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  • Liquidrob
    Izzy is a bum
    • Feb 2009
    • 11785

    #61
    Right now the best strikers MMA has ever seen first be the guys with legit Striking backgrounds like the ex K1 guys like Semmy, Cro Cop, Manhoef, Hunt, than guys like Bas and Yvel who just wreck people

    The dutch style is great for MMA, just power based and everything they throw hurts

    Than you have the guys with a lot of training in striking growing up and did compete at different levels like Anderson Silva and Machida and they are still refining there game and taking out less skilled strikers and making them look silly

    The grapplers like Penn, Couture, etc...have all gotten so much better, but they just dont have the background and competiton level of K1 guys, etc...

    Rampage, AA just are raw talents and have learned so much, still have a lot of holes, but have shown great technique

    The new Breed like Mousasi and Jose Aldo, they are the future it seems, just nasty on the feet and on the ground, just enjoy watching these guys grow
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    The 10 Fighters Who Changed The Game

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    • Warner2BruceTD
      2011 Poster Of The Year
      • Mar 2009
      • 26142

      #62
      Originally posted by KINGOFOOTBALL
      Anyways I think this UFC once again highlighted the serious flaws in MMA judging. The 10 point must , and the overvalued "take down" decided fights.
      I think John Mccarthy had it right when he said some of the refs just aren't qualified ((I think this UFC in particular they were working noob judged in)).
      I think Bas Rutten had it right when he said take downs that don't result in any damage or are immediately nullified shouldn't be weighed much if at all. Eliminating 10 point must and adding half points would also give judges more flexibility and give close rounds less important over more dominant ones.
      10-9 for razor thin, super close rounds.

      10-8 for rounds where one fighter clearly won the round.

      10-7 for a dominant round, where it's a miracle the guy wasn't finished. (current 10-8 criteria).

      This way, if you have two SUPER CLOSE rounds, and one round where one guy clearly dominates, the guy who won the dominate round CAN NOT LOSE. Because he shouldn't.

      Comment

      • Liquidrob
        Izzy is a bum
        • Feb 2009
        • 11785

        #63
        Originally posted by KINGOFOOTBALL
        Anyways I think this UFC once again highlighted the serious flaws in MMA judging. The 10 point must , and the overvalued "take down" decided fights.
        I think John Mccarthy had it right when he said some of the refs just aren't qualified ((I think this UFC in particular they were working noob judged in)).
        I think Bas Rutten had it right when he said take downs that don't result in any damage or are immediately nullified shouldn't be weighed much if at all. Eliminating 10 point must and adding half points would also give judges more flexibility and give close rounds less important over more dominant ones.
        yeah, judging is awful, guys shooting takedowns in the last 30 seconds can win rounds, etc...

        there needs to be more draws, people hate them, but they are needed

        also yellow cards would be nice
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        • KINGOFOOTBALL
          Junior Member
          • Feb 2009
          • 10343

          #64
          Originally posted by Liquidrob
          MMA is still a young sport, there are so many areas to be skilled in that its hard to find great technique everywhere, the sport is very much a jack of all trades sport at this point, with guys having there base and than trying to improve all the other areas

          Striking is probably the hardest to master, there are elite level wrestlers, grapplers, sub guys, etc...but striking is still the newest part to the sport, at least at a high level

          You wonรƒยขรขโ€šยฌรขโ€žยขt have pro boxer hands when you canรƒยขรขโ€šยฌรขโ€žยขt train on boxing all day every day, a boxer or kick boxer wonรƒยขรขโ€šยฌรขโ€žยขt get to Olympic or division I level wrestling because you canรƒยขรขโ€šยฌรขโ€žยขt do it everyday

          There just isnรƒยขรขโ€šยฌรขโ€žยขt enough time in the training day to be the best in all ranges; you just have to be competent in all the ranges to compete now a days.

          Cro Cop was a high level kick boxer, he learned how to stop takedowns, learned to not get subbed, but will never be a ADCC type of grappler, or Mark Coleman in the takedown department, he was technically good enough to compete in K1 and was the most feared HW striker in MMA for many years

          The sport by nature is an eclectic sport, we pull from kick boxing, wrestling, BJJ, Judo, K1, Thai, Karate, etcรƒยขรขโ€šยฌร‚ยฆit will take many many years to see the type of skill level you want to see from all the fighters

          I am waiting for legit boxers to make the transition at an early age, just like when the K1 guys were coming in, it upped everyoneรƒยขรขโ€šยฌรขโ€žยขs game in the striking department, we need more of that, right now wrestlers who work on there kick boxing for 6 months think they are kick boxers and when 2 of them meet it and just want to strike it is C level kick boxing and I donรƒยขรขโ€šยฌรขโ€žยขt really enjoy watching that
          I agree.

          I do think the nature of boxing and the fact that most trainers arent qualified to teach cross style is hindering alot of guys.
          You cant learn/teach boxing in the traditional sense and ever expect to to translate to MMA. The stance , the defense , some of the combination are just completely counter productive in MMA. But I do think in knowing that many guys dont concentrate on it enough and think they can get by with what essentially is just one combo with fast or heavy hands.

          I also think we're seeing alot of cookie cutter training/fighting . I love that guys from different disciplines ((Judo/Karate)) have had success.I think the more the mold is broken the likely hood of seeing a truly dominant fighter not named Fedor increases.
          Best reason to have a license.

          Comment

          • Kuzzy Powers
            Beautiful Like Moses
            • Oct 2008
            • 12542

            #65
            I think Vitor Belfort is one of the best strikers in MMA.. Wandy agrees.

            <div><object width="420" height="339"><param name="movie" value="http://www.dailymotion.com/swf/x6iqxr" /><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true" /><param name="allowScriptAccess" value="always" /><embed src="http://www.dailymotion.com/swf/x6iqxr" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="420" height="339" allowFullScreen="true" allowScriptAccess="always"></embed></object><br /><b><a href="http://www.dailymotion.com/swf/x6iqxr">Victor Belfort vs Wanderlei Silva 1998</a></b><br /><i>by <a href="http://www.dailymotion.com/LaNINJAA">LaNINJAA</a></i></div>
            Last edited by Kuzzy Powers; 06-15-2009, 12:04 PM.

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            • Liquidrob
              Izzy is a bum
              • Feb 2009
              • 11785

              #66
              Vitor is the man, I forgot him, he should be on the list, his issues are always mental, never question about technique

              Old Vitor and New Old Vitor are beasts
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              • Liquidrob
                Izzy is a bum
                • Feb 2009
                • 11785

                #67
                Also, for got to add Malaipet, great Thai Boxer, I wish more Thai's would make the switch, but I think there lack of footwork really hurts them and they cant get the takedown defense down because of it

                Mushin Corbbrey is also very skilled striker, I like his game, has the total package of striking, footwork, defense, etc...

                If you watch more of the lighter weights you will see some high skill level in the striking department
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                The 10 Fighters Who Changed The Game

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                • Liquidrob
                  Izzy is a bum
                  • Feb 2009
                  • 11785

                  #68
                  Originally posted by KINGOFOOTBALL
                  I agree.

                  I do think the nature of boxing and the fact that most trainers arent qualified to teach cross style is hindering alot of guys.
                  You cant learn/teach boxing in the traditional sense and ever expect to to translate to MMA. The stance , the defense , some of the combination are just completely counter productive in MMA. But I do think in knowing that many guys dont concentrate on it enough and think they can get by with what essentially is just one combo with fast or heavy hands.

                  I also think we're seeing alot of cookie cutter training/fighting . I love that guys from different disciplines ((Judo/Karate)) have had success.I think the more the mold is broken the likely hood of seeing a truly dominant fighter not named Fedor increases.
                  yeap, even guys like Freddie Roach, he knows his boxing of course, but half the stuff he teaches just wont translate and I think the boxing instructors ego just wont see it

                  watch PBF fight, his defense is tailor made to get taken down, his hands and covering up will get you on your back quick, Winky Wright, when he covers up with both arms in front, with boxing gloves it works, with little gloves the punches go right thru it, so you have to pick and choose what you want to learn and train for and understand you are still fighting in MMA and not a boxing match

                  people also forget MMA is a 3 round fight for the most part, people always get the idea that a boxer has this amazing 1 punch power (which some have), but they are not training for 1st or 2nd round KO's, they are training to wear you down, build up damage, out point you, etc...its a different game altogether

                  I think out of the boxing turned guys, Rampage has done a great job of it, but he still has dropped some of the stuff that worked well for him in the past like his clinch game and knees, like I said before, there just isnt enough time in the day to work it all

                  Randy would be a great role model for this, he boxes just enough to hurt you and get you thinking about it, but never forgot his roots and greco background which made him great

                  I think the dutch style of kick boxing is great for MMA at this point, Bas, Yvel, Oveerem, etc..it is pretty much power based, a lot of straight punches, etc...but you still need the sprawl game, takedown defense to make it work
                  Last edited by Liquidrob; 06-15-2009, 12:38 PM.
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                  • Steel Mamba
                    Nasty
                    • Nov 2008
                    • 2549

                    #69
                    Originally posted by Liquidrob
                    lol, those guys dont fit your requirements you used for cro cop, but cro cop isnt elite and those guys are?

                    This is what you said



                    AA has defense? He gets hit flush all the time, thats his biggest issue

                    Sherk? He has nice combos but has never beat anyone on his feet, pretty on the pads

                    BJ never threw a kick in his life, he has shown some flashes with his hands, but is more of a brawler and likes to scrap

                    Faber has really bad boxing technique

                    Diaz gets hit way to much, wheres the defense you are asking for?

                    Randy, sort of, 1 fight against chuck and than chuck with his 'no technique' KO's him clean twice, Randy doesnt have much power, but I like Randys style

                    Machida doesnt have good boxing technique, he proabbaly has the best tactical stand up going, but technique wise not really, Silva is all flash right now, dancing against Cote and Thales doesnt cut it, he probably is the most accurate though, when he has tried to kickbox and box he hasnt done that well

                    I could go on, but its early, you take away for cro cop's boxing, but dont count his kicks, his defense is as good as almost anyone on this list, plus Cro Cop has done more and out struck better fighters than any of these guys easily

                    You are again, like with Fedor, holding Cro Cop to a higher standard and basing these fighters on style over substance again

                    If those guys are 'elite' you cant tell me that Cro Cop was not, he has a better kicking game than everyone there and had a powerful straight left, he mostly got caught by grapplers and was looking for the shot, you dont think he has footwork? when he had his sprwal going and moving around the ring, his footwork was on point
                    I'm just trying to figure out that if his entire standup game is elite then why isn't he winning anymore? Still has the same speed and other aspects of his game seem to have gotten better, so why can't he stand and bang with the best of them anymore?

                    Footwork, he's quick on his feet for his size, but his footwork isn't exactly amazing either.
                    Look at this fight for example

                    [media]http://www.dailymotion.com/relevance/search/Mirko+Cro+Cop/video/x1la0p_mirko-cro-cop-vs-aleksander-emelian_sport[/media]

                    Running straight towards the power of Aleks, a better striker would have just cut off the ring instead of chasing Cro Cop and caught him flush with the way he's moving there.

                    I might be nit picking a bit, Cro Cop was a beast back in the day, but those guys I listed have less holes in their game than Cro Cop does. They might not have the physical attributes, but they're more technically sound. Also, I understand Diaz has his flaws, which is why I pointed oout that only a few aspects of his game puts him on that list for me. Mainly his work rate, combinations, and variety of punches that he throws, in those categories he's elite.

                    Comment

                    • Steel Mamba
                      Nasty
                      • Nov 2008
                      • 2549

                      #70
                      Originally posted by Warner2BruceTD
                      they'll just knock you the fuck out. Good list.
                      Yeah, unless they're matched against a technically sound striker that can pick apart the holes in their game. I'd consider a few of those guys on that list, but not the ones that rely on haymakers. There's too many sound strikers in the sport now to still consider that elite striking. Also, the jab is the most important punch that there is, it pisses me off when fighters would rather engage in a staring contest instead of trying to establish their jab.

                      Comment

                      • Steel Mamba
                        Nasty
                        • Nov 2008
                        • 2549

                        #71
                        Originally posted by Liquidrob
                        lol, those guys dont fit your requirements you used for cro cop, but cro cop isnt elite and those guys are?

                        This is what you said



                        AA has defense? He gets hit flush all the time, thats his biggest issue

                        Sherk? He has nice combos but has never beat anyone on his feet, pretty on the pads

                        BJ never threw a kick in his life, he has shown some flashes with his hands, but is more of a brawler and likes to scrap

                        Faber has really bad boxing technique

                        Diaz gets hit way to much, wheres the defense you are asking for?

                        Randy, sort of, 1 fight against chuck and than chuck with his 'no technique' KO's him clean twice, Randy doesnt have much power, but I like Randys style

                        Machida doesnt have good boxing technique, he proabbaly has the best tactical stand up going, but technique wise not really, Silva is all flash right now, dancing against Cote and Thales doesnt cut it, he probably is the most accurate though, when he has tried to kickbox and box he hasnt done that well

                        I could go on, but its early, you take away for cro cop's boxing, but dont count his kicks, his defense is as good as almost anyone on this list, plus Cro Cop has done more and out struck better fighters than any of these guys easily

                        You are again, like with Fedor, holding Cro Cop to a higher standard and basing these fighters on style over substance again

                        If those guys are 'elite' you cant tell me that Cro Cop was not, he has a better kicking game than everyone there and had a powerful straight left, he mostly got caught by grapplers and was looking for the shot, you dont think he has footwork? when he had his sprwal going and moving around the ring, his footwork was on point
                        oh and with Couture, like I said he's starting to make a claim as an elite striker. His striking is far better now than it was when he fought Chuck.

                        Comment

                        • Liquidrob
                          Izzy is a bum
                          • Feb 2009
                          • 11785

                          #72
                          Originally posted by Steel Mamba
                          I'm just trying to figure out that if his entire standup game is elite then why isn't he winning anymore? Still has the same speed and other aspects of his game seem to have gotten better, so why can't he stand and bang with the best of them anymore?

                          Footwork, he's quick on his feet for his size, but his footwork isn't exactly amazing either.
                          Look at this fight for example

                          [media]http://www.dailymotion.com/relevance/search/Mirko+Cro+Cop/video/x1la0p_mirko-cro-cop-vs-aleksander-emelian_sport[/media]

                          Running straight towards the power of Aleks, a better striker would have just cut off the ring instead of chasing Cro Cop and caught him flush with the way he's moving there.

                          I might be nit picking a bit, Cro Cop was a beast back in the day, but those guys I listed have less holes in their game than Cro Cop does. They might not have the physical attributes, but they're more technically sound. Also, I understand Diaz has his flaws, which is why I pointed oout that only a few aspects of his game puts him on that list for me. Mainly his work rate, combinations, and variety of punches that he throws, in those categories he's elite.
                          Mirko isnt in it mentally anymore, he has money, has outside interests like in his country, etc...you watch him and you know his head isnt right sometimes

                          my point was, if you go by your criteria those guys are not elite either if Cro Cop isnt, my other point about MMA is that you wont have these elite strikers with a total game, there just isnt enough time to train it all

                          All those guys you listed are very good strikers (minus sherk) and are the elite strikers of MMA which is different than being elite outside of MMA when compared to boxers and kick boxers

                          Cro Cop was never as good as Ernesto Hoost or Peter Aerts in K1, but Cro Cop did and was able to move over to MMA and have success, guys like Lebanner couldnt do it and Hunt is struggling, Cro Cop devolped a sprwal and ground defense game

                          Machida would never reach Andy Hug level of using Karate in K1, but Machida has a total game and is a top notch MMA guy combined with his BJJ and wrestling

                          Also, at some point I would like to see Anderson beat a high level striker in MMA, maybe a Manhoef, etc...but if he wants to take him down and win that is fine also because it is MMA and not kick boxing, Anderson has tried kick boxing and boxing with so so results earlier in his career
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                          The 10 Fighters Who Changed The Game

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                          • Liquidrob
                            Izzy is a bum
                            • Feb 2009
                            • 11785

                            #73
                            Originally posted by Steel Mamba
                            Yeah, unless they're matched against a technically sound striker that can pick apart the holes in their game. I'd consider a few of those guys on that list, but not the ones that rely on haymakers. There's too many sound strikers in the sport now to still consider that elite striking. Also, the jab is the most important punch that there is, it pisses me off when fighters would rather engage in a staring contest instead of trying to establish their jab.
                            establishing a jab could be a sound strategy in MMA, but its not as big as you think, when trying to work that jab and guys are throwing bombs with 4 ounce gloves it is a dangerous game, also you can take some solid lead leg kicks when trying to work the jab

                            fights were the jab was effective like Penn vs Sherk are different, Penn had reach on Sherk, also Sherk has midget arms and doesnt throw leg kicks, so it was perfect

                            If you get a good jab going, you still need sound defense which is a lot harder to have in MMA compared to boxing because of the glove size, I think the jab is only key in certain fights and where style dictates it, you cant go out in every fight and just say 'work the jab' in MMA
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                            The 10 Fighters Who Changed The Game

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                            • Steel Mamba
                              Nasty
                              • Nov 2008
                              • 2549

                              #74
                              Originally posted by Bigpapa42
                              So if CroCop can't be considered an elite striker because his kicks were more devastating than his hands, how could the opposite stand true? How could someone like Rampage who rarely uses kicks be considered elite? Sure, his hands, technique, footwork is all good... but he is still lacking a category. So therefore he couldn't be elite either. Same with Sherk, etc.
                              I didn't list Rampage as elite, but it wasn't due to his lack of kicks. I think Rampage has the potential to be the best striker in the LHW division, but I think he has fallen too in love with the counter hooks and that's all he seems to want to throw now. His best striking performance in the UFC so far was against Hendo IMO, where he really opened up and let his hands go. I'd like to see Rampage fight like that more often, showing a wider variety of strikes, initiating, while still working in his good defensive and counter techniques. Right now he's been fighting a bit too one-dimensional.

                              So, what I'm looking at is a lot more than just punching/kicking ability, which is why a few guys who don't kick are on my list while Cro Cop isn't. It's about the overall fundamentals and technical skills of their game. That's footwork, ring generalship, strategy, work-rate, variety, and overall offensive/defensive technique and ability. I think some of those guys score better throughout all of those categories than Cro Cop does.

                              Comment

                              • Steel Mamba
                                Nasty
                                • Nov 2008
                                • 2549

                                #75
                                Originally posted by Liquidrob
                                establishing a jab could be a sound strategy in MMA, but its not as big as you think, when trying to work that jab and guys are throwing bombs with 4 ounce gloves it is a dangerous game, also you can take some solid lead leg kicks when trying to work the jab

                                fights were the jab was effective like Penn vs Sherk are different, Penn had reach on Sherk, also Sherk has midget arms and doesnt throw leg kicks, so it was perfect

                                If you get a good jab going, you still need sound defense which is a lot harder to have in MMA compared to boxing because of the glove size, I think the jab is only key in certain fights and where style dictates it, you cant go out in every fight and just say 'work the jab' in MMA
                                I agree with that, the jab isn't of the same effectiveness as it is in boxing, but it's still important. Penn worked the jab on Hughes, Pulver, and a lot of other guys he fought, so it's not just about the reach adv.

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