MMA HOF

[KINGOFOOTBALL]

IMO notoriety and aura are huge in combat sports. I have a hard time getting interested in some fights without it so why would I exclude it from HOF criteria. Not that someone shouldn't I just can't personally.

Silvas kick to the face ended the Vitor aura. Had he won it would have been validation of the decade of hype. Instead it was just another holy God moment for Silva.

 

[Steel Mamba]

LOL, where is the flip flop?

Because you basically just said that UFC midcarders of today would dominate back then. Admitting that Saku wouldn't fair well by todays standards, which is already proven, he couldn't keep up when the sport started to evolve. Then Rob comes in with some nonsense about how he could transcend eras which is contradictory to what you were accepting earlier.

Either way the argument of him being a HOFer basically means you only need 3 years of solid work to be considered a HOF. A great stretch, but not hardly a long one IMO.

It's not worth arguing though. I've been down this road many times before and it gets tiring trying to speak the truth about your idols. I caught a lot of shit for talking about Dana back on MM, along with Fedor, etc etc. Eventually everyone came around to what I was saying..

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

Because you basically just said that UFC midcarders of today would dominate back then. Admitting that Saku wouldn't fair well by todays standards, which is already proven, he couldn't keep up when the sport started to evolve. Then Rob comes in with some nonsense about how he could transcend eras which is contradictory to what you were accepting earlier.

Either way the argument of him being a HOFer basically means you only need 3 years of solid work to be considered a HOF. A great stretch, but not hardly a long one IMO.

It's not worth arguing though. I've been down this road many times before and it gets tiring trying to speak the truth about your idols. I caught a lot of shit for talking about Dana back on MM, along with Fedor, etc etc. Eventually everyone came around to what I was saying..

NOBODY from the early 2000's would do as well today, including guys from the 2000's who are still fighting today, because the sport evolves at a ridiculous pace. That's why saying something like "how would Sakuraba do today against modern MW's?" is irrelevant and makes no sense. It doesn't matter, you can only compare guys to their competition.

It doesn't matter if Babe Ruth can hit Roy Halladay or if Oscar Robertson could average a triple double in 2012. All that matters is that both of those guys were dominant forces in their respective eras.

Just like Sakuraba, who fought all of the top names of his era, and beat everybody until his body broke down. And not only did he beat everybody, he did it without cutting an ounce of weight against guys bigger than him in many cases.

Saku didn't stop dominating simply because the sport evolved without him, he stopped dominating because he got old and broke down. Just like Liddell. Just like Frank Shamrock. Just like Coleman. Just like Wandy. Just like a million other guys, and just like what will eventually happen to every fighter unless they retire on top like Bas did and you never see the broken down version.

Just because Nick Lentz or Charlie Brenneman could go back in time with advanced skills and dominate does not make them better in the big picture than guys from 12-15 years ago. It's an unfair comparison.

And who exactly idolizes Saku around here? Nobody ever even talks about him lol.

 

[Liquidrob]

Mamba missed the point, go figure

 

[Steel Mamba]

NOBODY from the early 2000's would do as well today, including guys from the 2000's who are still fighting today, because the sport evolves at a ridiculous pace. That's why saying something like "how would Sakuraba do today against modern MW's?" is irrelevant and makes no sense. It doesn't matter, you can only compare guys to their competition.

It doesn't matter if Babe Ruth can hit Roy Halladay or if Oscar Robertson could average a triple double in 2012. All that matters is that both of those guys were dominant forces in their respective eras.

Just like Sakuraba, who fought all of the top names of his era, and beat everybody until his body broke down. And not only did he beat everybody, he did it without cutting an ounce of weight against guys bigger than him in many cases.

Saku didn't stop dominating simply because the sport evolved without him, he stopped dominating because he got old and broke down. Just like Liddell. Just like Frank Shamrock. Just like Coleman. Just like Wandy. Just like a million other guys, and just like what will eventually happen to every fighter unless they retire on top like Bas did and you never see the broken down version.

Just because Nick Lentz or Charlie Brenneman could go back in time with advanced skills and dominate does not make them better in the big picture than guys from 12-15 years ago. It's an unfair comparison.

And who exactly idolizes Saku around here? Nobody ever even talks about him lol.

Exactly. So why did u thank Robs post that says Saku would be a top fighter today and just as highly ranked? Obviously the game has passed him by and that wouldn't be the case.

Great fighters transcend eras, to an extent. I could list a lot of old school boxers as an example, but MMA is a different story and has evolved more rapidly.

lol @ the out of his prime excuse, how did I know that was coming. It's the easiest card to play whenever a legend starts losing.

You're telling me he got worn out as a pro fighter after just 3 years? Really???

Lets look at what he did though


Vernon White - Pretty good win for the time
Carlos Newton - " "
Vitor Belfort - A young Vitor, but still very explosive and lethal, but I think he became more refined later in his career. I'll still give him his due for that win.
Guy Mezger - I was never really too impressed with Guy.

Then of course the wins over the Gracies, which I don't know if they'd be all that impressive (aside from beating Royce) if it wasnt for the fact that he submitted them.


loss to Igor, beat Rampage and things were very rocky from then on.

HOF resume? Maybe.. A lock, is a bit overboard for him.

 

[LiquidLarry2GhostWF]

I'm going with the idea that it's a straight sports HOF where only the athletic accomplishments matter. The rest of the criteria is up to you guys, which is where the debates come in.

People, even players, make it into a sports Hall of Fame with credentials beyond athletic accomplishment to the sport.

Joe Namath?

I didn't even really think about Tito...I just assumed he's in. I know his resume isn't pristine, but to me, his contributions as a star to the sport transcend simply his resume. His resume is good, just a hair off of Hall of Fame, BUT, his contributions as a star of the sport put him in. Not first ballot or anything...but, if you had to tell the story of the league (or in this case, MMA), could you tell it without including Tito Ortiz?

I couldn't. So, he's in.

 

[Liquidrob]

Fans like you Mamba drive me nuts, no sense of history, no context, nothing, trying to apply todays standards for guys back than, makes zero sense

When you make statements like "never number 1 in his division?", what division? um, under 200 lbs? the division of fighting anyone? Sak was considered the best P4P fighter in the world along with Frank for years, Pride didnt even have a belt for Sak 'divison' until 2001 when Monsters like Wand and Rampage were around, Sak wasnt even near that weight class

When I mentioned his skill set, I wasnt saying Saku would dominate now, you have to translate that skill to todays game, if I gave you an example and said there was a guy who had endless cardio, amazing sub skills, one of the best low singles around and striking to hang with Vitor you would say "oh shit, who is this guy! and where can I watch him!"

You have no persepctive, you keep bringing up his '3 year run', well guess what, thats what it was like back than, how long was Royce run? 2 to 3 years, thats it, HOF lock, how long was Franks run? 3 years, HOF lock, thats how it was back than

So is Royce and Frank not HOF locks?

Than you try and dissect his wins from 97-2000, no context of who he fought at the time, Royce was one of the biggest wins you can have, it was myth busting shit, special rules hour and 30 minute fight, than you throw in a loss to Igor, you know one of the best HEAVYWEIGHTS ever and guess what, it was in the same night after fighting for an hour and 30 minutes, do you understand what that even means?

You're trying to judge guys like they are some athlete who gets 4 months to perpare, fights with no soccer kicks, stomps and have training camps with some of the best around, guys like Sak were fighting OPEN WEIGHT at 180 lbs, sometimes in tourneys, with crazy rules and hardly any weeks notice of who they were fighting, they just fought

You want knock a sub win over Renzo Gracie, yeah, a guy who was 9-1-1 "at the time" with wins finishes over Mo Smith a UFC champ and Oleg a UFC Tourney champ

Basically you have zero grasp of NHB/MMA of the time period and probably never will

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

I really can't even fathom a reasonable argument against Sakuraba being an all time great.

 

[Liquidrob]

It's not worth arguing though. I've been down this road many times before and it gets tiring trying to speak the truth about your idols. I caught a lot of shit for talking about Dana back on MM,..

LOL, yeah, you were really leading that charge...

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

LOL, yeah, you were really leading that charge...

I think he meant Brock.

 

[Steel Mamba]

I think he meant Brock.

bad memories, I wish I could pull up some of those posts.

 

[Steel Mamba]

Fans like you Mamba drive me nuts, no sense of history, no context, nothing, trying to apply todays standards for guys back than, makes zero sense

When you make statements like "never number 1 in his division?", what division? um, under 200 lbs? the division of fighting anyone? Sak was considered the best P4P fighter in the world along with Frank for years, Pride didnt even have a belt for Sak 'divison' until 2001 when Monsters like Wand and Rampage were around, Sak wasnt even near that weight class

When I mentioned his skill set, I wasnt saying Saku would dominate now, you have to translate that skill to todays game, if I gave you an example and said there was a guy who had endless cardio, amazing sub skills, one of the best low singles around and striking to hang with Vitor you would say "oh shit, who is this guy! and where can I watch him!"

You have no persepctive, you keep bringing up his '3 year run', well guess what, thats what it was like back than, how long was Royce run? 2 to 3 years, thats it, HOF lock, how long was Franks run? 3 years, HOF lock, thats how it was back than

So is Royce and Frank not HOF locks?

Than you try and dissect his wins from 97-2000, no context of who he fought at the time, Royce was one of the biggest wins you can have, it was myth busting shit, special rules hour and 30 minute fight, than you throw in a loss to Igor, you know one of the best HEAVYWEIGHTS ever and guess what, it was in the same night after fighting for an hour and 30 minutes, do you understand what that even means?

You're trying to judge guys like they are some athlete who gets 4 months to perpare, fights with no soccer kicks, stomps and have training camps with some of the best around, guys like Sak were fighting OPEN WEIGHT at 180 lbs, sometimes in tourneys, with crazy rules and hardly any weeks notice of who they were fighting, they just fought

You want knock a sub win over Renzo Gracie, yeah, a guy who was 9-1-1 "at the time" with wins finishes over Mo Smith a UFC champ and Oleg a UFC Tourney champ

Basically you have zero grasp of NHB/MMA of the time period and probably never will

I don't think Sak's striking would stand a chance against Vitor today. I don't think his single leg would be all that impressive against some of todays top wrestlers. Guess what, hes been active all this time so he can/could have done the same type of training that every other fighter is. Hendo has withstood the test of time, as has Vitor, Wand, and I would say that Frank even has as well etc. Sak's game just isn't suited for today's MMA. When you're talking about HOF I have to look at his ability along with his ENTIRE resume.

Also, you put some words in my mouth, but that's fine, I get it. Sakuraba was a great fighter during the early era of MMA, I'm not trying to take anything away from him. I guess I would look at him differently if he hasn't fought all the way up to now.

 

[Liquidrob]

Do you know who Saku has taken down with that single leg?

Rampage
Cro Cop
Wand

You know who couldnt hold Saku down while tryign to take him down? Kevin Randleman

 

[EmpireWF]

I don't think Sak's striking would stand a chance against Vitor today. I don't think his single leg would be all that impressive against some of todays top wrestlers.

What's any of that have to do with anything? Saku should have retired 2-3 years ago.

 

[Kuzzy Powers]

Sak is a beaten, battered, shell of his former self the last few years tho, so to me thats highly irrelevant to how elite he was in his prime. There was no fighter in the world you looked forward to seeing then Sak for a good 2-3 period man, I really dont think you're appreciating the significance of how good the guy was when he was at his best. Taking out a whole family of elite grapplers, by submission mind you, and beating Royce in that marathon match, forcing his corner to throw in the towel, its shit legends are made of man. Dude has wins over Carlos Newton (amazing fight), Vitor, Guy Mezger, Rampage, Kevin Randleman, when these guys were in their prime. The man was fighting guys he had no business fighting in terms of size, shit that would never go on today, so why compare it to today? Just doesnt make sense to me.

 

[Steel Mamba]

What's any of that have to do with anything? Saku should have retired 2-3 years ago.

ok. I don't think Sak's striking would be on par with Vitor's 2-3 years ago...

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

I don't think Sak's striking would stand a chance against Vitor today. I don't think his single leg would be all that impressive against some of todays top wrestlers. Guess what, hes been active all this time so he can/could have done the same type of training that every other fighter is. Hendo has withstood the test of time, as has Vitor, Wand, and I would say that Frank even has as well etc. Sak's game just isn't suited for today's MMA. When you're talking about HOF I have to look at his ability along with his ENTIRE resume.

Also, you put some words in my mouth, but that's fine, I get it. Sakuraba was a great fighter during the early era of MMA, I'm not trying to take anything away from him. I guess I would look at him differently if he hasn't fought all the way up to now.

Please stop.

Technically he's "active", but he's just as much an "active" MMA fighter as guys like Don Frye, Dan Severn, Ken Shamrock, etc. He's trotted out there as a gimmick performer for a promotion that lacks star power and needs him to draw the pathetic half full houses they manage to attract. Physically he was finished years ago, and he would have trouble getting sanctioned in the U.S. by any credible athletic commission.

Are you seriously going to discredit guys like Ken Shamrock or Don Frye or Saku for performance in fights long past their prime? I mean seriously, who cares? Do you knock Ali or Larry Holmes or Oscar or all of the other Hall of Fame boxers who bum hunted for years or looked bad while chasing checks long after they should have retired?

Here is a guy who took legendary beatings, and never did anything remotely close to modern high level training. His body was a shell years ago. I don't understand the mindset of discrediting a fighter's prime based on fights years later after his prime. Baffling how this would matter to you in the context of this conversation.

 

[Kuzzy Powers]

ok. I don't think Sak's striking would be on par with Vitor's 2-3 years ago...

Sak beat Vitor by decision after Vitor completely destroyed Vanderlei, and was considered to have the fastest, most dangerous hands on the planet at the time. He completely outclassed him to boot in that fight.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

What's any of that have to do with anything? Saku should have retired 2-3 years ago.

lol, he should have retired long before that

 

[Steel Mamba]

Please stop.

Technically he's "active", but he's just as much an "active" MMA fighter as guys like Don Frye, Dan Severn, Ken Shamrock, etc. He's trotted out there as a gimmick performer for a promotion that lacks star power and needs him to draw the pathetic half full houses they manage to attract. Physically he was finished years ago, and he would have trouble getting sanctioned in the U.S. by any credible athletic commission.

Are you seriously going to discredit guys like Ken Shamrock or Don Frye or Saku for performance in fights long past their prime? I mean seriously, who cares? Do you knock Ali or Larry Holmes or Oscar or all of the other Hall of Fame boxers who bum hunted for years or looked bad while chasing checks long after they should have retired?

Here is a guy who took legendary beatings, and never did anything remotely close to modern high level training. His body was a shell years ago. I don't understand the mindset of discrediting a fighter's prime based on fights years later after his prime. Baffling how this would matter to you in the context of this conversation.

I'm not trying to discredit him, I said that already. He was a great fighter in the early era of the sport.. What more do I have to say.