Is Jonathan Vilma the NFL "escape goat"?

[MrBill]

lol @ you people.

What do you mean by "you people"? :shifty:

 

[mgoblue2290]

THERE IS NO EVIDENCE. ONLY CLAIMS OF EVIDENCE.

Why hasn't the evidence and the 2000 or so page investigation report haven't been released. How come the NFL has never even talked to the players. The victims or the accused. The Saints side to the story has gotten a much clearer picture with a couple of former Saints employees saying what actually happened.

And the conspiracy theories are a flying. The last thing the NFL would want to do is taint the image of the Saints. They market them and the city of New Orleans' comeback very heavily.

If the Saints had some dignity they would clean house like others have said. Show that this stuff isn't tolerated. Instead they tried covering it up like the scumbag organization they are.

 

[BrntO4Life]

So you are OK with the NFL withholding information? I bet you didn't know that you as a US citizen have the right to request just about any file that you want and the NFLPA requested them to release the report and yet they are still withholding it. What I believe is that the whole situation is being overblown to something bigger than it actually was. That is something that can possibly be found in the report. This is really all for PR for good ole Goodell. That is why he has kept it relevant for so long. Let's just say that there is no evidence since no one can find it on the field.

By this train of thought, I should be able to waltz into Apple HQ and demand their plans for the next 5 years of product prototyping, right?

 

[Rblake]

So you are OK with the NFL withholding information?

Yes, it is their right to do so. If it becomes a criminal matter, the info can be subpoenaed.

I bet you didn't know that you as a US citizen have the right to request just about any file that you want and the NFLPA requested them to release the report and yet they are still withholding it.

I did know that US citizens have the right to REQUEST anything. It's freedom of speech. I can request that you give me all your $, that doesn't require you to comply.

What I believe is that the whole situation is being overblown to something bigger than it actually was. That is something that can possibly be found in the report.

This is your uninformed, guesstimated opinion based on effectively ZERO factual evidence? Sweet.

This is really all for PR for good ole Goodell. That is why he has kept it relevant for so long. Let's just say that there is no evidence since no one can find it on the field.

The players and coaches that gave written statements don't count? You don't know what evidence they do or don't have...because they haven't released it, remember?

 

[Rblake]

By this train of thought, I should be able to waltz into Apple HQ and demand their plans for the next 5 years of product prototyping, right?

I KNOW MY RIGHTS!!!!!!!!!!!

Oh, and this, too...

 

[ralaw]

http://sports.yahoo.com/investigations/news?slug=ys-jonathan_vilma_allegations

And this....



Vilma was "best buddies" with Miami slimeball Nevin Shapiro, took bounty money at Miami, and mysteriously had two international criminals murdered in his home.

While I agree with you about Vilma don't you think it is a bit of a stretch to connect two Liberian men being killed in Vilma's condominium with Vilma having suspect character? A condominium doesn't equal a home.

 

[Bigpapa42]

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/7...-bounty-evidence-vs-new-orleans-saints-strong

NEW YORK -- A former U.S. attorney hired by the NFL to evaluate its investigation of the New Orleans Saints' bounty program said Thursday the evidence shows players received payments for hits on targeted opponents.

Mary Jo White said in a conference call that evidence in the league's investigation of the three-year, pay-for-pain system provided "an unusually strong record" and came from people with "firsthand knowledge and corroborated by documentation."

When asked twice whether any players actually were paid for hits, White confirmed they were, without going into specifics. She added that most of the money in the bounty scheme was provided by the players.

"Without them, there wouldn't been a bounty program," she said.

White, the former U.S. attorney for the Southern District of New York, was asked last December by the NFL to examine the evidence.

"The factual basis for the sanctions is quite strong in my opinion," she said. "You must safeguard the identity of people that provide information to you in order to protect them, and also to encourage others in the future to come forward with evidence of wrongdoing. This is certainly not a one-on-one, he-said, she-said record at all. This is multiple independent sources."

White saw no merit in complaints from the players' union that it had not received "detailed or specific evidence from the league of specific players' involvement in an alleged pay-to-injure program."

"The players sanctioned all activity and enthusiastically embraced this program," White said. "They always had the option to say no. They didn't say no.

"It is no defense that coaches were involved in it, this was an individual responsibility each player has and each coach has. Each player had the responsibility to say no to this program and they didn't do that. They obviously had the option to report this to the union and they didn't do that."

Richard Smith, outside counsel for the union, disputed White's evaluation of the evidence.

"I was at the meeting with the NFL's lead investigators in March. She was not there," Smith said. "Anyone, especially former prosecutors like both of us, know that what the league provided could never be called `substantial evidence' of player participation in a pay-to-injure program.

"Worse yet, Mary Jo provided nothing new or compelling today beyond another press briefing."

NFL Players Association executive director DeMaurice Smith and Domonique Foxworth, the recently elected union president, are in New Orleans talking with Saints players.

The four current and former New Orleans players suspended -- linebacker Jonathan Vilma for the 2012 season; defensive lineman Anthony Hargrove, now with Green Bay, for eight games; defensive end Will Smith, for four games; and linebacker Scott Fujita, now with Cleveland and a member of the union's executive board, for three games -- were given three days to appeal when commissioner Roger Goodell handed down the punishment Wednesday.

Vilma and Will Smith released statements Wednesday denying any involvement in a bounty program and pledging to fight their penalties.

The league said no player agreed to be interviewed in person, and the players also declined to send someone to argue on their behalf, league sources told ESPN NFL Insider Adam Schefter. As one NFL source said, "They took the Fifth Amendment."

The NFLPA did not share information from its own investigation, and league sources told Schefter that the union never recommended any discipline in the case.

A Saints source who testified during the league's investigation told ESPN's Ed Werder Wednesday that he believed the league's findings are exaggerated. The source said that while the report said the program existed for three seasons, it was limited to playoff games in the Superdome against Arizona and Minnesota in 2009.

The source told Werder that the program began when former Saints defensive coordinator Gregg Williams was concerned about creating a higher level of motivation for his defensive players as they prepared for the postseason.

Before a team meeting, Williams told Vilma that he had a plan, and that the coach provided Vilma with the $10,000 he offered to any teammate who knocked out quarterback Kurt Warner.

The source said Vilma returned the money to Williams following the meeting.

According to the source, Williams believed the financial reward created the proper defensive mindset. So Williams and Vilma repeated the scenario the next week before playing the Vikings and quarterback Brett Favre, who was the victim of several illegal hits and had to be helped from the field, but finished the game.

Union representatives did not say when appeals might be filed. The NFLPA said after the penalties were handed down that it would pursue all options on the Saints players' behalf.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

While I agree with you about Vilma don't you think it is a bit of a stretch to connect two Liberian men being killed in Vilma's condominium with Vilma having suspect character? A condominium doesn't equal a home.

Not on it's own, but I mean jeez, this guy is always mixed up in really bad shit. I have no idea if he had anything to do with the murders of these shady dudes, but ffs, it was his property, and he was obviously at minimum mixed up with people who were mixed up with these Jason Statham movie international criminals.

The bottom line with Vilma, is smoke = fire. He's no model citizen, and to me, has zero credibility. None.

 

[Tailback U]

The 30 for 30 on all of this should be pretty interesting once it comes out in a few years.

 

[citizenerased]

So you are OK with the NFL withholding information? I bet you didn't know that you as a US citizen have the right to request just about any file that you want and the NFLPA requested them to release the report and yet they are still withholding it. What I believe is that the whole situation is being overblown to something bigger than it actually was. That is something that can possibly be found in the report. This is really all for PR for good ole Goodell. That is why he has kept it relevant for so long. Let's just say that there is no evidence since no one can find it on the field.

What the fuck are you talking about?

The Saints turnaround from Katrina to Superbowl Champs was Roger Goddells and the NFL marketing departments wet dream. You seriously saying they wanted to torpedo all that so they could frame the Saints?

That's some next level stupidity, even for this forum.

 

[KNUBB]

What the fuck are you talking about?

The Saints turnaround from Katrina to Superbowl Champs was Roger Goddells and the NFL marketing departments wet dream. You seriously saying they wanted to torpedo all that so they could frame the Saints?

That's some next level stupidity, even for this forum.

The "demise" of the Saints isn't the PR. It is Goodell pretending to care about player safety. My point is Goodell kept this shit show going to keep up that image with all the lawsuits he is facing. Instead of just laying down his ruling he let out the accusations. Let the media talk about it for a few weeks. Then laid down his rulings on the coaches. Let that mull for a couple of weeks and when it begins to die down he hits the players. Instead of one swoop he is keeping his name as a person that actually cares relevant while he is about to get shit out by the former players.

 

[ThomasTomasz]

I'm referencing the original article FT posted, but how is it "fair" for Vilma to get 4 or 8 games? By all accounts, he was the ringleader for this as far as players go, and personally put out the biggest bounties that we know about.

So a years suspension for the ringleader, much like Payton and Williams have, is pretty damn fair. This isn't like he got caught up in the moment or anything like that. Also, being in a leadership position in the locker room, he could have helped stop it, or at least help downplay it (because it happens in more than just the Saints locker room.) Very fair in my estimate.

 

[KNUBB]

Guess no one saw the report that Greg Williams gave Vilma the money to do it. He felt if his defensive captain was putting on the show it would be felt more to the defense. But no. No one saw that one huh. The Saints side of the story gets largely unnoticed. I'll look for the report. Read it a few days ago.

 

[BrntO4Life]

Guess no one saw the report that Greg Williams gave Vilma the money to do it. He felt if his defensive captain was putting on the show it would be felt more to the defense. But no. No one saw that one huh. The Saints side of the story gets largely unnoticed. I'll look for the report. Read it a few days ago.

And Vilma didn't say "You know what coach, that sounds like a pretty fucked up thing to do. Thanks, but no thanks."

Stop defending these goons.

 

[EmpireWF]

The "demise" of the Saints isn't the PR. It is Goodell pretending to care about player safety. My point is Goodell kept this shit show going to keep up that image with all the lawsuits he is facing. Instead of just laying down his ruling he let out the accusations. Let the media talk about it for a few weeks. Then laid down his rulings on the coaches. Let that mull for a couple of weeks and when it begins to die down he hits the players. Instead of one swoop he is keeping his name as a person that actually cares relevant while he is about to get shit out by the former players.

So you don't lay ANY blame whatsoever with the Saints?

They could have avoided all of this had they just a) not lied and b) cut the system when the NFL told them to stop. They lied and continued on with it so I fail to consider the Saints a victim in any of this.

 

[KNUBB]

and yet we still don't have any evidence? What you have a pre-game speech(locker room talk). Nothing on the field matches what they are being accused of. I want to see the report. Show me the evidence. Show me something that is completely out of the realm of the game of football. Until then you have no evidence. It's all he say she say and at this point all we have heard is what Goodell claims he has. I guess you all trust Goodell on his word, but anyone else's on the matter is irrelevant? Also it was Ed Werder who reported what I was alluding to a few posts ago. I am trying to find a written article on it.

 

[EmpireWF]

I'm not gonna believe a conspiracy theory that the Commish one day woke up and decided he was gonna put the screws to the Saints for no good reason other than for PR purposes....while the Saints owner lets this all happen and doesn't say a word to the contrary.

 

[KNUBB]

I'm sure glad you label me a conspiracy theorist to back up your claims. In America you do know that you have the right to know what you're being accused of. Imagine a court case where the prosecution talks circles around the evidence they have against the defendant but fails to present it. Maybe it is me growing up around lawyers that has me wanting to see the evidence. Maybe it is the common sense in me to want to see it. All that you guys can do is spew off more crap from the media. The media hasn't even seen the evidence. What do they know. Other than what Goodell has said. Absolutely nothing. No one wants to upset Goodell though cuz he holds the trump card due to his job as the head honcho of the biggest pro sports league in the country.

Sidenote: I told myself I wouldn't get sucked into Bounty Gate talk again. I will go back to that stance since every single one of you is on the same level as Skip Bayless with all the baseless claims and shock jock like statements.

 

[BrntO4Life]

KNUBB, I need you to break down what is incorrect about this article and where your beef is...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/sport...ts-were-made/2012/05/03/gIQAx4I5yT_story.html

NEW YORK — A former U.S. attorney hired by the NFL to evaluate its investigation of the New Orleans Saints’ bounty program said Thursday the evidence shows players received payments for hits on targeted opponents.

Mary Jo White said in a conference call that evidence in the league’s investigation of the three-year pay-for-pain system provided “an unusually strong record” and came from people with “firsthand knowledge and corroborated by documentation.”

When asked twice whether any players actually were paid for hits, White confirmed they were without going into specifics. She added that most of the money in the bounty scheme was provided by the players.

“Without them, there wouldn’t have been a bounty program,” she said.

White, the former U.S. attorney for the Southern District of New York, was asked last December by the NFL to examine the evidence.

“The factual basis for the sanctions is quite strong in my opinion,” she said. “You must safeguard the identity of people that provide information to you in order to protect them, and also to encourage others in the future to come forward with evidence of wrongdoing. This is certainly not a one-on-one, he-said, she-said record at all. This is multiple independent sources.”

White saw no merit in complaints from the players’ union that it had not received, “detailed or specific evidence from the league of specific players’ involvement in an alleged pay-to-injure program.”

“The players sanctioned all activity and enthusiastically embraced this program,” White said. “They always had the option to say no. They didn’t say no.

“It is no defense that coaches were involved in it, this was an individual responsibility each player has and each coach has. Each player had the responsibility to say no to this program and they didn’t do that. They obviously had the option to report this to the union and they didn’t do that.”

Richard Smith, outside counsel for the union, disputed White’s evaluation of the evidence.

“I was at the meeting with the NFL’s lead investigators in March. She was not there,” Smith said. “Anyone, especially former prosecutors like both of us, know that what the league provided could never be called ‘substantial evidence’ of player participation in a pay-to-injure program.

“Worse yet, Mary Jo provided nothing new or compelling today beyond another press briefing.”

NFL Players Association executive director DeMaurice Smith and Domonique Foxworth, the recently elected union president, are in New Orleans talking with Saints players. The four current and former New Orleans players suspended — linebacker Jonathan Vilma for the 2012 season; defensive lineman Anthony Hargrove, now with Green Bay, for eight games; defensive end Will Smith, for four games; linebacker Scott Fujita, now with Cleveland and a member of the union’s executive board, for three games — were given three days to appeal when Commissioner Roger Goodell handed down the punishment Wednesday.

The NFLPA did not say when appeals might be filed, but said after the penalties were handed down that it would pursue all options on the Saints players’ behalf. When asked on his Twitter account if he planned to appeal, Vilma said: “definitely.”

Obviously, you're mad that the NFL isn't giving their evidence up to the NFLPA or the public, but they aren't really required to. The NFLPA is and should not be in a position to protect players who have attempted to injure or maim other players inside of the same union. The fact that they are is pretty disconcerting to me.

This is a prime example of why unions suck.

 

[EmpireWF]

I'm sure glad you label me a conspiracy theorist to back up your claims. In America you do know that you have the right to know what you're being accused of. Imagine a court case where the prosecution talks circles around the evidence they have against the defendant but fails to present it. Maybe it is me growing up around lawyers that has me wanting to see the evidence. Maybe it is the common sense in me to want to see it. All that you guys can do is spew off more crap from the media. The media hasn't even seen the evidence. What do they know. Other than what Goodell has said. Absolutely nothing. No one wants to upset Goodell though cuz he holds the trump card due to his job as the head honcho of the biggest pro sports league in the country.

This isn't a court of law.

The only thing you're talking about is there's no evidence. So the only thing that would make sense is if he made all this up and pursued it....which is ridiculous.

We know the league told Loomis and Payton to cut the shit. Both lied and did not do as they were told and are serving their punishments accordingly. You really thing that if all this was made up by the league, that the Saints hierarchy would be taking it up the ass like bitches with no backbone? Hell no.