but picks. Anderson also played a Super Bowl game as good or better than any Super Bowl Eli played, and had only one bad playoff game in six tries. I don't see how Eli is better than Anderson in any way, shape, or form. Anderson did everything better.

I have no problem talking about Anderson as a regular season QB...he was good.

He threw two picks in the Super Bowl against San Francisco that were backbreakers. First one led to SF's first score (and SF never looked back) and then another in the fourth quarter leading to the put-away score by San Francisco.

[LiquidLarry2GhostWF]

Should also add that Anderson was good with his feet, adding over 2000 yards & 20 TD's on the ground during a time when QB's never left the pocket to the point most of them would crumble into balls and just eat sacks because they were coached not to fumble.

What?

Roger Staubach, Jim Zorn, Fran Tarkenton, Greg Landry, Joe Theisman, Steve Grogan, Bobby Douglass...I'm sure I'm missing more, especially later in Anderson's career or guys that had shorter runs (example, Bert Jones). Tons of QBs could and did run during the 70's and early/mid 80's.

FWIW, I put Anderson in the same pot as guys like John Brodie...or lesser guys like Jim Hart. Not enough post-season appearances or success to be in a legitimate discussion. Good regular season QBs though.

[FirstTimer]

how exactly do those retard numbers you posted put anything into context? are you really saying he has 101 yards per pass attempt? that would be like 3000 yards per game. and a 97% completion %....for someone who is arguing that manning isnt a HOF why would you say he has a 97% completion %?

Lol what?

[FirstTimer]

By all means, show me...I dunno...five voters (?) that use these advanced numbers to validate their vote. I'll wait.

Meanwhile, the tried and true numbers that are used by Hall of Fame voters for generations hold up as Hall of Fame worthy. Career totals, Super Bowls, playoff performance...Pro Bowl numbers, All-Pro along with All-Decade don't hold up due to volume of QBs in his era...but I'll also assume he'll get a few more Pro Bowls before his career runs out.

Why do you keep asking about the current voters. Warner isn't saying Eli won't get in. He's saying he shouldn't. Saying the voters will put him in isn't the point. It's that the voters would be wrong and dumb to do so.

[ram29jackson]