Enough is enough. Peyton Manning is the greatest QB of all time.

[LiquidLarry2GhostWF]

It's all context.

In all three SB's he played in, Kurt Warner stuck the ball in the end zone (no hokey FG's) to take the lead or tie on his final possession, then stood on the sideline and watched his legacy determined by what the other QB did because he never got the ball back. That makes absolutely no sense, but that's how some people judge these things because they are too lazy to think a little deeper.

Warner went 1-2 in the SB, and I would think no differently of him had he went 2-1 or 3-0. Nothing about his performance would have changed had Big Ben overthrown Santonio Holmes by 2 inches or Holmes didn't drag his toe in bounds. Either way he never gets back on the field. He did his job in all three games "in the clutch" on his final drives. Warner is one of the best postseason & Super Bowl QB's ever, regardless of those outcomes.

I don't even know what i'm ranting about. Context, is what i'm getting at.

I've stated numerous times that I believe Warner is a Hall of Fame quarterback...what in da hell you talkin bout? He was a great playoff QB. One of the best.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

I've stated numerous times that I believe Warner is a Hall of Fame quarterback...what in da hell you talkin bout? He was a great playoff QB. One of the best.

Not a direct argument towards you. An example of context, which you clearly understand. Read through this behemoth. Listen to talking heads. Others don't.

 

[LiquidLarry2GhostWF]

In the case of Manning, his other worldy regular season performance, combined with his 5 MVP's, combined with the fact that he has one SB ring and another SB appearance already in the bag, combined with the Atlas EYE TEST, all of these things, to me, put him ahead of Montana and everybody else.

I get the Montana argument and won't fight too hard. I really don't buy an argument for anybody else. Manning is inhuman. I'm not going to downgrade him for "only" one SB win & two SB's in an era of parity where #6 seeds cut through three road games like a knife through butter on a consistent basis. The playoffs are a crapshoot more that ever.

The great regular season performance puts him in the Marino category. His one Super Bowl takes him out of it...but his career playoff numbers are pretty weak, even when you compare him to his contemporaries.

Manning's ascension to the top is still happening, so its not impossible he gets there, IMO, but he still has some things to do to get there, IMO.

 

[Len B]

In today's game its never been easier for a QB to carry a team to victory. There are no dominant defenses to face off against and nearly every game comes down to which QB is the 'hottest' and makes the least mistakes. If anything the last few years have made it more dependent on SBs to determine who's better and made it much easier to compare peers. If either want to be goat they can't afford to be outgunned by guys named Flacco and Eli.
If we start giving credit for Championship game and SB losses Jim Kelly is gonna throw a parade.

You just contradicted your own point. It's the easiest ever to carry a team to victory as a QB, yet the Super Bowl champions since 2000 include:

-Joe Flacco
-Eli Manning twice
-Ben Roethlisberger twice
-Trent Dilfer
-Brad Johnson

7 of the past 13 SB winners are QB's who are not regarded as a Top 5 option. It is harder to win a SB now as an elite passer than it has ever been before. Playoffs come down to defense, hot streaks and luck, you can't just throw your way to titles no matter what you think about regular season statistics. There's a reason the refs hide the flags come post season and why the elite passers aren't routinely winning titles.

Should we also forget that we are in free agency now with huge roster turnover? Or are we just going to pretend Montana/Aikman/etc. built dynasties on their own talents?

What Manning and Brady have done for a decade is the single greatest achievement(s) in QB history. Different players recycled every year, yet they are always at the top.

 

[MVPete]

In the case of Manning, his other worldy regular season performance, combined with his 5 MVP's, combined with the fact that he has one SB ring and another SB appearance already in the bag, combined with the Atlas EYE TEST, all of these things, to me, put him ahead of Montana and everybody else.

I get the Montana argument and won't fight too hard. I really don't buy an argument for anybody else. Manning is inhuman. I'm not going to downgrade him for "only" one SB win & two SB's in an era of parity where #6 seeds cut through three road games like a knife through butter on a consistent basis. The playoffs are a crapshoot more that ever.

 

[Houston]

The rings argument is the easiest to deconstruct, not sure why people keep clinging on to it.

In the case of Manning, his other worldy regular season performance...combined with his 5 MVP's

Also has the most Pro-bowl appearances.

These are titles/accomplishes that you get from consistent definitive play. You get them only from your play on the field. Rings can be won or lost from the bench. Even if you do wanna bring the ring argument into play, it has to take a backseat to the other ones because it's the least indicator of the quality of a QB. It's the reason why there's no Terry Bradshawfor MVP, Probowl, or stats, but one for the rings argument.

It makes for a fun and spirited debate, but at the end of the day it's dead for now. What you're witnessing now is the denial stage of grief.

 

[Glenbino]

It's all context.

In all three SB's he played in, Kurt Warner stuck the ball in the end zone (no hokey FG's) to take the lead or tie on his final possession, then stood on the sideline and watched his legacy determined by what the other QB did because he never got the ball back. That makes absolutely no sense, but that's how some people judge these things because they are too lazy to think a little deeper.

Warner went 1-2 in the SB, and I would think no differently of him had he went 2-1 or 3-0. Nothing about his performance would have changed had Big Ben overthrown Santonio Holmes by 2 inches or Holmes didn't drag his toe in bounds. Either way he never gets back on the field. He did his job in all three games "in the clutch" on his final drives. Warner is one of the best postseason & Super Bowl QB's ever, regardless of those outcomes.

I don't even know what i'm ranting about. Context, is what i'm getting at.

This is why I always get mad for people pointing to Elway's SB losses... He could have thrown for 300 yards and 3 TDs and STILL lose to Washington and San Francisco by 20+.

Sent from my HTC6500LVW using Tapatalk

 

[JeremyHight]

Also has the most Pro-bowl appearances.

Why was this even brought up? Why not bring up how many times each person was voted sexiest male athlete at the teen choice awards? They mean about as much.

 

[KINGOFOOTBALL]

You just contradicted your own point. It's the easiest ever to carry a team to victory as a QB, yet the Super Bowl champions since 2000 include:

-Joe Flacco
-Eli Manning twice
-Ben Roethlisberger twice
-Trent Dilfer
-Brad Johnson

7 of the past 13 SB winners are QB's who are not regarded as a Top 5 option. It is harder to win a SB now as an elite passer than it has ever been before. Playoffs come down to defense, hot streaks and luck, you can't just throw your way to titles no matter what you think about regular season statistics. There's a reason the refs hide the flags come post season and why the elite passers aren't routinely winning titles.

Should we also forget that we are in free agency now with huge roster turnover? Or are we just going to pretend Montana/Aikman/etc. built dynasties on their own talents?

What Manning and Brady have done for a decade is the single greatest achievement(s) in QB history. Different players recycled every year, yet they are always at the top.

Rule changes didn't come into effect until 2004 (5?) nullifying your point. Warner carried an otherwise abysmal team to a SB on arm alone , every SB won since rule change has been with a QB slinging it lone exception I can recall is Pitt/Sea.
Hotter QB wins nearly every time. Manning and Brady got outperformed in the SB losses plain and simple. Brady can put up 38 on the NYG a month earlier can only put up 14 in the SB ?
Brees has one , Rodgers has one , P.Manning has one Big Ben has two. Brady and Warner combined for 3 visits. Don't give me this nonsense about inferior QBs winning SBs. The top QBs in the league last few years have all made trips or won. Big Ben tossed for over 70% and had an all time drive in that SB vs Warner. Eli had one of the most insane escapes in NFL history. Manning threw his away while Brees was chasing a perfect game.
Sorry, in this no defense era if you're not winning SBs it's probably because you're being outperformed by the other QB. Manning and Brady had every opportunity to win 3 SBs the last few years but didnt.
I'm supposed to give them bonus points and kudos over a guy who ACTUALLY won those games against better competition ?
I'm already elevating there status past other guys. I'm not going to throw objectivity out the window because he's "my guy" or to force the recent guy into a spot he hasn't earned. When guys are this close you're going to have to draw the line somewhere. Tossing a game ending pick in a SB will always mean more than 7 TD's in a regular season game. Otherwise let's throw in preseason and pro bowl skill competitions into the mix.

 

[LiquidLarry2GhostWF]

You just contradicted your own point. It's the easiest ever to carry a team to victory as a QB, yet the Super Bowl champions since 2000 include:

-Joe Flacco
-Eli Manning twice
-Ben Roethlisberger twice
-Trent Dilfer
-Brad Johnson

7 of the past 13 SB winners are QB's who are not regarded as a Top 5 option. It is harder to win a SB now as an elite passer than it has ever been before. Playoffs come down to defense, hot streaks and luck, you can't just throw your way to titles no matter what you think about regular season statistics. There's a reason the refs hide the flags come post season and why the elite passers aren't routinely winning titles.

Should we also forget that we are in free agency now with huge roster turnover? Or are we just going to pretend Montana/Aikman/etc. built dynasties on their own talents?

What Manning and Brady have done for a decade is the single greatest achievement(s) in QB history. Different players recycled every year, yet they are always at the top.

Eli Manning and Ben Roethlisberger are future Hall of Famers.

:kanye:

Joe Flacco just had the greatest run in playoff history...breaking some of Joe Montana's records. It took a Hall of Fame performance for the Ravens to win the Super Bowl.

The other two guys shouldn't even be in this discussion...they also had two historically great defenses.

Manning and Brady are awesome...but the NFL has never had this many great QBs at once. What you are seeing is ALL of the good quarterbacks are getting their shine and a chance to win a Super Bowl. This is like the early 90's where its Aikman/Montana/Young/Kelly/Marino/Elway (all Hall of Famers, go figure) essentially at the top of the league and most of them win a Super Bowl...now you have Peyton/Brady/Brees/Rodgers/Big Ben/Eli/Flacco all winning Super Bowls...they also happen to be the eight best quarterbacks of the past decade.

more :kanye:

 

[KINGOFOOTBALL]

This is why I always get mad for people pointing to Elway's SB losses... He could have thrown for 300 yards and 3 TDs and STILL lose to Washington and San Francisco by 20+.

Sent from my HTC6500LVW using Tapatalk

Lulz?
He "could have" thrown for 3 TD's but what he did instead was throw 5 interceptions ,post historically bad QB ratings in the teens and twenties.
Yeah just a coincedence and weird happenstance he lost those games.

 

[ram29jackson]

Eli Manning and Ben Roethlisberger are future Hall of Famers.

:kanye:

Joe Flacco just had the greatest run in playoff history...breaking some of Joe Montana's records. It took a Hall of Fame performance for the Ravens to win the Super Bowl.

The other two guys shouldn't even be in this discussion...they also had two historically great defenses.

Manning and Brady are awesome...but the NFL has never had this many great QBs at once.

not great...just statistically good looking due to rules changes

 

[Houston]

Why was this even brought up? Why not bring up how many times each person was voted sexiest male athlete at the teen choice awards? They mean about as much.

 

[LiquidLarry2GhostWF]

not great...just statistically good looking due to rules changes

It has nothing to do with rule changes...they all have great numbers in comparison to their contemporaries in the era they are in. I'm not comparing them to Aikman or Otto Graham...I'm comparing them to their peers.

Usually, the league has been top heavy at QB. You always have a few great QBs...but what makes the NFL so ridiculous in regards to QB talent in 2013 is the depth at the position...beyond those "Elite 8" guys...you have young guys waiting in the wings like Luck (he's already a top QB in my book, its just a matter of when, not if he starts getting the hardware...he is too good), Wilson, Kaepernick...you also have tier two QBs that are really fucking good like Rivers, Newton, and Stafford...hell, even guys like Romo, in most eras, look great by comparison, but in a league with so many awesome QBs, he's merely average.

There is a reason why teams desperately need QBs...because there are so many good ones, if you don't have one of them, you are behind the 8-ball.

 

[Shayn•Da•Pain]

It's all context.

In all three SB's he played in, Kurt Warner stuck the ball in the end zone (no hokey FG's) to take the lead or tie on his final possession, then stood on the sideline and watched his legacy determined by what the other QB did because he never got the ball back. That makes absolutely no sense, but that's how some people judge these things because they are too lazy to think a little deeper.

Warner went 1-2 in the SB, and I would think no differently of him had he went 2-1 or 3-0. Nothing about his performance would have changed had Big Ben overthrown Santonio Holmes by 2 inches or Holmes didn't drag his toe in bounds. Either way he never gets back on the field. He did his job in all three games "in the clutch" on his final drives. Warner is one of the best postseason & Super Bowl QB's ever, regardless of those outcomes.

I don't even know what i'm ranting about. Context, is what i'm getting at.

You want context? lol At the end of the half, that walk off 101 yard INT return for a TD Warner threw certainly didn't help them win the game either. That was a 14 pt swing on one play lol

And throwing his last TD to take the lead, and giving Big Ben over 2 minutes to drive 70 yards, stupid. Just a stupid stupid play.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

And throwing his last TD to take the lead, and giving Big Ben over 2 minutes to drive 70 yards, stupid. Just a stupid stupid play.

Wait, what?...throwing a TD pass to give his team the lead was a "stupid play"?

 

[Houston]

That was a 14 pt swing on one play lol

That's exactly the point.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

Eli Manning and Ben Roethlisberger are future Hall of Famers.

:kanye:

stop.

sidenote - I wouldn't vote for Big Ben, either. But I wouldn't gripe if someone did. Anybody who votes Eli for the HOF should have their vote taken away.

 

[Maynard]

why not? he has won 2 SB and has put up some monster stats. sure, he has had ome down years but so did your boy kurt warner and he is a HOF imo

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

why not? he has won 2 SB and has put up some monster stats. sure, he has had ome down years but so did your boy kurt warner and he is a HOF imo

I don't care about winning the two SB's, the entire theme here is that I think Super Bowl performance is overrated.

LOL @ monster stats.

Eli Manning has a lower career QB rating (81.2) than Jason Campbell, Jake Delhomme, Shaun Hill, David Garrard, Matt Schaub, and a bunch of other guys who will never sniff the HOF, and many of whom could not hold starting jobs.

Manning's adjusted statistics show that he is basically an average QB compared to his peers:

Yard per Attempt: 101
Comp%: 93
QB Rating: 97

So where are these "monster" stats? He's 1% better than average against his peers in YPA, and worse than average in two other key areas. He also sports one of the highest INT%'s of his era. You could actually make a case that overall his stats are below average compared to his peers. He's Exhibit A of inflated numbers that are really unimpressive when stacked against his own era.

He has never led the league in anything aside from interceptions (three times). He's no better than someone like Jay Cutler, and significantly worse than Philip Rivers. Are you putting them in the HOF? Of course not.

He's never been considered the best QB in the league, never top 3, never top 5, and usually borderline top 10.

What on his resume suggests he's a HOF aside from the derpy TWO RINGZ argument? There is nothing there. He's average in every way.

I won't even address the Kurt Warner comparison that you keep making, because it's not even worth my time and shows how clueless you are.