Len Bias, The Legend You Know, The Story You Didn't

[FirstTimer]

LOL at this. Comparing Len Bias, a player who died of cocaine use, to some of the all-time greats. Len Bias obviously didn't have the best mental make up in the world, regardless if he survived his brush with death in 86, how the hell would you expect him to stay clean as an NBA player.

It is beyond retarded to sit here and say Bias would have been one of the all time greats had he survived.

 

[dell71]

LOL at this. Comparing Len Bias, a player who died of cocaine use, to some of the all-time greats. Len Bias obviously didn't have the best mental make up in the world, regardless if he survived his brush with death in 86, how the hell would you expect him to stay clean as an NBA player.

It is beyond retarded to sit here and say Bias would have been one of the all time greats had he survived.

The thing about him is that before the day he died most people thought he was squeaky clean and the Celts really did envision him coming in and being the next Celtic great.

In hindsight, you're probably right. The '86 draft was filled with guys who didn't pan out due to drugs.

 

[dope]

It's crazy how long after his death schools still use him as an example to not do drugs.

Also I remember my teachers telling me that was the only time he did coke and if I did coke once I would die too.

 

[Senser81]

It's crazy how long after his death schools still use him as an example to not do drugs.

Also I remember my teachers telling me that was the only time he did coke and if I did coke once I would die too.

Hmm...I thought doing coke was like having sex...you can't die the first time you do it.

 

[Len B]

Actually, it doesn't say that much. It's just the two best guys he's faced from the ACC.

Because Coach K has no idea what goes on outside the ACC...

LOL at this. Comparing Len Bias, a player who died of cocaine use, to some of the all-time greats. Len Bias obviously didn't have the best mental make up in the world, regardless if he survived his brush with death in 86, how the hell would you expect him to stay clean as an NBA player.

It is beyond retarded to sit here and say Bias would have been one of the all time greats had he survived.

Er... who said Len Bias would have been the best player of all time in the NBA? All that's been said is that he was one of the most amazing college players to ever play the game.

And as far as everyone knows, Bias WAS squeaky clean before his cocaine binge. Maybe this movie states otherwise, but I doubt it.

 

[FirstTimer]

Er... who said Len Bias would have been the best player of all time in the NBA? All that's been said is that he was one of the most amazing college players to ever play the game.

Errr...Right here....

I don't think Bias would have been as good as Jordan because of the team Jordan had around him. But Bias would have probably gone down as the #2 best player ever to play the game.

And as far as everyone knows, Bias WAS squeaky clean before his cocaine binge. Maybe this movie states otherwise, but I doubt it.

I don't care if he was clean or not before his binge. That's not the point I was making. The fact that 2 days after the draft he did coke, whether for the first time or not, shows a serious character flaw and would mak eme question if he could hold up in the NBA life to become one of the best ever as a select few think he would have.

 

[Len B]

Bmore is a known Washington area homer...

And lol @ character flaw. I'm sure we've all done shit once or twice that we wished we never did. One mistake doesn't mean your character is flawed.

Though, I suppose he could always lead that life if he hadn't died, but it's not really fair to judge him until he actually lead that life.

 

[dell71]

I don't care if he was clean or not before his binge. That's not the point I was making. The fact that 2 days after the draft he did coke, whether for the first time or not, shows a serious character flaw and would mak eme question if he could hold up in the NBA life to become one of the best ever as a select few think he would have.

Like I said, you have a valid point. But the fact remains that since everyone at least thought he was squeaky clean to that point they planned accordingly. Boston really did have huge plans for this guy. When those plans fell through, the franchise got set back.

 

[FirstTimer]

Bmore is a known Washington area homer...

And lol @ character flaw. I'm sure we've all done shit once or twice that we wished we never did. One mistake doesn't mean your character is flawed.

Though, I suppose he could always lead that life if he hadn't died, but it's not really fair to judge him until he actually lead that life.

Small mistakes =/= to doing enough cocaine to kill yourself 2 days after basically getting set for life.

Sorry but snorting enough coke to kill yourself does show a character flaw/inability to make decisions. Even choosing to do cocaine at all, ESPECIALLY after being drafted and having the whole world at your feet speaks to not being the best thinker or having the best makeup charcater wise, especially pursuing a career as a professional athlete.

Character flaw doesn't mean Bias was a bad kid. It just means that he he had a flaw in his character in context of being able to make smart choices.

Like I said, you have a valid point. But the fact remains that since everyone at least thought he was squeaky clean to that point they planned accordingly. Boston really did have huge plans for this guy. When those plans fell through, the franchise got set back.

I understand that, but regardless of Boston's plans for him the kid still fucked up. It's kind of like Jay Williams ruining his NBA career because of his shitheaded choice to have a motorcycle.

 

[dell71]

I understand that, but regardless of Boston's plans for him the kid still fucked up. It's kind of like Jay Williams ruining his NBA career because of his shitheaded choice to have a motorcycle.

Not saying he didn't fuck up, just that his fucking up had huge ramifications on basketball in two areas (Boston & Maryland).

 

[FirstTimer]

Not saying he didn't fuck up, just that his fucking up had huge ramifications on basketball in two areas (Boston & Maryland).

I know but the effects on Maryland were much more tangible and real. The effects on the Celtics are more speculative. Could Bias have gone on to be a very good player in the NBA? Of course. Could he just as easily been a draft bust for a plethora of reasons? Of course.

I guess I just don't get why Boston fans are so set in the idea that the death of Bias was the start of their fall from grace when we have no idea what he would have done in the NBA.

This isn't like football fans wondering "what if" about Gale Sayers and if he had stayed healthy. We saw how spectacular Sayers could be when 100%. We have no idea how Bias would have fared in the pro's and to act like he was a sure thing is a stretch. I guess that's just where I'm coming from.

 

[Len B]

Because you couple one of the greatest college players ever with the death of Reggie Lewis, and you have two huge investments (in a game where two huge players can help you win a lot) that turn into literally nothing.

I know there's no guarantee, but basketball in the late 80's/early 90's wasn't a sport where you could just turn around your franchise through free agency. Boston had 0% of success without these two players, where as if they had them both the % was greater than zero, and that's all that matters.

 

[FirstTimer]

Because you couple one of the greatest college players ever coupled with the death of Reggie Lewis, and you have two huge investments (in a game where two huge players can help you win a lot) that turn into literally nothing.

Again, that's my point. Reggie Lewis is a bigger lost than Bias ever was. You saw what Reggie Lewis could do in the pros. You could see the tangible loss of Lewis and actually knew what you were missing at the NBA level.

The Bias loss is more of this emotional, speculative, never saw stuff because you have absolutley no idea what he would have done in the pros or if he even would have been a factor due to a variety of issues.

 

[FirstTimer]

I know there's no guarantee, but basketball in the late 80's/early 90's wasn't a sport where you could just turn around your franchise through free agency. Boston had 0% of success without these two players, where as if they had them both the % was greater than zero, and that's all that matters.

You don't know that having Bias would have increased your odds of anything because you have no idea what he would have done at the NBA level. If it was nothing, then it doesn't help your odds anyways.

 

[dell71]

I know but the effects on Maryland were much more tangible and real. The effects on the Celtics are more speculative. Could Bias have gone on to be a very good player in the NBA? Of course. Could he just as easily been a draft bust for a plethora of reasons? Of course.

I guess I just don't get why Boston fans are so set in the idea that the death of Bias was the start of their fall from grace when we have no idea what he would have done in the NBA.

This isn't like football fans wondering "what if" about Gale Sayers and if he had stayed healthy. We saw how spectacular Sayers could be when 100%. We have no idea how Bias would have fared in the pro's and to act like he was a sure thing is a stretch. I guess that's just where I'm coming from.

All true, except one thing. If he had been a draft bust that also would've set the team back. It really was the draft pick that was supposed to take the team into another era of greatness without missing a beat. So sure, he could've been a bust but that also would've had the franchise scrambling. Remember, they rarely picked at the top of the draft (they got this pick through a trade 2 years earlier) so they fully prepared to usher in the next Celts superstar.

To be fair, they did find a good SF the very next year at the bottom of the first round, Reggie Lewis as has been stated. However, I can honestly say with a fair amount of certainty that they don't use that pick on Lewis if Bias makes it to Boston. Maybe several picks are altered if Bias lives. Even if he's proven to be a bust, it's likely Boston would've still stuck by him for a few seasons at least. It wasn't like it is now, where guys get dropped like hot potatoes if they don't pan out immediately. I mean, Roy Tarpley was taken in the same draft as Bias and lord knows how many chances the Mavs gave him before finally giving up (if you don't know the story, google him and the '86 draft in general to see how screwed up those guys in the first round were). Compounding the problem, Lewis died six years into his career just as he was becoming a consistent 20 point-a-night scorer, so that didn't exactly help either.

 

[Bmore]

You don't know that having Bias would have increased your odds of anything because you have no idea what he would have done at the NBA level. If it was nothing, then it doesn't help your odds anyways.

I can see what you mean by "what ifs" and no one knows what he would have done. But signs point to him being one of the best. He won Player of the year twice in the hardest conference in America. He was compared through his college career as the Kryptonite to Michael Jordan.

Usually in the NBA, when someone is compared to a great. They aren't to shabby.

 

[Prodigal Son]

Because Coach K has no idea what goes on outside the ACC...

Tom Izzo doesn't know shit outside of the Big 10.

Calhoun doesn't know shit outside of the Big East.

Coaches aren't going to give a shit about players they aren't going to face at least twice in a year, and at least 8 times in a 4 year stretch.

You apparently think that the two greatest players that Coach K has ever coached against somehow came from the ACC is just a coincidence?

 

[FirstTimer]

All true, except one thing. If he had been a draft bust that also would've set the team back. It really was the draft pick that was supposed to take the team into another era of greatness without missing a beat. So sure, he could've been a bust but that also would've had the franchise scrambling. Remember, they rarely picked at the top of the draft (they got this pick through a trade 2 years earlier) so they fully prepared to usher in the next Celts superstar.

Again it's all speculation. The Celtics made the NBA Finals in 86-87 and even if Bias had panned out who were the Celtics going to put around him? The success of the Celtics was always multiple good/great players. Bird, parish, McHale, DJ etc were all going to age anyways and so far as replacements the Celtics would have had Bias in 86, Reggie Lewis a few years later...and what else? Especially in an Eastern Conference comign up with emerging teams in the Bulls, Knicks, Hornets, etcit's quite a leap to assume that Bias was supposed to help the Celtics move on without missing a beat when in 3-4 years he would not have been surrounded by much.

Also, I thought they got that pick from a trade Red made in April of that same season?

Bias being a bust/dying would have had the same effect. Nothing. If Bias busted the Celts move on and try and make other moves as all other NBA teams do when a draft pick busts out.

Bias is getting WAY too much credit for the downfall of the Celtics for a guy that never even set foot on an NBA floor and we have no idea what he would have done.

It's great sports romanticsm to imagine this other golden Celtic era with Len Bias at the head of it but no one knows what he would have done and to assume any sort of greatness is a reach.

To be fair, they did find a good SF the very next year at the bottom of the first round, Reggie Lewis as has been stated. However, I can honestly say with a fair amount of certainty that they don't use that pick on Lewis if Bias makes it to Boston. Maybe several picks are altered if Bias lives. Even if he's proven to be a bust, it's likely Boston would've still stuck by him for a few seasons at least. It wasn't like it is now, where guys get dropped like hot potatoes if they don't pan out immediately. I mean, Roy Tarpley was taken in the same draft as Bias and lord knows how many chances the Mavs gave him before finally giving up (if you don't know the story, google him and the '86 draft in general to see how screwed up those guys in the first round were). Compounding the problem, Lewis died six years into his career just as he was becoming a consistent 20 point-a-night scorer, so that didn't exactly help either.

That's why I said that Lewis was a much bigger loss than Bias ever was.

Lewis=proven NBA talent
Bias=mythic ghost of NBA potential.

I can see what you mean by "what ifs" and no one knows what he would have done. But signs point to him being one of the best. He won Player of the year twice in the hardest conference in America. He was compared through his college career as the Kryptonite to Michael Jordan.

Usually in the NBA, when someone is compared to a great. They aren't to shabby.

No. Signs point to him being one hell of a college player. I would argue there are more signs pointing to him being a bust in the NBA than a success simply because of his lack of personal discipline.

Each year there are plenty of draft busts. Guys who people thought that would be good or great in the NBA and end up doing nothing. To say "well he was expected to be great in the pros" as a rationalization for saying he would have ended up being the 2nd best NBA player ever is retarded.

 

[Senser81]

If I was GM of a team and knew that if I drafted Reggie Lewis I would be getting a guy who could score 18-20ppg, and if I drafted Len Bias I would be getting an unknown commodity and could only guess at Bias' potential, I would still draft Bias because IMO he had the potential to a Dwayne Wade type of player. Reggie Lewis proved to be a very good NBA player, but Bias had the potential to be one of the 3 or 4 best players in the league.

Just my $0.02

 

[Bmore]

yea it only took 1 time.