Donovan McNabb and the Hall of Fame

[Buzzman]

I hate all the McNabb hate.
25-26 NFL teams would have killed for a QB with his W-L during his Philadelphia run.
I am not saying he is the best QB of his generation or anything, but the amount of hate this guy gets is unbelieveable.

you kidding me? You think the Eagles consistently won because of McNabb?

 

[dave]

you kidding me? You think the Eagles consistently won because of McNabb?

I am not saying they consistently won because of McNabb, but you can't completely throw his contribution out the window. He was the QB and they ran a pass-first offense.

 

[Esjay]

No. Overrated, inaccurate whiny ass.

 

[dave]

No. Overrated, inaccurate whiny ass.

I don't get the "whiny ass" comment. He was classy as hell about the Rush Limbaugh and TO crap, never commenting. Hell, same thing for Shanahan. Shanahan called him out of shape and McNabb never made a public comment.

How is he a whiny ass?

 

[Shayn•Da•Pain]

I don't hate McNabb. He's just overrated. He was streaky IMO, and never the model of consistency, irrespective of the Eagles winning percentage for his time there. In 2003, in the middle of the Eagles streak of appearing in 5 consecutive NFC Championship games, McNabb started the season with a 63.5 QB rating over the first 9 games. He was horrible that year, and yet they were still 6-3 by that point, and ended the year 12-4, first in the NFC if I'm not mistaken. I don't know how often I saw McNabb have just 3 horrendous quarters and just one amazing quarter when he'd blow up out of nowhere. It was odd seeing him go from total crap to amazing so quickly, and crash back down again. That's just how I remember the guy, for the most part. He was better at being consistent more in some seasons, but not all of the. Question, wasn't he injured often as well?

 

[dell71]

I am not saying they consistently won because of McNabb, but you can't completely throw his contribution out the window. He was the QB and they ran a pass-first offense.

This.

Sure, he hasn't won a ring yet but getting your team to 5 conference championships carries a lot of weight. To say he's a loser is totally unfair. Statistically, he's rarely been pretty but he's effective. But even in his stats there are some things to be uncovered.

2004 was his only statistically dominant year. It also happened to be the only year he had above average talent at the WR position. A big chunk of his career was spent throwing to James Thrash and Todd Pinkston. Yet, he still had a pretty lengthy stretch where he was considered by many to be among the top 5 QB's in the game.

He never threw for 4000 yards or led the league in anything. Part of that is because of a more legit knock on him - he missed games due to injury almost every season. In 2004 through '06 and again in '09 & '10, he was on pace to go over 4K yds but didn't play a full season. 8 times he finished top 10 in passing yards/game. By comparison, John Elway did it 9 times and 3 of those came at age 35 or older. McNabb will be 35 in November. 5 times McNabb has finished among top 10 in passer rating. Elway's done it 5 times, again a couple of those very late in his career.

I don't bring up that sacred name to say McNabb is as good as Elway, because I don't think that at all. I do want to make a couple other points, though. First, early in Elway's career he played with a lot of average joes on offense and so did McNabb. I think he has to be given some credit for getting those guys he played with as far as he did. Yes, he did have better backs early on than Elway had, but none of them could stay on the field to make that much of a difference most of the time. Second, Elway and lots of other QBs have had plenty of success between the ages of 35 & 40, so McNabb's career isn't over. With a back like AP (or AD, whichever you prefer) and the Vikes return to the form they showed on defense a couple years ago, who knows, he just might have a ring in him.

Someone said McNabb's a system QB. I have to debate this. If anything, trying to fit a system hampered him a bit. Over the years, he's really changed his game and forced himself to play more from the pocket. Look at his rushing stats again. His first 5 years he was up around 70-80 rushes almost every year. Ever since he's been down in the 30s most seasons. And its not like he got old, he was 28 starting that 6th year. Still, he made so many great plays off of improvisation.

Statistically, I think he's borderline but all those trips to the NFC Championship game put him over the top for me. I can see the case for leaving him out, but to say he's a flat-out no with no chance doesn't make sense to me. [/rant]

For argument's sake, let's say this is his last season and he essentially does nothing. If so, the case to watch to see how McNabb might be treated by HOF committee is Steve McNair. From a statistical and successful standpoint they're very similar.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

I think McNair is getting in, which will be a travesty, because he's not even as good as McNabb and was largely an average player. But the media (particularly the goofs at ESPN, namely Berman & Tom Jackson) LOVED Steve McNair like no other player of his era.

McNair exceeded 20 TD's three times. His teams had winning records four times in thirteen seasons, which is abysmal when you think about it. He was never even close to being the best QB in the league, and most years he was way outside the top ten. The Titans routinely performed just as well (and most times better) on offense when he was hurt and people like Neil O'Donnell and Billy Volek stepped in. Volek, in particular, would light in up replacing McNair, and McNair would inexplicably get his job back ever time he returned from injury.

I will never, ever understand the facination with Steve McNair.

 

[Diivox]

I don't get the "whiny ass" comment. He was classy as hell about the Rush Limbaugh and TO crap, never commenting. Hell, same thing for Shanahan. Shanahan called him out of shape and McNabb never made a public comment.

How is he a whiny ass?

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/02/02/donovan-mcnabb-hasnt-heard-from-the-redskins/

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/01/08/mcnabbs-agent-mike-shanahan-hope-to-meet-soon/

If you want to discredit the first two links as an agent doing his job, go here:

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/12/28/donovan-mcnabb-stands-by-agents-statement/

where he openly supports his agents criticism.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/12/26/mcnabb-seeks-release-from-redskins/

probably rubber stamped by McNabb.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/12/23/donovan-mcnabbs-agent-takes-aim-at-kyle-shanahan/

probably rubber stamped too. pretty piss poor agent, to the point of not even being certified by the NFLPA if he doesnt approve the comments.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.co...els-disrespected-wants-to-stay-with-redskins/

blatant, open disrespect for the Shannahans.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.co...mcnabb-very-disappointed-i-strongly-disagree/

more blatant, open disrespect for the Shannahans.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/12/17/mcnabbs-agent-tees-off-on-benching/

more "my agent said it" bitching.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.co...nabb-my-work-ethic-has-never-been-a-question/

yet more bitching.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/10/03/donovan-mcnabb-gets-the-last-word/

Eagles bitching.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/09/29/upset-about-trade-mcnabb-moves-on/

more eagles bitching.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.co...eagles-revisits-overtime-gaffe-denies-puking/

yet more eagles bitching.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.co...b-philadelphia-got-spoiled-by-eagles-success/

even yet more eagles bitching.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/06/30/donovan-mcnabb-i-was-loved-in-philadelphia/

yet even more eagles bitching. i've been beating a dead horse for a while now. still. because you are THAT wrong.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/04/06/mcnabb-on-philly-departure-i-guess-im-too-old/

heres his bitching on the way out.

My girlfriend is out the shower now and it's blu-ray time, so I'm not gonna ride any harder on this. I know I could keep clicking next for TO and limbaugh stuff if i really wanted to, cuz i read it all when it happened.

I could keep digging through the PFT archives, but I think i've hammered this point deeper than a motherfucker. McNabb bitches on a regular basis, and that's just with the redskins thing. I don't need more ammo here, but if you still aren't convinced, google "mcnabb financial apology". he has bitched his his entire career.

The real question is:

how do you miss this shit Dave, as a member of the fucking press? You, of all people on this forum, should have a deep understanding of how much of a crybaby he has been.

 

[Shayn•Da•Pain]

I think McNair is getting in, which will be a travesty, because he's not even as good as McNabb and was largely an average player. But the media (particularly the goofs at ESPN, namely Berman & Tom Jackson) LOVED Steve McNair like no other player of his era.

McNair exceeded 20 TD's three times. His teams had winning records four times in thirteen seasons, which is abysmal when you think about it. He was never even close to being the best QB in the league, and most years he was way outside the top ten. The Titans routinely performed just as well (and most times better) on offense when he was hurt and people like Neil O'Donnell and Billy Volek stepped in. Volek, in particular, would light in up replacing McNair, and McNair would inexplicably get his job back ever time he returned from injury.

I will never, ever understand the facination with Steve McNair.

Racist.

I keed I keed.

But seriously, you're right about McNair. I mean he did have that one co-MVP season, which he shared with Manning who had had 1,000 more passing yards and a petting winning record. Personally I think the voting was rigged.

He never threw for 4000 yards or led the league in anything. Part of that is because of a more legit knock on him - he missed games due to injury almost every season. In 2004 through '06 and again in '09 & '10, he was on pace to go over 4K yds but didn't play a full season. 8 times he finished top 10 in passing yards/game. By comparison, John Elway did it 9 times and 3 of those came at age 35 or older. McNabb will be 35 in November. 5 times McNabb has finished among top 10 in passer rating. Elway's done it 5 times, again a couple of those very late in his career.

You really can't compare Elway to McNabb, the rules have changed to significantly help the passing game in the NFL. While average Joe QB's are now throwing for 4,000 passing yards, McNabb hasn't. You just can't compare players from different eras with players of today, it's never a fair argument.

Let's compare McNabb with his peers. Brady & Manning are both guaranteed HOF'ers, wouldn't you agree? You'll have to prove McNabb belongs in the same conversation as these two guys.

Super Bowl Wins
Brady: 3
Manning: 1
McNabb: 0
This is a big deal in HOF voting. McNabb will have no help here, and I doubt he'll take the 5-10 Vikings to win one anytime soon.

Proof of Tier 1 and HOF worth through statistical achievement
Brady: Set the record for most TDs in a season, lead the nfl in touchdowns twice, passing yards twice, rating once, comp % once. Three 4,000 yard passing seasons.
Manning: Set the record for most TDs in a season(until brady broke it) Lead the NFL in TDs three times, rating three times, passing yardage twice, compltion percentage once. Three strait 100+ QB rating seasons. Eleven 4,000 yard seasons, including six strait 4,000 yard seasons, and another 5 strait 4,000 yard seasons.
McNabb: nothing...Has never lead the NFL in any major stat category.

On top of it all, it's been proven McNabb choked often, including in most of his NFC championship games.

Someone said McNabb's a system QB. I have to debate this. If anything, trying to fit a system hampered him a bit. Over the years, he's really changed his game and forced himself to play more from the pocket. Look at his rushing stats again. His first 5 years he was up around 70-80 rushes almost every year. Ever since he's been down in the 30s most seasons. And its not like he got old, he was 28 starting that 6th year. Still, he made so many great plays off of improvisation.

I agree he's not a system QB, but this is a knock against him as well, can't you see that? If he didn't pull that ball down and run with it, he might have spent a lot less time injured, and a lot more time puting up real numbers. Vick came in and enjoyed the system McNabb left behind, though he has the same problem with being a scrambling QB running into injuries. In fact just about every QB that's stepped in to replace the injured McNabb, had some success.. Except for Detmer and McMahon, who were obviously both hot garbage in or out of any system. The point is, it's never a good thing when your QB missing games because he's running too often. As McNabb ages, he's getting less and less capable of scrambling well, and more and more likely to face injuries because of it. But he's still not able to lean on an accurate arm, because he just doesn't have that.

But lets look at the system shall we.
In 2002, AJ Feely came in to replace an injured McNabb and went 5-1, while McNabb was 7-3 on the year. McNabb went on to have a 53.0 rating in the NFC Championship, and lose the game 10-27 after throwing a late 4th quarter INT to Ronde Barber who took it back 92 yards for the touchdown.

In '05 the defense just wasn't the same, McMahon sucks balls, and the team just couldn't weather the storm when McNabb got hurt.

In '06 Jeff Garcia, who's the definitive west coast system passer, stepped in for an injured McNabb. The Eagles defense still wasn't right, but Garcia proved that the team could win without McNabb. He went 5-1, when McNabb was 5-5 before he got hurt. Garcia had 10 TDs and only 2 INTs, compared to McNabbs 18 to 6.

In '09 when Kolb got to start 2 games, he had 391 yard and 327 yard games, 4 tds, 3 ints and 60.8% & 70.6% completion. Lights out, and I think Kolb isn't that great TBH.

Fast forward to last year and the Eagles did just fine without McNabb. More proof he wasn't HOF caliber, at least he wasn't by the time they sent him packing.

Statistically, I think he's borderline but all those trips to the NFC Championship game put him over the top for me. I can see the case for leaving him out, but to say he's a flat-out no with no chance doesn't make sense to me. [/rant]

For argument's sake, let's say this is his last season and he essentially does nothing. If so, the case to watch to see how McNabb might be treated by HOF committee is Steve McNair. From a statistical and successful standpoint they're very similar.

He went to the NFC Championship 4 years in a row when the NFC really wasn't that strong! The best teams at this time were in the AFC. I mean his competition was garbage for the most part, and he had the best defense in the NFC to boot. He didn't have to be that special to get there. But the most damning evidence was his piss poor NFC Championship performances. He had only 1 good game in the NFC Chmp game. Flat-out, he couldn't win the big game.

For argument's sake, the only chance he has of making the HOF IMO is to win a Super Bowl. He's not going go to Minnesota and lead the NFL in any statistical category.

Unless you win a Super Bowl, you have to prove to be the best, QB in some significant way, typically through statistical achievement, and he's never done that. In fact he's almost always hovering in the top 6-10 range in all statistical categories.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

Racist.

I keed I keed.

But seriously, you're right about McNair. I mean he did have that one co-MVP season, which he shared with Manning who had had 1,000 more passing yards and a petting winning record. Personally I think the voting was rigged.

That co-MVP was the biggest crock of shit ever.

Manning had better numbers across the board. Manning beat McNair head to head twice. And Manning's team won the division over McNair's team.

This is a perfect example of the media gushing over McNair. They waited years until he finally had good enough statistics so that they could justify an MVP for him. Manning sharing that award was a travesty.

 

[Diivox]

McNair is a different thread, but that's a hell of an interesting discussion if we really want to get into it. Shayn, that's the type of post VSN or VSD or whatever the fuck we're called right now needs if we are ever going to come back as a serious sports forum. I just wanted to say real quick that I appreciate that type of logical, thorough reply, and I agree with you completely on McNair.

in fact, please, someone start a McNair HOF argument (in either direction) so I can dive into this after I get home on Sunday. too much shit happening tomorrow for me to get google on this bitch, but I think McNair was one of the most overrated quarterbacks of all time. The press was in love with his toughness to the point that there were counter-articles everywhere that had "anonymous" quotes of other dudes being like "we ALL play through injuries, fuck ESPN." McNair got his co-MVP on press alone, and if anything, he deserved it for the previous season, not the one h got it in. and he's still way more of a lock for the HOF than McNabb is at this point.

When a presidential candidate (Al Gore, during his DNC acceptance speech, said, "unlike the Titans, WE WILL NOT COME A YARD SHORT!) refers to you, you probably get into the HOF. doesnt mean he deserved it. but it does mean that McNabb couldnt hold McNair's jock for Hall candidacy minus the ring...

 

[mcstl25]

If he retired now, no chance. If he gets a ring, which is highly unlikely, maybe.

 

[Rayman]

Perfect example of the "Hall of Very Good".

Hell no, should Donovan McNabb be in the Hall of Fame.

 

[ThomasTomasz]

Perfect example of the "Hall of Very Good".

Hell no, should Donovan McNabb be in the Hall of Fame.

Agreed......if they had won the Super Bowl back in 2004, this thread would probably be going in a different direction.

 

[bucky]

I hate all the McNabb hate.
25-26 NFL teams would have killed for a QB with his W-L during his Philadelphia run.
I am not saying he is the best QB of his generation or anything, but the amount of hate this guy gets is unbelieveable.

Saying he isn't HOF worthy isn't hate Dave.

 

[ThomasTomasz]

McNair is a different thread, but that's a hell of an interesting discussion if we really want to get into it. Shayn, that's the type of post VSN or VSD or whatever the fuck we're called right now needs if we are ever going to come back as a serious sports forum. I just wanted to say real quick that I appreciate that type of logical, thorough reply, and I agree with you completely on McNair.

in fact, please, someone start a McNair HOF argument (in either direction) so I can dive into this after I get home on Sunday. too much shit happening tomorrow for me to get google on this bitch, but I think McNair was one of the most overrated quarterbacks of all time. The press was in love with his toughness to the point that there were counter-articles everywhere that had "anonymous" quotes of other dudes being like "we ALL play through injuries, fuck ESPN." McNair got his co-MVP on press alone, and if anything, he deserved it for the previous season, not the one h got it in. and he's still way more of a lock for the HOF than McNabb is at this point.

When a presidential candidate (Al Gore, during his DNC acceptance speech, said, "unlike the Titans, WE WILL NOT COME A YARD SHORT!) refers to you, you probably get into the HOF. doesnt mean he deserved it. but it does mean that McNabb couldnt hold McNair's jock for Hall candidacy minus the ring...

82.8 career passer rating, never had a season where he broke into the top 10 in yardage thrown, and that was just a quick look on his Pro-Football Reference page. Also, he retired at age 34, and I bet part of that was his playing through injuries.

The Titans had a good team while he was there. Great running attack and a great defense. No one will deny that McNair is probably one of the toughest to take the field, but no way is he close to being a HOF player.

I will say this about quarterbacks who do not win a Super Bowl. You need to put up crazy numbers, like Dan Marino or Jim Kelly. Even take Kelly and compare him to McNair. Kelly played fewer seasons than McNair, and still beat him in passing yards and TDs. Two stats I know, but McNair did not blow anyone away as a passer.

 

[dell71]

Racist.
You really can't compare Elway to McNabb, the rules have changed to significantly help the passing game in the NFL. While average Joe QB's are now throwing for 4,000 passing yards, McNabb hasn't. You just can't compare players from different eras with players of today, it's never a fair argument.

I'm fully aware of how the game has changed. This is why I didn't compare their raw stats directly. I compared how Elway performed against his peers to how McNabb compares to his. To do this I basically looked at top 10 finishes in major categories. They are very similar. Elway led the league in something only once, yards. Other than that there's not much difference between how they rank against other qb's of their era from a statistical standpoint. The non-stat difference being early-Elway has "The Drive" and "The Drive II" and of course late-Elway has 2 rings.

Let's compare McNabb with his peers. Brady & Manning are both guaranteed HOF'ers, wouldn't you agree? You'll have to prove McNabb belongs in the same conversation as these two guys.

Super Bowl Wins
Brady: 3
Manning: 1
McNabb: 0
This is a big deal in HOF voting. McNabb will have no help here, and I doubt he'll take the 5-10 Vikings to win one anytime soon.

Proof of Tier 1 and HOF worth through statistical achievement
Brady: Set the record for most TDs in a season, lead the nfl in touchdowns twice, passing yards twice, rating once, comp % once. Three 4,000 yard passing seasons.
Manning: Set the record for most TDs in a season(until brady broke it) Lead the NFL in TDs three times, rating three times, passing yardage twice, compltion percentage once. Three strait 100+ QB rating seasons. Eleven 4,000 yard seasons, including six strait 4,000 yard seasons, and another 5 strait 4,000 yard seasons.
McNabb: nothing...Has never lead the NFL in any major stat category.

On top of it all, it's been proven McNabb choked often, including in most of his NFC championship games.

I wouldn't say he's in their class. That still doesn't mean he definitely can't make it, though.

I agree he's not a system QB, but this is a knock against him as well, can't you see that? If he didn't pull that ball down and run with it, he might have spent a lot less time injured, and a lot more time puting up real numbers. Vick came in and enjoyed the system McNabb left behind, though he has the same problem with being a scrambling QB running into injuries. In fact just about every QB that's stepped in to replace the injured McNabb, had some success.. Except for Detmer and McMahon, who were obviously both hot garbage in or out of any system. The point is, it's never a good thing when your QB missing games because he's running too often. As McNabb ages, he's getting less and less capable of scrambling well, and more and more likely to face injuries because of it. But he's still not able to lean on an accurate arm, because he just doesn't have that.

But lets look at the system shall we.
In 2002, AJ Feely came in to replace an injured McNabb and went 5-1, while McNabb was 7-3 on the year. McNabb went on to have a 53.0 rating in the NFC Championship, and lose the game 10-27 after throwing a late 4th quarter INT to Ronde Barber who took it back 92 yards for the touchdown.

In '05 the defense just wasn't the same, McMahon sucks balls, and the team just couldn't weather the storm when McNabb got hurt.

In '06 Jeff Garcia, who's the definitive west coast system passer, stepped in for an injured McNabb. The Eagles defense still wasn't right, but Garcia proved that the team could win without McNabb. He went 5-1, when McNabb was 5-5 before he got hurt. Garcia had 10 TDs and only 2 INTs, compared to McNabbs 18 to 6.

In '09 when Kolb got to start 2 games, he had 391 yard and 327 yard games, 4 tds, 3 ints and 60.8% & 70.6% completion. Lights out, and I think Kolb isn't that great TBH.

Fast forward to last year and the Eagles did just fine without McNabb. More proof he wasn't HOF caliber, at least he wasn't by the time they sent him packing.

Sure, a ton of injuries are definitely a knock on McNabb, no question. Whether being a system qb is a knock on him, maybe or maybe not. I've heard too often how qb "x" isn't that good because he's just a system qb. So apparently it can go either way.

Still, I can't automatically count it as a knock against him that someone else played well when he was out. We don't say Brady is any less of a qb because Matt Cassel went 11-5 the year he missed. We're not downgrading what Roethlisberger did last season because Dennis Dixon went 2-0. And knocking McNabb for what the Eagles did last year is absurd since he wasn't even on the roster.

He went to the NFC Championship 4 years in a row when the NFC really wasn't that strong! The best teams at this time were in the AFC. I mean his competition was garbage for the most part, and he had the best defense in the NFC to boot. He didn't have to be that special to get there. But the most damning evidence was his piss poor NFC Championship performances. He had only 1 good game in the NFC Chmp game. Flat-out, he couldn't win the big game.

Again, going back to Elway - he took 2 teams to the SB when the AFC was very weak. Year in, year out for over a decade the best teams were all in the NFC. If you want to knock him for how he did in the NFCC I'm fine with that. I never said McNabb's a slam dunk lock to get in. I just don't think he's a slam the door on him, no way in hell he gets in case, either.

 

[Aso]

McNabb was the first QB in NFL history to throw more than 30 TD's with less than 10 INT's in one season back in '04. Boom! Put that on his resume.

 

[Saluki]

Think of it like this. Right now if he retired today, no he wouldn't get in, but he still has time to play.

John Elway didn't stamp is for sure HOF ticket till the last two years of his career, he was a guy that would have gotten in eventually prob, but doubtful he would have been a first ballot HOF without the rings at the end.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

Think of it like this. Right now if he retired today, no he wouldn't get in, but he still has time to play.

John Elway didn't stamp is for sure HOF ticket till the last two years of his career, he was a guy that would have gotten in eventually prob, but doubtful he would have been a first ballot HOF without the rings at the end.

But McNabb sucks now. He's finished. He will lose the Vikings job by Thanksgiving.