Hines Ward to Retire

[Senser81]

Elaborate.

I don't have the numbers in front of me, but when you have a backlog of guys like Cris Carter and Andre Reed still waiting to get into Canton, there aren't going to be enough election years for Hines Ward to get in. Ward's value was much more than just statistics, but in these times its stats that get you in to the Hall of Fame. I would guess that if you compare Ward's numbers and accolades to guys like Isaac Bruce and Rod Smith, Ward still would come up short.

 

[shag773]

Does his Super Rings > Carter's and Reed's career numbers? Not saying I think Ward is in the HOF, because who the fuck knows what's in these voters heads.

Does Irvin get in without his rings?

 

[RosettaStoned]

I don't have the numbers in front of me, but when you have a backlog of guys like Cris Carter and Andre Reed still waiting to get into Canton, there aren't going to be enough election years for Hines Ward to get in. Ward's value was much more than just statistics, but in these times its stats that get you in to the Hall of Fame. I would guess that if you compare Ward's numbers and accolades to guys like Isaac Bruce and Rod Smith, Ward still would come up short.

Just a quick browsing.. His numbers are comparable to Carter's in everything except TD's. Ward has 2 rings and a SB MVP to go along with his stats though.

 

[FirstTimer]

Just a quick browsing.. His numbers are comparable to Carter's in everything except TD's. Ward has 2 rings and a SB MVP to go along with his stats though.

While true, relative to how they were viewed Ward can't touch Carter. I can see Ward making it in eventually but I'd put in guys Like Carter and Reed well before I'd put Ward in.

 

[RosettaStoned]

While true, relative to how they were viewed Ward can't touch Carter.

I don't even know what that means? That's not even a substantial statement bro.

 

[Senser81]

I don't even know what that means? That's not even a substantial statement bro.

Carter was an 8-time pro bowler and a 2 time All-Pro, and that was in the tough NFC which was stockpiled with great WRs. Ward made the pro bowl a few times, and was never considered one of the top WRs in the game. If Ward's case is longevity and blocking, then Art Monk retired as the all-time leading WR and it still took Monk years to get into Canton because he was never really an elite WR. If Ward's case is SB rings, then Cliff Branch has a much stronger resume than Hines Ward.

I just don't see anything other than his SB MVP that screams out HOFer to me, and even the SB MVP argument is kind of a "cherry on top" than anything substantial.

But who knows, I've been wrong about guys in the past (Floyd Little, Dick LeBeau, etc).

 

[RosettaStoned]

Carter was an 8-time pro bowler and a 2 time All-Pro, and that was in the tough NFC which was stockpiled with great WRs. Ward made the pro bowl a few times, and was never considered one of the top WRs in the game.

Carter had a few years of playing with Randy Moss as well.

If Ward's case is longevity and blocking, then Art Monk retired as the all-time leading WR and it still took Monk years to get into Canton because he was never really an elite WR. If Ward's case is SB rings, then Cliff Branch has a much stronger resume than Hines Ward.

I just don't see anything other than his SB MVP that screams out HOFer to me, and even the SB MVP argument is kind of a "cherry on top" than anything substantial.

But who knows, I've been wrong about guys in the past (Floyd Little, Dick LeBeau, etc).

It's the total package really. It's not one selling point. He has good numbers, SB's, SB MVP.

 

[FirstTimer]

I don't even know what that means? That's not even a substantial statement bro.

Srs?

See below

Carter was an 8-time pro bowler and a 2 time All-Pro, and that was in the tough NFC which was stockpiled with great WRs. Ward made the pro bowl a few times, and was never considered one of the top WRs in the game. If Ward's case is longevity and blocking, then Art Monk retired as the all-time leading WR and it still took Monk years to get into Canton because he was never really an elite WR. If Ward's case is SB rings, then Cliff Branch has a much stronger resume than Hines Ward.

I just don't see anything other than his SB MVP that screams out HOFer to me, and even the SB MVP argument is kind of a "cherry on top" than anything substantial.

But who knows, I've been wrong about guys in the past (Floyd Little, Dick LeBeau, etc).

Carter had a few years of playing with Randy Moss as well.

That really doesn't weigh much into.

Carter was already a 5 time pro bowler, 1 time All Pro, and had lead the league in receptions and TD's(twice) before Moss even joined the team.

Leading up to Moss joining the Vikings these were Carter's seasons

86-1071-9TD (PB)
122-1256-7TD (Led league in receptions) (PB) (AP)
122-1371-17TD (Led league in TD's)(PB)
96-1163-10TD(PB)
89-1069-13TD(Lead league in TD's)(PB)

Moss showed up and Carter's numbers didn't drop off/improve. He stayed pretty much a constant. Lead the league in TD's one more time, made three more pro bowls, one more All Pro team, had three more 1,000 yard seasons than got old and retired.

Carter's "prime" started 5 years before Moss even got to Minny. Bringing up Carter playing with Moss really holds no weight here. Carter was/is viewed as a much better WR than Ward relative to their respective playing days.

 

[RosettaStoned]

Carter's "prime" started 5 years before Moss even got to Minny. Bringing up Carter playing with Moss really holds no weight here. Carter was/is viewed as a much better WR than Ward relative to their respective playing days.

It helped prolong his career as a possesion receiver. He played two more seasons, had 100 more catches. Meh I dunno.. He was great in redzone but meh everywhere else. Ward was a more complete player IMO.

 

[ralaw]

IMO Ward will eventually get in....his stats are comparable to other HOF players, he has 1,000 receptions, for 12,083 yards, and 85 touchdowns and all of this while playing the majority of his career in a run oriented offense. Once you add his 2 SB's and 1 SB MVP he has to be a HOFer....eventually. He is probably also considered he greatest blocking WR off all-time was well. After all of that you add in the fact that he was the face of the franchise and seemingly liked by most he's a HOFer.

 

[FirstTimer]

It helped prolong his career as a possesion receiver. He played two more seasons, had 100 more catches. Meh I dunno.. He was great in redzone but meh everywhere else. Ward was a more complete player IMO.

Based on what? Like I said Carter wasn't "falling" off before Moss showed up. His stats didn't spike, they didn't fall up and down, and he retired at 37. It's not like Moss came in and Carter was catching 45 passes a year at 34 and clearly declining then Moss arrives and the stats spike and he drags more seasons out of it.

Carter was a tremendous WR everywhere on the field IMO and obviously was better regarded among his peers than Ward was based on awards. At their peaks Carter was both better and had the longer and better peak.

I'm not sure what the point is here. Would you put Ward into the HOF before Carter?

I'm not even agaisnt Ward making the HOF but there are more deserving WR's that should go in first IMO. Cris Carter, Andre Reed, Issac Bruce, Marvin Harrison, Tim Brown etc are some of them. Ward isn't in those class of guys all time.

If/when Ward goes in I likely won't fight it much(unless he snubs someone else getting in) I just don't think he's a lock and doesn't have some stonecold case.

 

[Aso]

It's not like Carter was a slouch as a blocker either. Just because he didn't go around blindsiding people, breaking other peoples jaws doesn't mean he should be viewed any less in that regard imo.

 

[RosettaStoned]

Based on what? Like I said Carter wasn't "falling" off before Moss showed up. His stats didn't spike, they didn't fall up and down, and he retired at 37. It's not like Moss came in and Carter was catching 45 passes a year at 34 and clearly declining then Moss arrives and the stats spike and he drags more seasons out of it.

No, but he fell off towards the end of even playing with Moss, and did nothing after Moss.

Carter was a tremendous WR everywhere on the field IMO and obviously was better regarded among his peers than Ward was based on awards. At their peaks Carter was both better and had the longer and better peak.

He was a great possesion receiver, especially in the redzone. I never considered him to be the best WR in the league at any point in his career. Ward either.

I'm not sure what the point is here. Would you put Ward into the HOF before Carter?

No, I'd say they are about even really. Carter had slightly better numbers, but Ward played bigger in big games, had 2 rings, and a SB MVP.

I'm not even agaisnt Ward making the HOF but there are more deserving WR's that should go in first IMO. Cris Carter, Andre Reed, Issac Bruce, Marvin Harrison, Tim Brown etc are some of them. Ward isn't in those class of guys all time.

Some of them should go in before Ward. I don't recall saying otherwise?

Carter isn't one of them IMO that seperates himself from Ward. I think Ward was a better player.

 

[RosettaStoned]

It's not like Carter was a slouch as a blocker either. Just because he didn't go around blindsiding people, breaking other peoples jaws doesn't mean he should be viewed any less in that regard imo.

He was not in the same league as Ward as a blocker. Hard hits or not.

 

[FirstTimer]

No, but he fell off towards the end of even playing with Moss

/

Because he was a 36 year old WR catching passes from Spergeon Wynn.

So because Cris Carter went to Miami at 37 years old and was a non factor and had kidney issues and retired that means Moss "helped" Carter stay relevant in Minnesota even though Carter was viewed as one of the top WR's in the league when Moss was getting rejected by colleges and was a highly productive WR both immedietly before and during Moss tenure in Minny?

This argument makes no sense.

I'd say they are about even really.

:gayrod:

Carter isn't one of them IMO that seperates himself from Ward. I think Ward was a better player.

:gayrod:

I wouldn't even put Carter and Ward in the same sentence career wise.

 

[Aso]

I think Rosey is being a bit of a homer here.

 

[ralaw]

I'm not even agaisnt Ward making the HOF but there are more deserving WR's that should go in first IMO. Cris Carter, Andre Reed, Issac Bruce, Marvin Harrison, Tim Brown etc are some of them. Ward isn't in those class of guys all time.

I vaguely remember Andre Reed, because I really didn't follow the NFL too much back when he was in his prime. Was Reed any better than Ward? I know W2B wouldn't approve of this, but was Isaac Bruce that good? I never really considered him to be that great, but instead very solid and consistent...much like Harrison only he didn't play with Manning...I may be wrong, but much like Reed nothing that Bruce did really stuck out to me. From that list I'll give you Carter, Brown and Harrison over Ward, but the rest...IDK.

 

[FirstTimer]

I vaguely remember Andre Reed, because I really didn't follow the NFL too much back when he was in his prime. Was Reed any better than Ward?

Reed and Ward are similar enough IMO.

I think Reed was a better WR but when you look at "peak seasons" they are somewhat comparable. Reed did make 7 straight pro bowls though.

I think Reed should get in ahead of Ward but in eitehr case I think Ward getting in would help Reed and Reed getting in helps Ward.

Of those I listed Reed is the closest to Ward.

I know W2B wouldn't approve of this, but was Isaac Bruce that good? I never really considered him to be that great, but instead very solid and consistent...much like Harrison only he didn't play with Manning...I may be wrong, but much like Reed nothing that Bruce did really stuck out to me. From that list I'll give you Carter, Brown and Harrison over Ward, but the rest...IDK.

Bruce to me was that good. He only made 4 pro bowls but his "peaks" were better than Ward. He put up really nice lines on some shitty Rams teams, had some very good years with the "Show" then hung around and put up solid numbers. If I was choosing between two WR's I'd take Bruce over Ward.

I'm willing to quibble over Reed/Ward and MAYBE if I'm bored Bruce/Ward...but Cris Carter and Hines Ward?

:cano:

No way in hell.

 

[FirstTimer]

Also, assuming Torry Holy stays retired Ward may have to contend with him as well.

 

[Aso]

And Torry Holt over Hines Ward easily as well.