Does Ron Santo belong in the HOF?

[zack54attack]

I had this debate on that Radio show Rush did... Now I want all you opinons..

Third Baseman Ron Santo

Stats: .277 AVG, .362 OBP, .464 SLG, .826 OPS, 2,254 hits, 365 Doubles, 67 Triples, 342 HR, 1,331 RBI, 35 SB, 1,108 Walks...


Other Notes: (use them for what they are worth)
-Winner of five consecutive Gold Golves
-9 Time NL All-Star
-Led the league in Walks 4 times.
-Led the League in OBP 2 times.
-Led The league in Triples 1 time.
-Batted .300 and hit 30 HR, Four times.
-Only Third Baseman in Major League History To have 8 consecutive seasons with 90 RBI's
-Second Player at his posistion to hit over 300 HR's.
-Also battled Diabetes during his career.


So HOF or no?

 

[chazmaniandevil]

what years did he play

 

[Lanteri]

He's borderline. If he had a longer career he would be a lock. He's about 7th in my top behind Schmidt, Matthews, Brett, Boggs, Robinson, and Chipper Jones.

The five gold gloves help his cause, and the fact that he was a primetime 3rd baseman for about 10 years does as well. Drove in 100 runs 4 times. The on base percentage is the most impressive of his stats.

It's tough cause he doesn't have a lot of the magic #s that seem to go with the HOF. 500 HRs, 3,000 hits, etc. Never won an MVP.

He's extremely borderline, but I would say yes simply because he's top 10 all time at his position.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

If you put Ron Santo in the HOF, you open up discussion for a whole lot of very average players who were much better than he was.

He was a good player. You don't have to put every good player in the HOF. He's not an immortal.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

This is a good tool when debating something like this...complete this lineage with the player in question, and see if it seems absurd:

Babe Ruth, Ty Cobb, Willie Mays, Stan Musial, Ted Williams.....Ron Santo.

Um, no.

 

[Senser81]

The only thing Santo has going for him s that he played for a long time in the MLB and had a middle-of-the-road career.

Nice capsulation of Santo's career. He was easily the best 3rd baseman in the NL when he played. Very good all-around player. Brooks Robinson was a great fielder, but Santo was a much better hitter and a good fielder in his own right. Robinson had the postseason heroics, which gave him a huge advantage over Santo.

If I were in control of the HOF I'd put Santo in, because he was a great hitter and a great fielder at an important fielding position. But since the baseball HOF is obsessed with hitting stats, he is borderline.

 

[Senser81]

15 points higher than Ozzie Smiths average and WAY more power

but Ozzie got a pass because he was, rightly or wrongly, considered the best fielding SS in history. I think Brooks Robinson holds the best fielding 3B title, not Santo.

 

[FirstTimer]

If Brooks Robinson in then IMO Santo deserves to be in. Honestly, I think he would be by now but I have heard(correct me if I'm wrong) That Santo's constant campaigning for the HOF turned off voters in both the writing and veterens committee. Plus the rabid Cubs fan base hurts him too as many times they are overly zealous about wanting him in.

IMO Santo is a HOF'er.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

Yeah but your taking the best of the best.

Try it like this

Orlando Cepeda, Robin Yount, Ron Santo

Me, I dont really think so but I'm not voting.

The HOF is supposed to be the best of the best.

Putting guys like Santo in to begin with is what opens the floodgates.

 

[FirstTimer]

The HOF is supposed to be the best of the best.

Putting guys like Santo in to begin with is what opens the floodgates.

Sorry W2B the floodgates have already been opened. A LONG time ago.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

Sorry W2B the floodgates have already been opened. A LONG time ago.

Yeah, I get it.

But if they keep putting in the "pretty good" players like Santo, you inevitably get someone like Phil Rizzuto or Bill Mazeroski in, lowering the bar even further.

Milestone numbers don't help, either. Don Sutton? Really? Right next to Sandy Koufax and Walter Johnson?

 

[FirstTimer]

Yeah, I get it.

But if they keep putting in the "pretty good" players like Santo, you inevitably get someone like Phil Rizzuto or Bill Mazeroski in, lowering the bar even further.

Milestone numbers don't help, either. Don Sutton? Really? Right next to Sandy Koufax and Walter Johnson?

HOF debates in every sport are always interesting. Literally it's the Hall of Fame, not Hall of Stats but it's obvious stats help you get in. Frankly, between Santo's very good playing career and his broadcasting career I don't see how he doesn't qualify for the HOF. There are guys in the HOF right now who did nothing but have marginal careers and made it let alone a guy like Santo who compares very very favorably with Robinson who is seen as a no brainer HOF guy so not sure how Santo doesn't belong in.

Yeah you can argue and say other average guys might sneak in but IMO this doesn't apply to Santo because IMO he isn't an "average" player.

 

[Senser81]

Fine, but since when does being the tallest midget get you into the HOF? Santo has a career total fielding runs above average per year of 1.7 at third base, which isn't really all that exciting. For instance, Kevin Youkilis (a player who is coveted for his offensive skills more than his defensive skills at 3B) has a mark of 5.4 runs above average in the same category. So to say that he was the best fielder of his time isn't saying much in the least, as he really wasn't that good. His offensive numbers are more than meh, so once again, the only thing he has going for him is that he played for a long time for the Cubs, clicked his heels, and has diabetes now. That is not a HOFer. Just because there are borderline players in the Hall now should not be a license to put more of them into the HOF.

Last I checked, 3rd basemen play 162 games a year, and Santo usually played every game. Not exactly "tallest midget" stuff, unless you think guys like Mike Schmidt and George Brett somehow contributed less to their teams than other players. As I said before, the only other contemporary 3rd baseman in Santo's class was Brooks Robinson.

Santo was a perennial gold glove winner and all-star. I guess these facts can be refuted by some make-believe fielding stat for Kevin Youkilis? Nice. As for Santo's hitting stats, the 1960's were terrible for offense. Some years there would only be one or two players in the majors hitting .300. Santo's numbers are very good for that era, and the best any 3rd baseman produced.

I'm not saying he's a HOFer, but I think he's a little bit better than 'average', and I think the 'arguments' you've put forth are retarded.

 

[zack54attack]

And Gold Gloves are an indicator of a player's defensive abilities...how, exactly? Derek Jeter has 3 of them, I rest my case.

I have no clue why people ignore the Gold Glove award and think its lame.

Defense is just as much of a part of baseball as offense is. Well in the NL i suppose. Gold Golves do mean a lot.

The Gold Golve goes to the best defensive player at their position. So why should Gold Gloves not count towards a players HOF status? I mean he was the best defensive player at his postion for those years he won it.

Also, Jeter is not that bad of a SS.

 

[zack54attack]

I disagree.

The Gold Golve is important in baseball. It's not a award that will automatically get you the HOF. But it should help.

 

[zack54attack]

Jeter is not the worst defensive SS. LOL. I dont know where your getting that from.

 

[zack54attack]

LOL at basing it off one list.

 

[Youk]

In Jeter's Gold Glove seasons:

(for F% I ranked him based off of players who have played at least 100 games)

2004 - 4th in Fielding Percentage, 8th most errors, 4th in total FRAA
2005 - 2nd in Fielding Percentage, 9th most errors, 55th in total FRAA
2006 - 5th in Fielding Percentage, 7th most errors, 51st in total FRAA


Orlando Cabrera should have won in 2005, by the way. I wouldn't call him the worst, but he is HUGELY overrated fielding-wise, not a Gold Glove-type SS.

 

[zack54attack]

I'm not saying Jeter is the best SS in the game. He isnt.

But he is also not the worst. There are worst SS than him. I really dont get how they followed every ball hit to him and other SS, but say he's the worst. They base it off errors. Errors happen to everyone.

Look at arguably the greatest SS to play the game, Ozzie Smith. 289 Errors in his 19 year careeer. Jeter has 209 Errors in his 15 year career.

 

[Youk]

I'm not saying Jeter is the best SS in the game. He isnt.

But he is also not the worst. There are worst SS than him. I really dont get how they followed every ball hit to him and other SS, but say he's the worst. They base it off errors. Errors happen to everyone.

Look at arguably the greatest SS to play the game, Ozzie Smith. 289 Errors in his 19 year careeer. Jeter has 209 Errors in his 15 year career.

Or look at Omar Vizquel, who played around the same time as Jeter. 21 seasons, 183 errors, .985 F%, 127.7 FRAA. In 15 seasons, Jeter has 209 errors, a .975 F%, and a -122.6 FRAA. Jeter also NEVER had a season where his F% was higher than .990, with .988 being his highest.

That's a difference of 6 seasons, 26 errors, 10 points of F%, and 250.3 difference in FRAA.