Dave sees Bill Simmons' top-32 QBs and raises him with his top-32 QBs (NFL)

[Fox1994]

Well, again, I don't think Dave was making this as an NFL Scouting primer or anything...Just his opinion, equally uninformed as any other.

I don't really think it's productive to even have these discussions, because people infuse their own skepticism into what should be fairly straight forward.

Dave: "Here's my list"
VSN: "You don't know what you're talking about"
Dave: "I know, but here's my list"
VSN: "You don't know what you're talking about"
Dave: "I know, but here's my list"

and on and on and on

Here's how I perceived it.

Dave: Here's my list. It's full of made-up, baseless "facts".
VSN: Your list sucks.
Dave: Whatever. It's my list. Fuck your opinion.
VSN: Your list still sucks.
Dave: Well, it's just my list... Because I can't handle criticism on a forum board full of trolls and people with superior NFL knowledge to mine.
VSN: Your list still sucks.

[NAHSTE]

I can certainly attack his credibility based on the holier-than-thou context of the list.

For crying out loud, look at the thread title!

You know Dave is more about the ratings than the content. I had a thread title similar to that, I think he was just going for a spin-off to catch eye balls. Don't think he was arrogant with the thread title. Not like Bill Simmons is a great scribe of football either, he's a casual fan like you or me when it comes to the NFL. He is a great basketball writer, but other than that he's gimmick central.

[Bear Pand]

I honestly don't like ranking guys 1-10, there are tiers. I feel Rodgers made the jump from Tier 2 to Tier 1. Brady is basically about to drop from Tier 1 to Tier 2 pretty soon. In a similar situation, I think Joe Flacco could jump into Tier 2 after this season.

Tier 1
Manning
Brees
Rodgers
Brady

Tier 2
Romo
Rivers
Roethlisberger

I'm like you I think more in tiers than straight rankings. Except I'd have Rodgers in my 2nd tier.

Straight rankings are garbage and you're just splitting hairs for no reason a lot of the time.

[Warner2BruceTD]

You know Dave is more about the ratings than the content. I had a thread title similar to that, I think he was just going for a spin-off to catch eye balls. Don't think he was arrogant with the thread title. Not like Bill Simmons is a great scribe of football either, he's a casual fan like you or me when it comes to the NFL. He is a great basketball writer, but other than that he's gimmick central.

Even his NBA writing is often so long winded that you end up skimming. He did a trading deadline piece this past year, where he played GM for every single team , and dedicated like 3 paragraphs for each one. Unreadable drivel like:

If I was running Milwaukee, i'd think about packaging Bogut with a bad contract and two young cheap bench players, and offer them to New Jersey for Yi, Bobby Simmons, two 2nd round picks and Kenyon Dooling. I know, I know, the Bucks traded Yi & Simmons to begin with, but hear me out. Yi has an expiring contract in two years, which frees up $4M in cap space so they can make a run at a mid level player like Channing Frye, who would replace Bogut, and they can flip the two second rounders to Phoenix for the Suns first rounder, where they can draft a shootong gaurd to replace Michael Redd. The Nets get Bogut (I know, I know, they have Brook Lopez, but HEAR ME OUT), who they can flip to NY for a first rounder & an expiring contact,which gives them the much needed breathing room in 2012, for when they head to Brooklyn. Even if Milwaukee keeps the two second rounders, they can try to get a PG on the cheap to fix the TJ Ford mistake, and everybody wins.

If you stopped reading that about half way through, don't worry, so did everybody else. That's the type of shit he writes.

[NAHSTE]

I've been in skim mode for Simmons since finishing his book. Maybe I just finally got my fill. I think it's more that he's more interested in writing about himself than writing about sports now.

He's the sports writing equivalent of Entourage, he abused his formula until it became obvious how formulaic it was.

[Warner2BruceTD]

I've been in skim mode for Simmons since finishing his book. Maybe I just finally got my fill. I think it's more that he's more interested in writing about himself than writing about sports now.

He's the sports writing equivalent of Entourage, he abused his formula until it became obvious how formulaic it was.

I've been reading his book for months, I just can't finish it.

I find myself getting bored, thinking about something else, then realizing i'm reading a book, and I have to go back and re read the last three pages again.

[BigBucs]

I'm not saying you can't scrutinize the list, but when you attack his credibility you're only stating the obvious. He's not saying he is the authority on the NFL, we all know he's not. He just wanted to offer thoughts and opinions on all 32 QBs.

I don't see why it's so hard to judge the list for what it is, knowing it's done by an uninformed fan.

Problem arises when his opinion is based on grossly inaccurate information. How can you form an opinion on something/someone you dont observe and still act like you know what you are talking about when its apparent you dont?

[dave]

Here's how I perceived it.

Dave: Here's my list. It's full of made-up, baseless "facts".
VSN: Your list sucks.
Dave: Whatever. It's my list. Fuck your opinion.
VSN: Your list still sucks.
Dave: Well, it's just my list... Because I can't handle criticism on a forum board full of trolls and people with superior NFL knowledge to mine.
VSN: Your list still sucks.

Wrong.
I have my opinions, I stand by them.
I didn't say I was the biggest NFL genius on the boards, not even once.
As for baseless facts, anyone who wrote a list like this could be accused to the same thing.
You could use all the statistical analysis you want when drawing up lists like this, but there will be a faction of people who think you're wrong.

Like I wrote earlier, I'd love to see a list like this from NFL players themselves - but even they would have a bias, picking their own QBs likely higher than they should be.

And, despite his off the field garbage, I would still take Roethlisberger #3 on this list. The guy has been a consistent performer from the day he took the field. He played in two Super Bowls and his team won both. I don't care if his stats weren't great. All that matters is he won.
I wish Donovan McNabb's stats sucked like that in the 2004 Super Bowl and the Birds won.

I will be interested to see Joe Flacco's development this season. He clearly has the supporting cast he needs now. Houshmanzadeh as a #3 WR is ridiculous.

[Houston]

I don't care if his stats weren't great. All that matters is he won.

I never get that argument.

Let's say James Harrison doesn't catch that INT and score a TD(defense)
Or lets say Santonio Holmes drops the catch or doesn't get 2 feet in.(Ben is not in control of this)
This suddenly makes Roethlisberger a worse QB for not winning The Superbowl, and Brees is better then him in your ratings?


Lets say The Saints kicker misses the FG in overtime and the Vikings end up winning and going to the Superbowl.
By your method....

Kicker missing= - for Brees since he doesn't make it to the Superbowl
Kicking making it= + for Brees
Even though it had nothing to do with Brees?




You can't decide how good a QB is based on what his team is doing, do you not understand that the defense and special teams are just as influential to the outcome of a game as the QBis?

[Argath]

lol @ campbell on a top32 list


guess you missed the play where he overthrew a RB screen for a pick 6


or when he underthrew a wideopen santana moss streaking down the field for a pick 6


or when he tried to force it over the middle to a chris cooley for a.. pick 6


or when he refused to throw to his widerecievers for the first 4 games 2 seasons ago..

[Woy]

lol @ campbell on a top32 list


guess you missed the play where he overthrew a RB screen for a pick 6


or when he underthrew a wideopen santana moss streaking down the field for a pick 6


or when he tried to force it over the middle to a chris cooley for a.. pick 6


or when he refused to throw to his widerecievers for the first 4 games 2 seasons ago..

He's an improvement over JaMarcus, but some people think he's the savior for Oakland *ahem Dave* and they'll win the division this season. Campbell's fucking awful.

[BigBucs]

lol @ campbell on a top32 list


guess you missed the play where he overthrew a RB screen for a pick 6


or when he underthrew a wideopen santana moss streaking down the field for a pick 6


or when he tried to force it over the middle to a chris cooley for a.. pick 6


or when he refused to throw to his widerecievers for the first 4 games 2 seasons ago..

Thats one thing we can agree on. He was ass. Was tired of all the excuses from you Skins fans every year. "Well he is always in a new system" Fuck that he gets paid to perform. If he was a back up he would be the best back up in the league.

[dave]

ESPN is running a poll right now, based on this list.



Submit here: http://espn.go.com/sportsnation/rank...d=16&listId=23

[FedEx227]

If there's one thing ESPN fucking loves it's lists. So fucking retarded to reduce sports conversations and arguments into an irrelevant numbered list.

[ralaw]

If there's one thing ESPN fucking loves it's lists. So fucking retarded to reduce sports conversations and arguments into an irrelevant numbered list.

That's because people love top "___" list, as they're a cheap way to generate discussion and debate. Its seems every year VSN gets about 5 top QB list as it is and everyone usually goes multiple pages.