Hall of Fame, Who would you vote for?

[mcstl25]

For the record, I said this about 3-4 years ago on VSN and got ripped to shreds. Just wanna throw that out there. :marshmellow:

Right with you. I've been saying this since the HOF debates back in the MM days. People are finally starting to come around to realize that for a period of time most everyone was juicing. I put a player like Bagwell on the same level as McGwire, Palmeiro, and Bonds. The whole era is tainted. If you start putting in certain guys for not ever getting caught, then we may be rewarding them for being better cheaters who were able to slide under the radar.

 

[FedEx227]

My biggest gripe is that even if people weren't all juicing. It was still a major part of the game and by and large defined the era. We're smart enough at this point in our lives to say this Hall of Famer was caught using steroids during his life.

At some point you're going to elect someone who took them, whether they were caught or not, whatever but someone will get in that slipped through the cracks.

 

[FedEx227]

EXACTLY

My pet peeve.

Either you think he's a HOF or you don't. None of this "let's make him wait a year" shit. Drives me nuts.

Honestly, guys should be on the ballot one year and one year only.

Eligibility for the Hall of Fame shouldn't fluctuate year by year for a player that hasn't played in 10 years. It's mind boggling.

 

[nflman2033]

well its still better than the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame

 

[StealthShot]

Jeff Bagwell
Barry Larkin
Don Mattingly
Mark McGwire
Jack Morris
Bernie Williams

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

VSD is a little better at this than the BBWAA.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

Looks like dell's strong case even couldn't convince the masses on Tim Raines.

808 SB's!

9-time league leader in various categories

Hovered around .400 OBA during his prime (.385 career)

Rickey Henderson OPS/OPS+ - .820/127
Tim Raines OPS/OPS+ - .810/123

 

[dell71]

how can a yankees fan who is old enough to have watched baseball in the 80's like myself not put Don Mattingly in. Its like I said hes like a Gayle Sayers for baseball, sure his run was cut short by injury, but he was one of the best players in the game at his peak

I'm a bit of a hard grader, esp. when it comes to baseball's HOF and I really try to leave emotion out of it. After all, Mattingly is one of my fave players of all time. His peak years were great and I can't knock you for your Sayers argument. It's just not enough for me.

 

[Senser81]

Great thread.

I only voted for two guys...Larkin and Jack Morris. I think Larkin is a shoe-in because he's been passed over for so many years, and he was one of the top 9 shortstops in history. I think that has to hold some weight, because you can't say that about many players in MLB history. You can't really say Tim Raines was a top 9 OF/LF in MLB history.

I think history has shown how valuable Jack Morris was. People probably should appreciate him more now than they did back in the 1980s/1990s, because his durability and postseason success were rather unique. Its kinda like Don Sutton...people didn't think he was a HOF pitcher, but for many years he was the last pitcher to win 300 games in his career.

I am a guy who isn't against eventually voting in some of the steroid guys...but I'm in no hurry to enshrine them and perhaps it would help to hold off until all the "facts" come in. So that eliminates a lot of guys from my ballot right away.

As for the other guys, it seems like arguments can be made for several of them, and the arguments are kind of the same. If Don Mattingly gets a Gale Sayers exception, then what about Dale Murphy? If Tim Raines is noted for his longevity and career numbers in which the sum of its parts is greater than the whole (so to speak), then what about Lee Smith?

 

[Pills]

Bags, Larkin (Go Blue!) and Morris.

I'm older than most of you, and I saw Mattingly throughout his career. He's one of my favorite players of all time. He's not a HOFer. If his back didn't go in 1990, he'd practically be a shoe-in... but his back went. 6 great years does not a HOFer make.

And while I realize guys have made it on defense before, you have to be able to argue that you're one of the best ever (Ozzie Smith), or have plenty of friends on the Vets committee (Bill Mazerowski).

Larry Walker may eventually make it, but he's going to be hurt by the fact that he was in Colorado. Edgar Martinez will be an interesting case.

 

[nflman2033]

finally some Morris appreciation.

also like i said Mattingly = Gayle Sayers of baseball.. I think they old school Yankee fans here are afraid to look like homers on this one.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

Couldn't one argue that the difference between Sayers and Mattingly is that due to the physicality of football, you can kinda excuse a short, yet brilliant, career, while in baseball longevity is something that should be expected from an all time great?

I think a better angle for arguing in favor Mattingly would be to emphasize his superior defense, rivaled only by Keith Hernandez during his era. All time gloveman + a fantastic 6 year peak = HOF? I still say no, and honestly if he played for Seattle I doubt he's even still on the ballot.

I think Mattingly is hurt more by playing as long as he did after the injury. Had he retired after 8 seasons or something like that, the digital baseball card would look a lot cleaner without the 7 HR or .256 seasons.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

Pretty crazy that Mattingly played his first game the year after the last Yankees post season appearance, then played his last game the year before they won the WS.

 

[Senser81]

Couldn't one argue that the difference between Sayers and Mattingly is that due to the physicality of football, you can kinda excuse a short, yet brilliant, career, while in baseball longevity is something that should be expected from an all time great?

I think a better angle for arguing in favor Mattingly would be to emphasize his superior defense, rivaled only by Keith Hernandez during his era. All time gloveman + a fantastic 6 year peak = HOF? I still say no, and honestly if he played for Seattle I doubt he's even still on the ballot.

I think Mattingly is hurt more by playing as long as he did after the injury. Had he retired after 8 seasons or something like that, the digital baseball card would look a lot cleaner without the 7 HR or .256 seasons.

Lets stop the Sayers comparison. First, Sayers was a unique talent. There are some people who maintain that Sayers was the greatest RB in NFL history. Second, the NFL and the MLB HOFs are two different animals. The MLB HOF rewards people for longevity and stats...the NFL HOF rewards people for more intangible things like greatness and team accomplishments.

I think a better comparison to Mattingly would be Kirby Puckett...a guy whose career was cut short yet still made it to Cooperstown.

On a side note, what about a guy like Keith Hernandez or Steve Garvey?

 

[nflman2033]

Lets stop the Sayers comparison. First, Sayers was a unique talent. There are some people who maintain that Sayers was the greatest RB in NFL history. Second, the NFL and the MLB HOFs are two different animals. The MLB HOF rewards people for longevity and stats...the NFL HOF rewards people for more intangible things like greatness and team accomplishments.

I think a better comparison to Mattingly would be Kirby Puckett...a guy whose career was cut short yet still made it to Cooperstown.

On a side note, what about a guy like Keith Hernandez or Steve Garvey?

Ok then kirby puckett

 

[Senser81]

Ok then kirby puckett

One guy is a Hall of Famer, the other isn't.

Next?

 

:yao:

 

[jms493]

Keith Hernandez....this is what he is famous for.

 

[EmpireWF]

Keith Hernandez....this is what he is famous for.

:fuckyou:

 

[Youk]

Keith Hernandez....this is what he is famous for.

The Magic Loogie.

Hall of Fame worthy.

 

[Goober]

Player|VSN|BBWAA|Difference
Barry Larkin|94.6%|86.4%|8.2%
Jack Morris|29.7|66.7|-37%
Jeff Bagwell|67.6|56.0|11.6%
Lee Smith|8.1%|50.6%|-42.5%
Tim Raines|35.1%|48.7%|-13.6%
Alan Trammell|18.9|36.8|-17.9
Edgar Martinez|54.1|36.5|17.6
Fred McGriff|13.5|23.9|-10.4
Larry Walker|54.1%|22.9%|31.2%
Mark McGwire|27.0%|19.5%|7.5%
Don Mattingly|35.1%|17.8%|17.3%
Dale Murphy|5.4%|14.5%|-9.1%
Rafael Palmeiro|18.9%|12.6%|6.3%
Bernie Williams|18.9%|9.6%|9.3%

VSN loves Larry Walker, and hates Jack Morris and Lee Smith.