Josh Freeman vs. Mark Sanchez

[shag773]

[QUOTE=SethMode;1669749]My problem is that the opinion seems to sway so vehemently from each side of the argument. Some people focus on postseason too much. Some people are too anxious to take away credit for postseason performance b/c it's a "team" game. Some people are focus too much on regular season stats. Some people are too anxious to take those away as well. There are so few people in the world, and on here as well it would seem, that are incapable of looking at these QBs and trying their best to assess fairly based on all of the available data. At least, in my opinion.
[QUOTE]

I thought about this post when looking at this argument. I look at it this way. Statisically Freeman had a better year than Sanchez. I don't think anyone can argue that. However, according to the profootball.com Simple Rating System, the Jets had a much tougher schedule then the Bucs.

They had 4 games vs teams that played against both the Bucs and the Jets. Here are the respective QB's overall numbers against these 4 teams:

Sanchez
Result Cmp Att Cmp % Yards TD Int Rate
Cle W 26-20 27 44 61.4 299 2 1 87.2
Ravens L 9-10 10 21 47.6 74 0 0 56.4
Det W 23-20 22 39 56.4 336 1 1 82.9
Pitt W 22-17 19 29 65.5 170 0 0 81.1
Cin W 26-10 16 28 57.1 166 1 1 71.4
Total 4W-1L 94 161 58.4% 1045 4 3 78.3


Freeman
Result Cmp Att Cmp % Yards TD Int Rate
Cle W 17-14 17 28 60.7 182 2 1 88.7
Ravens L 10-17 17 37 45.9 162 1 0 67.6
Det L 20-23 21 32 65.6 251 1 0 99.9
Pitt L 13-38 20 31 64.5 184 0 1 67.1
Cin W 24-21 20 33 60.6 280 1 1 85.4
Total 2W-3L 95 161 59.0% 1059 5 3 81.3


Other than W-L pct, they had comparable numbers vs like opponents. I put them on the same tier, with maybe a slight edge to Sanchez only because of his performance in the playoffs. This isn't a knock on Freeman, he hasn't been to the playoffs. While I won't hold that against him, I can't really reward him for that either.

Both these QB are very early in their development. I think we would have a clearer picture this time next year.

[BigBucs]

In contrast, the 2009 Falcons played 13 teams with at least 7 wins. So it's not really fair to compare Freeman's 2nd year to Ryan's 2nd year. Ryan made the playoffs in year 1, so he faced a playoff schedule in year 2. Let's see how Tampa does next year when they don't get to play the worst teams in football every other week.

:insertfacepalmsmiley: As if the Falcons didnt play 12 of the 14 teams that the Bucs did.

I thought about this post when looking at this argument. I look at it this way. Statisically Freeman had a better year than Sanchez. I don't think anyone can argue that. However, according to the profootball.com Simple Rating System, the Jets had a much tougher schedule then the Bucs.

They had 4 games vs teams that played against both the Bucs and the Jets. Here are the respective QB's overall numbers against these 4 teams:

Sanchez
Result Cmp Att Cmp % Yards TD Int Rate
Cle W 26-20 27 44 61.4 299 2 1 87.2
Ravens L 9-10 10 21 47.6 74 0 0 56.4
Det W 23-20 22 39 56.4 336 1 1 82.9
Pitt W 22-17 19 29 65.5 170 0 0 81.1
Cin W 26-10 16 28 57.1 166 1 1 71.4
Total 4W-1L 94 161 58.4% 1045 4 3 78.3


Freeman
Result Cmp Att Cmp % Yards TD Int Rate
Cle W 17-14 17 28 60.7 182 2 1 88.7
Ravens L 10-17 17 37 45.9 162 1 0 67.6
Det L 20-23 21 32 65.6 251 1 0 99.9
Pitt L 13-38 20 31 64.5 184 0 1 67.1
Cin W 24-21 20 33 60.6 280 1 1 85.4
Total 2W-3L 95 161 59.0% 1059 5 3 81.3


Other than W-L pct, they had comparable numbers vs like opponents. I put them on the same tier, with maybe a slight edge to Sanchez only because of his performance in the playoffs. This isn't a knock on Freeman, he hasn't been to the playoffs. While I won't hold that against him, I can't really reward him for that either.

Both these QB are very early in their development. I think we would have a clearer picture this time next year.

The Jets had a tougher schedule than the Bucs but we gonna sit here and completely omit the fact that Sanchez surrounding talent doesnt make it significantly easier for him to look good? Thing is he doesnt, he just looks consistently pedestrian. The Jets are loaded at every single position on offense outside of QB. We gonna act like Sanchez is the reason the Jets went to the playoffs let alone won a few games?

Shit is absurd. Anyone with a little bit of common sense and some football knowledge can see the Jets are a playoff team with or without Sanchez. Remove Freeman from the Bucs and put in an "average" QB and tell me what we are. Are you all giving the Bucs that much credit for being so talented that we can win with anyone at QB? Gimme a fucking break.

[BigBucs]

You are reaching here... I'm not hating on Sanchez at all, I'm merely saying Freeman is the better of the two, in my fucking opinion... And stats are a direct reflection of two things: your system (or coaching for you retarded literal fucks) and your supporting cast... Sanchez has the advantage on both counts... Let me put it this way: if you were to switch Sanchez and Freeman, do you really think the Bucs would have won 10 games this year?? I fucking don't, and I can honestly say if Freeman were on the Jets, they'd be playing in Dallas on February 6th...

Just gonna quote this to sum this silly ass "argument" up. Not even an argument, its dumb asses hating to hate.

[Buzzman]

:insertfacepalmsmiley: As if the Falcons didnt play 12 of the 14 teams that the Bucs did.


The Jets had a tougher schedule than the Bucs but we gonna sit here and completely omit the fact that Sanchez surrounding talent doesnt make it significantly easier for him to look good? Thing is he doesnt, he just looks consistently pedestrian. The Jets are loaded at every single position on offense outside of QB. We gonna act like Sanchez is the reason the Jets went to the playoffs let alone won a few games?

Shit is absurd. Anyone with a little bit of common sense and some football knowledge can see the Jets are a playoff team with or without Sanchez. Remove Freeman from the Bucs and put in an "average" QB and tell me what we are. Are you all giving the Bucs that much credit for being so talented that we can win with anyone at QB? Gimme a fucking break.

But the Bucs have Mike Williams, Kellen Winslow, and Earnest Fucking Graham.

[Mogriffjr]

:insertfacepalmsmiley: As if the Falcons didnt play 12 of the 14 teams that the Bucs did.


The Jets had a tougher schedule than the Bucs but we gonna sit here and completely omit the fact that Sanchez surrounding talent doesnt make it significantly easier for him to look good? Thing is he doesnt, he just looks consistently pedestrian. The Jets are loaded at every single position on offense outside of QB. We gonna act like Sanchez is the reason the Jets went to the playoffs let alone won a few games?

Shit is absurd. Anyone with a little bit of common sense and some football knowledge can see the Jets are a playoff team with or without Sanchez. Remove Freeman from the Bucs and put in an "average" QB and tell me what we are. Are you all giving the Bucs that much credit for being so talented that we can win with anyone at QB? Gimme a fucking break.

Put in an average QB for the Bucs, they will be likely around the same record maybe better. Freeman is still below average, just like Sanchez is. But you can tell potential is great for both QB's to become top 10 talents.

[shag773]

The Jets had a tougher schedule than the Bucs but we gonna sit here and completely omit the fact that Sanchez surrounding talent doesnt make it significantly easier for him to look good? Thing is he doesnt, he just looks consistently pedestrian. The Jets are loaded at every single position on offense outside of QB. We gonna act like Sanchez is the reason the Jets went to the playoffs let alone won a few games?

The Jets are loaded on offense? I guess I missed all their pro bowl selections. Let's actually use some facts instead of pulling stupid shit out of our ass.

The Bucs had the 9th best rushing attack in the NFL. Blount had 1000 yards rushing in 13 games, while only starting 7 of them. Mike Williams had a good rookie year at WR, statistically better than any Jets receiver this year. Winslow statistically had a better year than Keller.

The Jets had 5 players catch over 40 balls this year vs 3 players for the Bucs. The Jets did not have a 1000 yd rusher, but they did end up 6 places ahead of the Bucs in total rushing offense at no. 3.

I would give the edge in supporting cast to Sanchez, but it's not significantly better. The stats don't support your assertion that the Jet's are "loaded" at every position.

Shit is absurd. Anyone with a little bit of common sense and some football knowledge can see the Jets are a playoff team with or without Sanchez. Remove Freeman from the Bucs and put in an "average" QB and tell me what we are. Are you all giving the Bucs that much credit for being so talented that we can win with anyone at QB? Gimme a fucking break.

Your problem is you come up with these fantasy scenarios that you could never prove. Jet's are a playoff team without Sanchez? Remove Freeman from the Bucs and they are 0-16? Make a valid argument for either of those statements or GTFO.

[shag773]

Put in an average QB for the Bucs, they will be likely around the same record maybe better. Freeman is still below average, just like Sanchez is. But you can tell potential is great for both QB's to become top 10 talents.

I don't agree with this either. Freeman and Sanchez are good QBs. Hell, when it's all said and done Freeman may end up better than Sanchez, just not at this point in time. I have started to prefer more of a "Tier" system vs just flat out rankings. Here's how I see it:

Tier 1 (Elite)
Brady
Manning
Big Ben

Tier 2 (Great)
Rodgers
Brees
Rivers

Tier 3 (Good)
E Manning
Romo
Flacco
M Ryan

Tier 4 (Above Average)
M Vick
M Sanchez
J Freeman
J Cutler
Cassel
Schaub
Bradford

Tier 5 (Average)

Hasselback
Palmer
K Orton
Fitzpatrick
Stafford
McNabb
D Gerrard
Kerry Collins
Colt McCoy

Tier 6 (Awful)
J Campbell
A Smith
J Clausen
Any Cards QB that started, threw a pass, or held a clipboard

[Juggernaut]

My only thing would be to bump Rodgers up to Elite and Vick and Cutler to good.

[BigBucs]

The Jets are loaded on offense? I guess I missed all their pro bowl selections. Let's actually use some facts instead of pulling stupid shit out of our ass.

The Bucs had the 9th best rushing attack in the NFL. Blount had 1000 yards rushing in 13 games, while only starting 7 of them. Mike Williams had a good rookie year at WR, statistically better than any Jets receiver this year. Winslow statistically had a better year than Keller.

The Jets had 5 players catch over 40 balls this year vs 3 players for the Bucs. The Jets did not have a 1000 yd rusher, but they did end up 6 places ahead of the Bucs in total rushing offense at no. 3.

I would give the edge in supporting cast to Sanchez, but it's not significantly better. The stats don't support your assertion that the Jet's are "loaded" at every position.




Your problem is you come up with these fantasy scenarios that you could never prove. Jet's are a playoff team without Sanchez? Remove Freeman from the Bucs and they are 0-16? Make a valid argument for either of those statements or GTFO.

Did you really just mention Pro Bowl selections to make an argument? Go ahead and run off the all star team the Bucs has. Im not gonna act like Williams and Blount arent good but these players are rookies. This shit is ridiculous. It really is. The Jets have a top 5 offensive line unit while we had 3 rookies start on our OL trhough the course of the year. Our other starting WR was a rookie, our 3rd WR is in his second year, Preston Parker and Desmond Briscoe are both rookies. Our veteran talent at WR? The beast that are Maurice Stovall and Michael Spurlock. K2 is a beast, Ill give you that but lest stop the fucking madness.

As for us inserting an "average" QB and going 0-16, exaggerate much?

Its comical that we now have someone trying to act like the Bucs offense is comparable to the Jets all of a sudden. Let me have implied that shit during the season.

[shag773]

Did you really just mention Pro Bowl selections to make an argument?

You said the Jets are loaded at every single position outside of QB. I would assume you are saying Sanchez is surrounded by great players. Great players usually make Pro Bowls.

Go ahead and run off the all star team the Bucs has.

Go ahead and show me where I said that they did

Im not gonna act like Williams and Blount arent good but these players are rookies.

..who had better statistical seasons than any respective RB or WR on the Jets roster.

This shit is ridiculous. It really is.

We finally agree on something

The Jets have a top 5 offensive line unit

Agreed.

while we had 3 rookies start on our OL trhough the course of the year

.

Both teams had top 10 rushing offenses. Sanchez was sacked 27 times, Freeman 28. So explain to me how the Bucs offensive line was that much worse than the Jets again?

Our other starting WR was a rookie, our 3rd WR is in his second year, Preston Parker and Desmond Briscoe are both rookies. Our veteran talent at WR? The beast that are Maurice Stovall and Michael Spurlock. K2 is a beast, Ill give you that but lest stop the fucking madness.

While we are stopping the madness, can we stop treating the Jets wide receiver corp like they are the 2nd coming of the 99 Rams? Crotchery was okay, Edwards had his moments but nothing consistent, and Holmes missed 4 games to start the season. Are they better than the Bucs? As a group they have more depth. Is it a group that is so good that it would make a bad QB look good? No, they are not.

I also want to say that just because I give the slight edge to Sanchez over Freeman, it doesn't mean I think he is a bad QB. I like a lot of what I saw. But I would like tyo see him either be successful in the playoffs or string together another year like this one before I put him ahead of Sanchez.

As for us inserting an "average" QB and going 0-16, exaggerate much?

I thought you said that somewhere, if you didn't I apologize.

Its comical that we now have someone trying to act like the Bucs offense is comparable to the Jets all of a sudden.

Statistically they are. As far as points scored, the Jets hold the edge with 367 Pts (13th) vs the Bucs 341 Pts (20th). When broken down further the Jets are ranked 22nd in passing and 3rd in rushing. The Bucs are 17th in passing and 8th in rushing. That's not comparable? What's comical is you haven't once backed up any of your arguments with one shred of fact.

Let me have implied that shit during the season.

Good point.

[BigBucs]

You said the Jets are loaded at every single position outside of QB. I would assume you are saying Sanchez is surrounded by great players. Great players usually make Pro Bowls.

Hardly. Probowl is a popularity contest. Lets not act like an asshat all of a sudden. Takes away any validity from your argument that you might have.

Go ahead and show me where I said that they did

You dont have to say it.

..who had better statistical seasons than any respective RB or WR on the Jets roster.

Who had the better statistical season collectively on the ground? And they did this having only 1 100 yard rusher in a single game this season. THEY HAVE DEPTH AT RB! They also spread the ball around in the air. They have 4 receivers over 400 yards, 3 over 600 and 1 900 +. The Bucs have 2 over 400, the same 2 over 600 and 1 900 +. We gonna act like depth doesnt play a part in their to rusher being SLIGHTLY our performed by the one another? Their RB had a season comparable to our #2 WR.

Despite these facts Freeman still put up far superior numbers than Sanchez.

Is this something else you pulled out of your ass or can you actually back this up?

Unless you live under a rock they were ranked by the consensus as a top 5 unit coming into the season. In addition, their 4th ranked rushing offense says it.

Few preseason links....

http://football.about.com/od/fantasyfootball/a/Offensive_Line.htm

http://www.capperspicks.com/blog/fantasy-football/2010-offensive-line-rankings-40810/

http://www.fftoolbox.com/football/article.cfm?article_id=630

Recent Rankings with some statistical evidence

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/ol

But you can ignore it and keep acting as if it holds no weight

Both teams had top 10 rushing offenses. Sanchez was sacked 27 times, Freeman 28. So explain to me how the Bucs offensive line was that much worse than the Jets again?

See above. In addition to that Sanchez took less sacks in more drop backs, Freeman was the second ranked rushing QB in the league, a lot of those yards came from him escaping sacks and running for his life.

While we are stopping the madness, can we stop treating the Jets wide receiver corp like they are the 2nd coming of the 99 Rams? Crotchery was okay, Edwards had his moments but nothing consistent, and Holmes missed 4 games to start the season. Are they better than the Bucs? As a group they have more depth. Is it a group that is so good that it would make a bad QB look good? No, they are not.

Cotchery was their their 4th damn option. Edwards had a season comparable to to Mike Williams but not only was Mike Williams the # 1 option he didnt have a #1 caliber WR on the other side of the ball to take heat off him. He had Winslow and thats it. Jets had Cotchery, Keller, Holmes, Edwards and one of the best receiving RB's in the league in Tomlinson.

I also want to say that just because I give the slight edge to Sanchez over Freeman, it doesn't mean I think he is a bad QB. I like a lot of what I saw. But I would like tyo see him either be successful in the playoffs or string together another year like this one before I put him ahead of Sanchez.

I hear all that but you are a fiend like the rest who act like Sanchez is a better QB Freeman. Coming into the season we were widely considered one of the worst teams in the league. Nobody outside of Bucs fans could tell you who our #1 WR was. Freeman was the reason we became a good team. Sanchez is a beneficiary of playing on a playoff ready team. He is not the reason for their success.

I thought you said that somewhere, if you didn't I apologize.

I didnt. I said if Sanchez was a Buc and Franchise was a Jet the Jets would be in the SB (and significantly better) while the Bucs would be a 5-6 win team at best.

Statistically they are. As far as points scored, the Jets hold the edge with 367 Pts (13th) vs the Bucs 341 Pts (20th). When broken down further the Jets are ranked 22nd in passing and 3rd in rushing. The Bucs are 17th in passing and 8th in rushing. That's not comparable? What's comical is you haven't once backed up any of your arguments with one shred of fact.

And from a talent standpoint they are not. The Jets, collectively, has better players at every single position (RB, WR, OL) on offense besides TE and of course QB. How the hell can anyone try and dispute this. You have to know absolutely nothing about football to try and argue this.

Good point.

I know it is. A bunch of haters on this forum. If I was to try and imply any of the shit you are saying my post would have had 50 groans by now but for some reason nobody has an issue with your asinine arguments because they are being used against me.

Statistics arent just cut and dry. Freeman is performing despite his situation, Sanchez put up that average ass season because of his situation. Look at his fucking numbers. You telling me if he was put in a situation where he was the guy. No plethora of weapons and offense that shelters him he would do just as well (if you can call it that) let alone out perform it. You have to be an idiot to think so. Anyone who can look at Freemans performance this season and call it average is nothing but a fucking hater.



How the hell is nearly 3,500 yards, 25 TD's and 6 picks an average season? Not to mention a team that was considered by everyone to be a bottom feeder in the league. So many haters..... On the flipside you all are saying a bum that put up these numbers despite being a perfect situation is on par with Freeman? Forget the stats look at his QB rating. Not 1,2, 5, 10 points less but 20 points less than Freeman and he is better, let alone just as good? Please. If it was the other way around this would be your only argument and I would get laughed off the forum for trying to argue it.



Sanchez is a fucking bum in comparison. Cant believe he gets a pass for this shitty ass season all things considered while Freeman gets shitted on by anyone with an opinion on here. Hate me all you want, call me a homer or whatever but dont be fucking hypocrites.

Glad I caught your OL edit. Seems like someone else is pulling opinions out their ass. What made you "agree" all of a sudden?

[packersfan4eva]

The Jets are loaded on offense? I guess I missed all their pro bowl selections. Let's actually use some facts instead of pulling stupid shit out of our ass.

The Bucs had the 9th best rushing attack in the NFL. Blount had 1000 yards rushing in 13 games, while only starting 7 of them. Mike Williams had a good rookie year at WR, statistically better than any Jets receiver this year. Winslow statistically had a better year than Keller.

The Jets had 5 players catch over 40 balls this year vs 3 players for the Bucs. The Jets did not have a 1000 yd rusher, but they did end up 6 places ahead of the Bucs in total rushing offense at no. 3.

I would give the edge in supporting cast to Sanchez, but it's not significantly better. The stats don't support your assertion that the Jet's are "loaded" at every position.

Stats, stats, stats.

1. Stats aren't everything.

2. The pro bowl is FAN selection. Just because someone didn't get in doesn't mean they aren't as good. Aaron Rodgers didn't get in, and he had a helluva season. Drew Brees did, and he struggled without a decent running game.

[bucky]

Can Freeman actually do something in the playoffs before we say he is better than someone that has actually done something in the playoffs?

[BigBucs]

We keep talking this playoff shit as if he is a 10 year veteran. Ill pose this question to you, if Freeman was a Jet would he had made the playoffs? If Sanchez was a Buc would he had made the playoffs? I never said Freeman played on a better team. The Jets didnt make the playoffs because of him. This ridiculous saying Trent Dilfer was an above avg QB because he has a SB ring.

I guess Rodgers wasnt shit before this season because he didnt win a playoff game. Bunch of contradicting haters. Freeman is a better QB and it isnt close, playoffs be damned.

[Woy]

Title changed.