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[2013] MLB Hall of Fame. Who Would you vote for?

Right, it had no teeth. Obviously MLB didn't take it seriously enough to be proactive about testing for it, so I'm not going to take it seriously either. Guys used the loophole, like I said, unless someone was actually punished under MLB rules, it's a moral issue and that's a silly stance when the Hall is filled with all kind of moral wrongdoers.

ehh, I'll differ with you here only because Mac knew it was against the rules, still did it, and admitted to it. That's good enough and better than a positive test for me. I know you'll liekly disagree but on my morality scale synthetic testosterone>greenies or a spit ball.

I just can't give Mac a pass since he admitted to it.
 
Okay I would like to talk about Alan Trammell. Only 19% of VSNers voted for him last year, and so far I'm the only one to vote for him this year (firsttimer has already dropped him from his ballot, not sure why). I believe Trammell deserves to be inducted into the Hall of Fame, here's my argument. Lets start by looking at the career numbers for a few players.

Player A: .285/.352/.415 69.5 WAR
Player B: .285/.342/.430 74.0 WAR


Strikingly similar numbers, and for good reason. They belong to two of the best shortstops of the 70's and 80's. Player A is Alan Trammell and Player B is Robin Yount. Robin Yount is already in the Hall of Fame while Trammell remains on the outside looking in. With such similar numbers, shouldn't they either both be in, or both out? For this argument of precedent to work, one has to believe Yount deserves to be in the Hall of Fame. Despite my obvious bias, I believe the assumption is correct. 77.5% of voters agreed with me when Yount was inducted as a first ballot Hall of Famer in 1999. So why the difference in opinion between the two players? They both had twenty year careers over the same period, their slash lines and WAR are almost exactly the same, Yount's OPS is only 5 points higher then Trammell's, and their wOBA is exactly the same. The difference comes in the counting stats. Yount had over 3,000 hits, Trammell only had 2,365. Robin Yount also had 66 more home runs, 35 more steals, 403 more RBIs, and 401 more runs. As usual baseball writer's have fallen over reliant on old fashioned counting statistics. Apparently Trammell does not have the milestone numbers that some voters look for. While 3,000 hits may be a way into the Hall of Fame, I do not think it should be a requirement. Trammell meets the 10 year requirement to be on the ballot; after that we can begin to ignore the counting stats and look at each player's peak.

Player A: 9,375 PA, 22.0 dWAR
Player B: 12,249 PA, 5.8 dWAR


Despite each playing for twenty years, Yount had almost 3,000 more at bats then Trammell. This explains why Yount's counting stats far exceed Trammell's, despite the almost identical rate stats. While Yount was able to stay relatively healthy throughout his career, Trammell was the victim of injuries. Considering their similar peaks and rate stats, I don't think it is fair to hold this against Trammell. After his age 29 season, Yount never played another game at SS, on the other hand Trammell played his entire career at SS. Playing the tougher position latter in his career, Trammell was made more susceptible to injury, leading to the missed playing time late in his career. While continuing to play the SS position hurt Trammell's counting stats, it didn't hurt his overall value at all. Trammell was an all time great defensive SS. His dWAR is the 34th highest of all time. This explains why Trammell and Yount's overall WAR numbers are so similar. Unfortunately, the current group of voters tend to overvalue counting statistics, and undervalue defense.

As I've already stated, I think it's fair to ignore Trammell's less then HOF milestone counting numbers due to the injuries late in his career. As long as his peak playing performance, and overall longevity are worthy of the Hall of Fame, then why should we concern ourselves with the numbers he put up late in his career? When compared to Robin Yount, Alan Trammell meets both requirements. They each twenty ML seasons, and their peak years are also similar. Trammell and Yount both had six seasons where their WAR was over 5.5. Dave Cameron wrote an article last year that compares the two player's peak years, which you can read here: http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/trammell-yount-and-the-value-of-career-length/

Now lets talk about something else voters tend to value, hardware. Alan Trammell certainly has that going for him. His Tiger's won the World Series in 1984, and Trammell was named the WS MVP. His postseason play was phenomenal, boasting a slash line of .333/.404/.588. Trammell also finished second in the AL MVP voting in 1987 (he received 12 out of 28 first place votes). Looking back on that season now, Trammell was much more deserving of the award then the actual winner George Bell. Other awards include 6 time All Star, 4 time Gold Glove winner, 3 time Silver Slugger.

Looking at the above argument, I think Trammell is a slamdunk candidate for the Hall of Fame. Looking forward to hearing why everyone seems to disagree.
 
When I was a kid, Robin Yount was always considered a "superstar", while Trammell was regarded as a "very good player". Doesn't mean a whole lot, just some perspective for you younger guys who weren't around on how they were perceived.

Yount was the best player in baseball in 1982. Yount won two MVP's. Yount has a decent amount of 'black ink' on his virtual baseball card, leading the league in hits, doubles, triples, OPS, etc. while Trammell has none. Yount has 3,000 hits, which while i'm not arguing is a slam dunk argument ender, it should still matter when Trammell doesn't even come close. Yount's 1982 ranks as one of the greatest seasons by a shortstop ever.

I don't think Yount is significantly better than Trammell, but I think he's better. And I think the hall of fame line lies someplace between the two. I lean 'no' on Trammell. He was never 'great'.
 
I think you guys are way too eager to put dudes in.

Why is Biggio a hall of famer? He played 20 seasons and got his 3k hit in his 20th season, not like he hit 3k in his 14th year and was on pace for 4k or something.

In 20 seasons Biggio had 200 hits......once. He hit .300 only four times. I'd expect any Major League player to hit .300 at least a couple times if they played 20 full seasons just by luck.

Was he a big time post season player? Noope. Matter of fact he was pretty lousy in postseason play.
BA OBP SLG OPS
This is the Average Batting HOFer .303 .376 .462 .838

Craig Biggio .281 .363 .433 .796 all well below, closest is OBP and thats 13 points the rest are not even in the area code.



Craig Biggio is not a hall of famer, he got 3k hits because he played 20 injury free years thats an average of 150 hits a season, not hard to get if you play injury free. He never won anything and on the rare occassion the Atros got into the post season he was lousy. All while playing in the steroid era, he was never the best player in the league in fact he wasnt even the best player on his own team.
 
I put Biggio in because in addition to his offensive numbers he also proved to be valuable as a catcher, second baseman, and outfielder. Very few players have that kind of versatility. Plus he has some weird stats like :

*In 1997, became the first player in baseball history not to hit into a single double play while playing an entire 162 game season.

*In 1998 became the second player to have 50 stolen bases and 50 doubles in the same season.

*Led the Majors in runs scored in 1995 and 1997 and in doubles in 1998 and 1999
 
When I was a kid, Robin Yount was always considered a "superstar", while Trammell was regarded as a "very good player". Doesn't mean a whole lot, just some perspective for you younger guys who weren't around on how they were perceived.

Yount was the best player in baseball in 1982. Yount won two MVP's. Yount has a decent amount of 'black ink' on his virtual baseball card, leading the league in hits, doubles, triples, OPS, etc. while Trammell has none. Yount has 3,000 hits, which while i'm not arguing is a slam dunk argument ender, it should still matter when Trammell doesn't even come close. Yount's 1982 ranks as one of the greatest seasons by a shortstop ever.

I don't think Yount is significantly better than Trammell, but I think he's better. And I think the hall of fame line lies someplace between the two. I lean 'no' on Trammell. He was never 'great'.

Lets compare Yount's '82 season to Trammell's 1987 season when he finished second in MVP voting, and arguable should have won.

Yount: .331/.379/.578, 29 HRs, 14 SBs
Trammell: .343/.402/.551, 28 HRs, 21 SBs

It looks to me as if Trammell's best season was just as good as Yount's. I think the line between the two players is closer then you think.
 
I think you guys are way too eager to put dudes in.

Why is Biggio a hall of famer? He played 20 seasons and got his 3k hit in his 20th season, not like he hit 3k in his 14th year and was on pace for 4k or something.

In 20 seasons Biggio had 200 hits......once. He hit .300 only four times. I'd expect any Major League player to hit .300 at least a couple times if they played 20 full seasons just by luck.

Was he a big time post season player? Noope. Matter of fact he was pretty lousy in postseason play.
BA OBP SLG OPS
This is the Average Batting HOFer .303 .376 .462 .838

Craig Biggio .281 .363 .433 .796 all well below, closest is OBP and thats 13 points the rest are not even in the area code.



Craig Biggio is not a hall of famer, he got 3k hits because he played 20 injury free years thats an average of 150 hits a season, not hard to get if you play injury free. He never won anything and on the rare occassion the Atros got into the post season he was lousy. All while playing in the steroid era, he was never the best player in the league in fact he wasnt even the best player on his own team.

Between 92-99, during his prime years, Biggio was pretty much a .400 OBA/.500 SLG/.900 OPS second baseman. He's one of the best second baseman of all time. There are people who, for parts of that stretch, though he was the second best player in baseball behind Bonds (Bill James & others). Check his five year WAR from about 94-98 or so. He was a great baserunner, with a great SB% and hardly ever hit into double plays (like SuperKevin noted), giving him great hidden value. He is a great "secondary average" player.

Throw in his 3,000 hits, which I haven't even mentioned yet, and his 668 doubles (which were hardly cheaply compiled considering he led the league multiple times including years over 50), and you have a slam dunk Hall of Fame player in my eyes. Biggio is an all time great at his position, what more do you want?
 
Okay I would like to talk about Alan Trammell. Only 19% of VSNers voted for him last year, and so far I'm the only one to vote for him this year (firsttimer has already dropped him from his ballot, not sure why). I believe Trammell deserves to be inducted into the Hall of Fame, here's my argument. Lets start by looking at the career numbers for a few players.

Player A: .285/.352/.415 69.5 WAR
Player B: .285/.342/.430 74.0 WAR


Strikingly similar numbers, and for good reason. They belong to two of the best shortstops of the 70's and 80's. Player A is Alan Trammell and Player B is Robin Yount. Robin Yount is already in the Hall of Fame while Trammell remains on the outside looking in. With such similar numbers, shouldn't they either both be in, or both out? For this argument of precedent to work, one has to believe Yount deserves to be in the Hall of Fame. Despite my obvious bias, I believe the assumption is correct. 77.5% of voters agreed with me when Yount was inducted as a first ballot Hall of Famer in 1999. So why the difference in opinion between the two players? They both had twenty year careers over the same period, their slash lines and WAR are almost exactly the same, Yount's OPS is only 5 points higher then Trammell's, and their wOBA is exactly the same. The difference comes in the counting stats. Yount had over 3,000 hits, Trammell only had 2,365. Robin Yount also had 66 more home runs, 35 more steals, 403 more RBIs, and 401 more runs. As usual baseball writer's have fallen over reliant on old fashioned counting statistics. Apparently Trammell does not have the milestone numbers that some voters look for. While 3,000 hits may be a way into the Hall of Fame, I do not think it should be a requirement. Trammell meets the 10 year requirement to be on the ballot; after that we can begin to ignore the counting stats and look at each player's peak.

Player A: 9,375 PA, 22.0 dWAR
Player B: 12,249 PA, 5.8 dWAR


Despite each playing for twenty years, Yount had almost 3,000 more at bats then Trammell. This explains why Yount's counting stats far exceed Trammell's, despite the almost identical rate stats. While Yount was able to stay relatively healthy throughout his career, Trammell was the victim of injuries. Considering their similar peaks and rate stats, I don't think it is fair to hold this against Trammell. After his age 29 season, Yount never played another game at SS, on the other hand Trammell played his entire career at SS. Playing the tougher position latter in his career, Trammell was made more susceptible to injury, leading to the missed playing time late in his career. While continuing to play the SS position hurt Trammell's counting stats, it didn't hurt his overall value at all. Trammell was an all time great defensive SS. His dWAR is the 34th highest of all time. This explains why Trammell and Yount's overall WAR numbers are so similar. Unfortunately, the current group of voters tend to overvalue counting statistics, and undervalue defense.

As I've already stated, I think it's fair to ignore Trammell's less then HOF milestone counting numbers due to the injuries late in his career. As long as his peak playing performance, and overall longevity are worthy of the Hall of Fame, then why should we concern ourselves with the numbers he put up late in his career? When compared to Robin Yount, Alan Trammell meets both requirements. They each twenty ML seasons, and their peak years are also similar. Trammell and Yount both had six seasons where their WAR was over 5.5. Dave Cameron wrote an article last year that compares the two player's peak years, which you can read here: http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/trammell-yount-and-the-value-of-career-length/

Now lets talk about something else voters tend to value, hardware. Alan Trammell certainly has that going for him. His Tiger's won the World Series in 1984, and Trammell was named the WS MVP. His postseason play was phenomenal, boasting a slash line of .333/.404/.588. Trammell also finished second in the AL MVP voting in 1987 (he received 12 out of 28 first place votes). Looking back on that season now, Trammell was much more deserving of the award then the actual winner George Bell. Other awards include 6 time All Star, 4 time Gold Glove winner, 3 time Silver Slugger.

Looking at the above argument, I think Trammell is a slamdunk candidate for the Hall of Fame. Looking forward to hearing why everyone seems to disagree.

Wut the hell are you talking about?
 
Lets compare Yount's '82 season to Trammell's 1987 season when he finished second in MVP voting, and arguable should have won.

Yount: .331/.379/.578, 29 HRs, 14 SBs
Trammell: .343/.402/.551, 28 HRs, 21 SBs

It looks to me as if Trammell's best season was just as good as Yount's. I think the line between the two players is closer then you think.

Noted.

I still prefer the Yount resume.
 
Bagwell
Biggio
McGriff
Palmeiro
Schilling
Walker
Lofton
Piazza
Trammell
Raines

I just hope my vote counts for this:cmpunk:
 
Gooby have you read the Hall of Nearly Great e-book?

NBC Hardball Talk's Craig Calcaterra takes a real good look at Trammell. Bill James has done a lot of great work regarding Trammell as well.
 
Palmeiro, but no Bonds? :lefty:

Just personal preference. I guess it's homerism in that I believe Palmeiro somewhat, but not Bonds. Either way, his remarkable consistency is why I would vote for him actually.
 
Gooby have you read the Hall of Nearly Great e-book?

NBC Hardball Talk's Craig Calcaterra takes a real good look at Trammell. Bill James has done a lot of great work regarding Trammell as well.
I believe Bill James ranked Trammell the 7th best Shortstop of all time.
 
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