[2013] MLB Hall of Fame. Who Would you vote for?

[Senser81]

I added another portion to my post, sorry. Raffy because he tested positive and was suspended. McGwire had something in his locker that wasn't tested/illegal at the time.

LOL at this. You don't think McGwire purposely put the Andro on display in his locker, in full view of everyone, to distract from/misdirect from his actual steroid use? Thats almost as naive as people thinking that steroids "don't help you hit a baseball".

 

[Senser81]

Eh, McGwire was just a better player to me.

Palmeiro was .288/.371/.515, 132 OPS+, 66.1 WAR
McGwire .263/.394/.588, 163 OPS+, 58.7 WAR

Obviously defense hurts McGwire, but those are pretty unprecedented (and aided but you know my stance) power numbers.

Not disagreeing that McGwire was a better player, but Ralphie was a somewhat different type of player than McGwire. For one, he was more durable. Two, he also played longer than McGwire. Both of these things hurts Ralphie's percentage stats, but also gives Ralphie a huge edge in hits (3020 to 1626) and basically every other major stat category other than HRs (R, RBI, 2B, 3B). I think Palmeiro ended up with 3000 hits and 550 HR is more impressive than anything McGwire accomplished.

 

[Senser81]

Yount had over 3,000 hits, Trammell only had 2,365. Robin Yount also had 66 more home runs, 35 more steals, 403 more RBIs, and 401 more runs. As usual baseball writer's have fallen over reliant on old fashioned counting statistics.

This made me LOL. I think Yount is one of the weaker HOF members, and I don't know if he would have gotten in had he not reached 3000 hits....but this comparison to Trammell is somewhat ridiculous.

One, its not like Yount has 3001 hits and Trammell has 2990. Since you couldn't even bring yourself to give Yount's actual total, its 3142 hits to 2365 hits. Thats a difference of nearly 800, which is significant. Same holds true for the other 'counting statistics'.

Two, you not only brush off this 'mere difference' and quickly move on to judging each player at their peak by using the unreliable dWAR (what happened to Yount's two MVPs?), you make it sound as if its the baseball writers' fault that Trammell has nearly 800 less hits than Yount, instead of treating it as an assertion of fact.

 

[Senser81]

Lets compare Yount's '82 season to Trammell's 1987 season when he finished second in MVP voting, and arguable should have won.

Yount: .331/.379/.578, 29 HRs, 14 SBs
Trammell: .343/.402/.551, 28 HRs, 21 SBs

It looks to me as if Trammell's best season was just as good as Yount's. I think the line between the two players is closer then you think.

Kind of unfair, because 1987 was a nearly unprecedented hitting year for everyone. Even with those numbers, Trammell's 87 season is no different than "immortals" like Larry Sheets and Danny Tartabull. A great season no doubt, but you have to look at things relatively.

 

[FedEx227]

LOL at this. You don't think McGwire purposely put the Andro on display in his locker, in full view of everyone, to distract from/misdirect from his actual steroid use? Thats almost as naive as people thinking that steroids "don't help you hit a baseball".

Again, if it was such a big deal to MLB, you think they would've tested for it. I'm not about to drag a guy through the mud for hearsay, rumors and eye tests. Did McGwire probably cheat? Yeah, he admitted it. Despite it being illegal by MLB at the time, it had no punishment, so that's why I say it becomes a moral issue at that point. It was illegal, yes, but holy shit if there was no punishment for doing something illegal in our everyday lives would you and I stop doing it?

And even though you think it's niave, there's been numerous studies done by people significantly smarter than you showing tighter baseballs, smaller parks and bad pitching contributed to more homers than steroids, but I won't get into that since it's a deadend path on VSN.

 

[Senser81]

Again, if it was such a big deal to MLB, you think they would've tested for it. I'm not about to drag a guy through the mud for hearsay, rumors and eye tests. Did McGwire probably cheat? Yeah, he admitted it. Despite it being illegal by MLB at the time, it had no punishment, so that's why I say it becomes a moral issue at that point. It was illegal, yes, but holy shit if there was no punishment for doing something illegal in our everyday lives would you and I stop doing it?

Not really what I was talking about. And its a bit self-serving to say that Ralphie tested positive while McGwire didn't...one, because McGwire admitted to juicing anyways, two, because McGwire conveniently stopped playing when MLB started testing for steroids. Its like the "show me where Brady Anderson tested positive for steroids!" people, except this time Brady would have already admitted to taking steroids.

And even though you think it's niave, there's been numerous studies done by people significantly smarter than you showing tighter baseballs, smaller parks and bad pitching contributed to more homers than steroids, but I won't get into that since it's a deadend path on VSN.

Thats nice. Again, not really the issue. We are talking about specific players. What helped Mark McGwire more...steroids, or tighter baseballs?

I could say that defensive schemes/bad offensive line play/more passing has led to NFL players getting more sacks, but that doesn't really let Shawn Merriman off the hook, does it?

 

[jms493]

Not really what I was talking about. And its a bit self-serving to say that Ralphie tested positive while McGwire didn't...one, because McGwire admitted to juicing anyways, two, because McGwire conveniently stopped playing when MLB started testing for steroids. Its like the "show me where Brady Anderson tested positive for steroids!" people, except this time Brady would have already admitted to taking steroids.




Thats nice. Again, not really the issue. We are talking about specific players. What helped Mark McGwire more...steroids, or tighter baseballs?

I could say that defensive schemes/bad offensive line play/more passing has led to NFL players getting more sacks, but that doesn't really let Shawn Merriman off the hook, does it?

man has a point :thumbsup:

 

[FedEx227]

I don't know which helped him more and neither do you. Again, none of the steroid discussion is really grounded in facts as they pertain to MLB. We know they took but in baseball's eyes, they didn't. In baseball's eyes, they were never punished so to me, I go by the merit of their numbers. Is that stupid or naive...? Maybe but I'm not about to judge steroid guys any differently than any number of PED users over the course of baseball history that receive no scorn. If you want to argue the ole "Greenies don't nearly have the impact of steroids" then whatever, that's your opinion, I don't want to do that for the 90th time.

Again as I've said, if there was no punishment, no testing, no real teeth besides "hey guys, you want to stop doing that? Thanks!" it becomes a moral issue. I'm not about to keep racists, color-barrier protectors, women beaters, etc. in the Hall and take a pitchfork to guys who used steroids.

Also using that analogy (and who knew you'd use one of those) is pretty silly given that the impact of steroids in the game of baseball in absolutely no ways equal the impact steroids could have on a football game. Baseball is and always has been a game of endurance more than pure strength.

 

[Senser81]

I don't know which helped him more and neither do you.

But what about those people who are significantly smarter than me? You know, the ones who conducted those numerous studies which concluded that steroids didn't help Mark McGwire as much as tighter baseballs?

Also using that analogy (and who knew you'd use one of those) is pretty silly given that the impact of steroids in the game of baseball in absolutely no ways equal the impact steroids could have on a football game. Baseball is and always has been a game of endurance more than pure strength.

Is that based on another study done by people significantly smarter than myself?

Putting your statement in context of Mark McGwire, are you saying that McGwire's pure strength played a minor role in his success...it was really his endurance? Odd, especially considering that McGwire's body was broken down before taking steroids.

So now steroids only help with strength, not endurance. I'm sure thats why guys like Clemens were putting up sub 2.00 ERAs in their late 30's, and guys like Bonds were having career years in their mid-30's. Waiting for a study to show that smaller parks helped these guys stay at the top of their game in the twilight of their career.

 

[FedEx227]

Perhaps, in no small part, being two of the top 5 players at their position all time played a factor? You said guys like Clemens and guys like Bonds like there was tons of dudes running around putting up best of all time numbers other than... you know... best of all-time guys like Bonds and Clemens.

 

[FirstTimer]

Again, if it was such a big deal to MLB, you think they would've tested for it. I'm not about to drag a guy through the mud for hearsay, rumors and eye tests. Did McGwire probably cheat? Yeah, he admitted it. Despite it being illegal by MLB at the time, it had no punishment, so that's why I say it becomes a moral issue at that point. It was illegal, yes, but holy shit if there was no punishment for doing something illegal in our everyday lives would you and I stop doing it?

And even though you think it's niave, there's been numerous studies done by people significantly smarter than you showing tighter baseballs, smaller parks and bad pitching contributed to more homers than steroids, but I won't get into that since it's a deadend path on VSN.

You're not.

You'd be "dragging him through the mud" because he actually cheated and admitted to it.

 

[Senser81]

Perhaps, in no small part, being two of the top 5 players at their position all time played a factor? You said guys like Clemens and guys like Bonds like there was tons of dudes running around putting up best of all time numbers other than... you know... best of all-time guys like Bonds and Clemens.

Wow, I feel like I'm arguing with Bud Selig/Ricky Duckworth here. The career arcs of Bonds and Clemens are perfectly normal, because they are "best of all time guys".

Steroids don't help with endurance....got it! Steroids played no role in the success of Bonds and Clemens...got it! Guys like Ralphie Palermo, Sammy Sosa, etc. don't really factor into the discussion because they aren't best of all-time guys. Same goes for lesser steroid guys like Jose Canseco, Ken Caminiti, Pudge Rodriguez, Andy Petite, etc.

What are you even arguing? Perhaps we are getting off-base. My issue was with you not voting for Palermo because he "tested positive", and voting for McGwire because he didn't test positive. Kind of a weird way to dissect the issue, IMO. And if you claim that McGwire was just such a great player he deserves to go in, then how can you keep Palermo out based on his numbers?

 

[FirstTimer]

I don't know which helped him more and neither do you. Again, none of the steroid discussion is really grounded in facts as they pertain to MLB. We know they took but in baseball's eyes, they didn't. In baseball's eyes, they were never punished so to me, I go by the merit of their numbers. Is that stupid or naive...? Maybe but I'm not about to judge steroid guys any differently than any number of PED users over the course of baseball history that receive no scorn. If you want to argue the ole "Greenies don't nearly have the impact of steroids" then whatever, that's your opinion, I don't want to do that for the 90th time.

Again as I've said, if there was no punishment, no testing, no real teeth besides "hey guys, you want to stop doing that? Thanks!" it becomes a moral issue. I'm not about to keep racists, color-barrier protectors, women beaters, etc. in the Hall and take a pitchfork to guys who used steroids.

Also using that analogy (and who knew you'd use one of those) is pretty silly given that the impact of steroids in the game of baseball in absolutely no ways equal the impact steroids could have on a football game. Baseball is and always has been a game of endurance more than pure strength.

Ok, but that also let's Big Mac off because the Players Union was the one resisting allowing the testing to begin with. MLB couldn't have unilaterally begun testing. The Players Union would need to approve it. They fought it tooth and nail..and even still today in some cases. Was Mac a driving force behind the resisting? I don't know. But the issue is that the policy didn't have teeth because the cheaters themselves, like Mac, helped to prevent it from having teeth.

 

[FedEx227]

When did I ever say I would never vote Palmero in? He'd be worthy eventually, it's a loaded year. We were given a limit of 10. I picked 10 guys.

 

[FedEx227]

Actually, looking back and thinking about it. No, I wouldn't let him in. He actually broke a rule that was punishable by the MLB. You could argue his suspension was punishment, but I still think there's different categories for guys that were tested, caught and punished versus guys who either admitted it after the fact or were never found guilty.

 

[Senser81]

Actually, looking back and thinking about it. No, I wouldn't let him in. He actually broke a rule that was punishable by the MLB. You could argue his suspension was punishment, but I still think there's different categories for guys that were tested, caught and punished versus guys who either admitted it after the fact or were never found guilty.

Good one. So McGwire is rewarded for avoiding the testing. And you are essentially penalizing Palermo for his own stupidity, not for his steroid use. Because if you were keeping Palermo out for his steroid use, you'd have to do the same for McGwire. I'm seeing a huge gap in "reasoning" on this one.

 

[Senser81]

When did I ever say I would never vote Palmero in? He'd be worthy eventually, it's a loaded year. We were given a limit of 10. I picked 10 guys.

This is almost worse...so are you saying that Palermo's numbers are worse than guys like Biggio and Raines? REALLY?

 

[FedEx227]

Good one. So McGwire is rewarded for avoiding the testing. And you are essentially penalizing Palermo for his own stupidity, not for his steroid use. Because if you were keeping Palermo out for his steroid use, you'd have to do the same for McGwire. I'm seeing a huge gap in "reasoning" on this one.

What gap?

The fucker knew they were testing, knew the rules, knew the punishment and still got caught. You should be punished for your own stupidity in that case. Millions of Americans do illegal things and get away with it and likewise aren't punished the same as those who do illegal things but are stupid enough to get caught doing it. see: Marijuana possession

 

[Senser81]

What gap?

The fucker knew they were testing, knew the rules, knew the punishment and still got caught. You should be punished for your own stupidity in that case. Millions of Americans do illegal things and get away with it and likewise aren't punished the same as those who do illegal things but are stupid enough to get caught using it.

You aren't punishing people for committing the crime...you are punishing people for getting caught. How do you not see this?

 

[FedEx227]

Well that's an unprecedented viewpoint!

That's not how every justice system ever has worked.