Hall of Fame, Who would you vote for?

[Goober]

Obviously no, that's a gigantic blanket.

Some guys who didnt use will get the shaft because of the guys who we know did.

I'm more in line with the thinking that if a guy was a known user (positive test, self admitted, name part of any of the reports that were leaked, etc.), doesn't get a vote, guys like Palmeiro, Bonds, McGwire, whoever else. For guys who were never part of that (no matter hearsay such as back acne or whatever the fuck), guys like Walker, Bagwell, Edgar Martinez, then go right ahead.

It's ridiculous to think the baseball HOF should be without such major names as Bonds, ARod, McGwire, etc. They could also put a denotion next to the name/marker/whateverthefuck to denote they were an admitted user.

I guess it's just plain easier to say it was part of the game for however long and move on with it already.

Know what, at the end of the day, it's just a stupid museum. Put whoever in and just add it to their career description.

But, you only voted for Walker.

 

[NAHSTE]

Know what, at the end of the day, it's just a stupid museum. Put whoever in and just add it to their career description.

That is pretty much how I feel. Not like when I take my kid to Cooperstown in 20 years I can't just say "well son, that Barry Bonds guy hit so many home runs because he was a fucking cheater."

Put them in, they were part of the game. The fans are smart enough to contextualize their achievements.

As for Palmeiro and McGwire I don't think they have very strong cases to begin with so I won't vote for either. Bonds, ARod, Manny, etc. are no brainers to me though.

 

[mcstl25]

Larkin
McGwire.

Fire away.

 

[FirstTimer]

Larkin
McGwire.

Fire away.

:jonesy:

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

Larkin
McGwire.

Fire away.

Hard marker.

Reminds me of my dad, his HOF would have like 20 players in it.

"Bah, that Griffey is no Mantle!"

 

[LiquidLarry2GhostWF]

I am still debating on the steroid era of baseball.

Why?

"Back in the day" players not only used a form of steroids but they all took greenies. They had greenie-laced Gatorade in every club house right next to the regular Gatorade and water. That's some real talk. So, how can I leave out players that got busted for roids? The Hall is littered with players that took roids and would admit to anyone that they took greenies on the regular.

Definitely find myself leaning toward raising the moratorium on the steroid era players. My outrage is dwindling. But the first player I'd let in is Bonds. No roid user gets in before Bonds...might be my only caveat.

 

[G-men]

Walker is on the list

I know, but I didn't see him when I was voting in the poll, so I skipped over him.

 

[manchild24]

Palmeiro will never get my vote and I really dont think McGwire was much of a player until his HR run.

Larkin
Mattingly
Williams
Morris
Trammel
Salmon

 

[shag773]

Suprised Mattingly didn't get more votes. 9 gold gloves, .307 career BA? I know he tailed off his last few years but there weren't many hitters that were better than him in the 80's...

 

[NAHSTE]

Hard marker.

Reminds me of my dad, his HOF would have like 20 players in it.

"Bah, that Griffey is no Mantle!"

Ok but if you are a hardline guy, McGwire should be nowhere near your ballot. .265 career average? Brutal defense? Obvious juicing? If McGwire is in, Bagwell has got to be in because he was the superior all around 1B. There's no ifs, ands, or buts about that IMO.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

Suprised Mattingly didn't get more votes. 9 gold gloves, .307 career BA? I know he tailed off his last few years but there weren't many hitters that were better than him in the 80's...

I would love to endorse him, but he simply did not have enough HOF caliber seasons due to his back issues. But he was the best hitter in the game for 4 or 5 years, so I can't kill someone who would vote for him. I'd rather have peak Don Mattingly over a lot of Hall of Fame players.

Ok but if you are a hardline guy, McGwire should be nowhere near your ballot. .265 career average? Brutal defense? Obvious juicing? If McGwire is in, Bagwell has got to be in because he was the superior all around 1B. There's no ifs, ands, or buts about that IMO.

I'm with you, dude. Bagwell over McGwire all day, every day. It's like I said in the other thread, I think Bagwell is a top 5 all time 1B.

 

[Golden Taters]

Edgar Martinez, the best DH of all time.

 

[nflman2033]

I have for years endorsed Mattingly and Jack Morris when People usualy don't, I know the longevity wasn't there for Mattingly, but I look at him like a Gayle Sayers type player, he was so good when healthy its hard to keep him out in my mind.

and Jack Morris really gets shafted, a lot of people say his Postseason numbers are the only thing worthy of being mentioned. I have always looked at him as being a marginal guy and his postseason accolades put him over the hump. I mean he won 20 games 3 times, and lead the league in wins twice. 200k's 3 times lead the league twice. His ERA isn't that bad especially for the American League, his career numbers would have looked better if he hadn't hung around two seasons too long.

both of these guys to me are guys I put in because I was a huge fan of baseball in the 80's and they were top guys back then, its not like 70's guys that i can only look up stats, and not like 90's guys that I question because of the steroids era.

and its funny I loved Alan Trammell growing up, but I don't want to see him get in before Larkin.

 

[mcstl25]

Hard marker.

Reminds me of my dad, his HOF would have like 20 players in it.

"Bah, that Griffey is no Mantle!"

It's really not that all. It's just that the hall of fame ballot this year is very underwhelming. Guys like Raines and Trammell have been on the ballot for years, and the only reason why they are getting consideration now is because of the weak field.

As for what I think actually will happen. Bagwell will get in to the hall for sure at some point. Morris has a really good shot, too. Martinez and Walker both have a chance, but I think in the end they'll be on the outside looking in. Palmeiro will get in if they begin to let in players who have been caught using steroids.

I've already admitted in previous HOF discussions that McGwire is a homer pick. He was my favorite player growing up and what he and Sosa did in 1998 nearly single handedly brought baseball back from the damage caused by the strike. If others don't like it, I don't care. It's my make-believe ballot :smug:

 

[FirstTimer]

Guys like Raines and Trammell have been on the ballot for years, and the only reason why they are getting consideration now is because of the weak field.

Raines should have been in years ago. Writers constant retardation isn't an excuse for not putting a deserving guy in eventually.

Mattingly was close to making it onto my ballot but he just didn't have the longevity but nflman's Sayers argument is really valid.

 

[mcstl25]

Raines should have been in years ago. Writers constant retardation isn't an excuse for not putting a deserving guy in eventually.

Mattingly was close to making it onto my ballot but he just didn't have the longevity but nflman's Sayers argument is really valid.

I guess my issue with Raines is after having five or six hall of fame caliber seasons, he was very average. Growing up in the 90s, that's how I tend to remember him. I never remember watching Raines and thinking that he was even close to a HOF player, but that could be in part to not watching him play in the 80s. Mattingly had four incredible seasons, but boy did he every fall off in a hurry. Not sure which hurts a players HOF credentials more, having a bunch of average seasons or completely falling off the map after four to six great years.

 

[NAHSTE]

I guess my issue with Raines is after having five or six hall of fame caliber seasons, he was very average.

Yeah at some point we need to decide if peak or longevity is more important. I am more of a peak guy, but I understand that you have to at least maintain your form as a competent player for a long time to even be considered.

Are guys like Mattingly more deserving than someone like Palmeiro who played forever and compiled the appropriate milestones? Or someone like Andruw Jones who fell off a cliff at 30 ... does Johnny Damon seriously end up getting more votes than AJ? Because that'd suck some major titties.

 

[MvP]

Barry Larkin
Edgar Martinez
Mark McGwire

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

I guess my issue with Raines is after having five or six hall of fame caliber seasons, he was very average. Growing up in the 90s, that's how I tend to remember him. I never remember watching Raines and thinking that he was even close to a HOF player, but that could be in part to not watching him play in the 80s. Mattingly had four incredible seasons, but boy did he every fall off in a hurry. Not sure which hurts a players HOF credentials more, having a bunch of average seasons or completely falling off the map after four to six great years.

Yeah at some point we need to decide if peak or longevity is more important. I am more of a peak guy, but I understand that you have to at least maintain your form as a competent player for a long time to even be considered.

Are guys like Mattingly more deserving than someone like Palmeiro who played forever and compiled the appropriate milestones? Or someone like Andruw Jones who fell off a cliff at 30 ... does Johnny Damon seriously end up getting more votes than AJ? Because that'd suck some major titties.

In the case of Raines, he stuck around forever as a bench player, which makes the cursory year by year stat glance look worse than it is. I dont think being a pretty good bench player should help his case all that much, but it shouldn't hurt either, and there is something to be said for usefull longevity.

Combined with the fact he was a dominant player for almost a decade and the idea that you can count the number of leadoff men who were better than him on one hand (and maybe one finger), to me it's criminal when I look at his vote totals every year.

 

[dell71]

Bagwell
Larkin
Morris
Raines

What I posted about Larkin in my HOF thread:

For my money, Rock is the most underappreciated player on the ballot. Leadoff hitters are expected to be catalysts for your lineup. They’re expected to make things happen with the bat and on the base paths. Not only did Raines do this but as best I can tell he’s the second best leadoff hitter of all time. He compares favorably to Hall of Famer and leadoff man Lou Brock across the board. Raines has a higher batting average, OBP, SLG, OPS and OPS+. Especially for a leadoff hitter OBP is one of the most importants stats and it's where Raines really differentiates himself from Brock. Despite only a 1 point difference in batting average (Raines .294, Brock .293) there is a whopping 42 point discrepancy in OBP (Raines .385, Brock .343). In almost 1000 fewer plate appearances, Raines reached base more times, hit more homeruns, drove in more runs and only scored 31 fewer runs. The one area where it seems Brock has him beat is stolen bases. Brock is 2nd all-time with 938, Raines 5th with 808. Raines still comes out ahead there because he was successful on nearly 85% of his steals, best of anyone in the top 10 who played since they began keeping track of how many times players were caught stealing on a consistent basis (since 1912). Of course, this includes all-time steals leader and Raines' contemporary Rickey Henderson. At 75%, Brock is the lowest in the same group. What’s been keeping him out? Some is just plain ol’ undervaluing his accomplishments and some is backlash for admitted cocaine use. However, the latter didn’t keep Paul Molitor out of the Hall. By the way, playing in the same era as Molly, Raines also has a higher OBP and OPS+ despite a batting average of 12 points less. Raines is a case to watch, though. Support for him seems to be growing. He’s made significant jumps in the voting the last 2 years and should make another this year (37.5% last year). Look for him in the mid 40% range. He won’t get in this year, but if the trend continues he’ll really have a chance during the latter half of his HOF eligibility.